Mazda RX-VISION Concepts
11-07-2016, 04:58 PM
#1201
What am I doing here?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 2017 Miata RF Launch Edition
Posts: 3,606
Received 649 Likes
on
510 Posts
Yup, that's the one. Pretty sure that photo was from the same event since it has erikv's numbers and they co-drove.
Supposedly it was on eBay with a BIN price of $60k+ at one point but I don't know what they paid. Having ridden in it and seeing how little work was left to do (engineer a FSB mount and maybe swap in a taller final drive), $30k would be an AMAZING price. If Jason had said it was for sale for $40k I'd have been on my bank's website getting approval for the loan right there (lack of parking for 3 cars in downtown Chicago be damned!).
Supposedly it was on eBay with a BIN price of $60k+ at one point but I don't know what they paid. Having ridden in it and seeing how little work was left to do (engineer a FSB mount and maybe swap in a taller final drive), $30k would be an AMAZING price. If Jason had said it was for sale for $40k I'd have been on my bank's website getting approval for the loan right there (lack of parking for 3 cars in downtown Chicago be damned!).
11-07-2016, 05:05 PM
#1202
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yup, that's the one. Pretty sure that photo was from the same event since it has erikv's numbers and they co-drove.
Supposedly it was on eBay with a BIN price of $60k+ at one point but I don't know what they paid. Having ridden in it and seeing how little work was left to do (engineer a FSB mount and maybe swap in a taller final drive), $30k would be an AMAZING price. If Jason had said it was for sale for $40k I'd have been on my bank's website getting approval for the loan right there (lack of parking for 3 cars in downtown Chicago be damned!).
Supposedly it was on eBay with a BIN price of $60k+ at one point but I don't know what they paid. Having ridden in it and seeing how little work was left to do (engineer a FSB mount and maybe swap in a taller final drive), $30k would be an AMAZING price. If Jason had said it was for sale for $40k I'd have been on my bank's website getting approval for the loan right there (lack of parking for 3 cars in downtown Chicago be damned!).
Yeah IIRC, it was sold soon after it was built and then it was for sale again with a 60k list price, and the last time I saw it listed , it was online at some dealer in the 30k range.
11-08-2016, 12:40 AM
#1203
11-08-2016, 08:05 AM
#1204
40th anniversary Edition
NotaPreppie, For those have haven't studied their Mazda history, or who are not old enough to know better, Mazda established their brand in America with the rotary engine. At one time (before the first oil crisis in the seventies) the vast majority of all Mazdas sold in America were rotary powered from sedans to pickup trucks.
The rotary engine gave Mazda its identity and reputation, especially in racing where the RX7 is the winningest car in IMSA history (yes more than any single Porsche model, look it up).
American manufacturers had their crack at developing the rotary engine (GM had a four-rotor corvette on the drawing books). European manufactures had some success with a few pure prototypes (ex: the four rotor/369hp Mercedes C-111, which set some speed records) . But no other manufacturer could solve enough of the technical issues to make it practical. The technical advances and patents that Mazda has from nearly 50 years of rotaries, make Mazda the ONLY company that has both the will and the knowledge to keep the rotary alive. Mazda wont make its rotary car a range-extender, but will make it an upscale halo rotary sports car worthy of its heritage and importance to Mazda.
Those in love of LS swaps don't really get the rotary thing. That is fine. For the rest of us, nothing else can replace it, whether we have NA or FI.
The rotary engine gave Mazda its identity and reputation, especially in racing where the RX7 is the winningest car in IMSA history (yes more than any single Porsche model, look it up).
American manufacturers had their crack at developing the rotary engine (GM had a four-rotor corvette on the drawing books). European manufactures had some success with a few pure prototypes (ex: the four rotor/369hp Mercedes C-111, which set some speed records) . But no other manufacturer could solve enough of the technical issues to make it practical. The technical advances and patents that Mazda has from nearly 50 years of rotaries, make Mazda the ONLY company that has both the will and the knowledge to keep the rotary alive. Mazda wont make its rotary car a range-extender, but will make it an upscale halo rotary sports car worthy of its heritage and importance to Mazda.
Those in love of LS swaps don't really get the rotary thing. That is fine. For the rest of us, nothing else can replace it, whether we have NA or FI.
Last edited by gwilliams6; 11-08-2016 at 08:28 AM.
11-08-2016, 08:14 AM
#1205
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
suzuki had a single rotor motorcycle in production for 2-3yrs. its called the re5. so mazda wasnt the only company to produce a re vehicle
11-08-2016, 08:34 AM
#1206
40th anniversary Edition
And there were rotary-powered aircraft also, and dont forget the original German NSU rotary automobile, a great car to drive ,but unreliable ( I actual had the chance to drive one, owned by a friend) , made before Mazda had licensed its rotary. But Mazda is still the only successful mass producer of rotary automobiles.
Last edited by gwilliams6; 11-08-2016 at 08:39 AM.
11-08-2016, 08:54 AM
#1207
What am I doing here?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 2017 Miata RF Launch Edition
Posts: 3,606
Received 649 Likes
on
510 Posts
NotaPreppie, For those have haven't studied their Mazda history, or who are not old enough to know better, Mazda established their brand in America with the rotary engine. At one time (before the first oil crisis in the seventies) the vast majority of all Mazdas sold in America were rotary powered from sedans to pickup trucks.
If it's "They should keep doing it this way because they've always done it this way" then that's an informal logical fallacy known as an "appeal to antiquity" and it doesn't hold water.
If you're trying to explain the romanticized view on the rotary, it's not working. All it tells me is that Mazda want to keep beating a dead horse. I mean, there's a reason it hasn't been in their mainstream cars for a long time and hasn't been in production for 4+ years.
You keep clinging to past achievements and hoping that they'll translate somehow into a successful future plan. It's like the worn-out old high school football star that says his high school years were the best years of his life.
American manufacturers had their crack at developing the rotary engine (GM had a four-rotor corvette on the drawing books). European manufactures had some success with a few pure prototypes (ex: the four rotor/369hp Mercedes C-111, which set some speed records) . But no other manufacturer could solve enough of the technical issues to make it practical. The technical advances and patents that Mazda has from nearly 50 years of rotaries, make Mazda the ONLY company that has both the will and the knowledge to keep the rotary alive.
Seriously, companies with far larger R&D budgets won't even touch the concept. Maybe it's because the concept doesn't really work very well.
Mazda keep working on it because they don't know how to let go, not because it's somehow better or their engineers are demonstrably better than anybody else's engineers.
You're doing it again. You're making claims that you can't possibly back up with the available evidence. You should really stop doing that if you ever want people to take you seriously.
11-08-2016, 12:07 PM
#1208
Registered
And there were rotary-powered aircraft also, and dont forget the original German NSU rotary automobile, a great car to drive ,but unreliable ( I actual had the chance to drive one, owned by a friend) , made before Mazda had licensed its rotary. But Mazda is still the only successful mass producer of rotary automobiles.
They also made 3 (and some say even 4) rotor cars too...
And people still buy it now that it's almost 110k.
Just like they'll buy the (imho) 80k mkV Supra when it comes out.
If Nissan did it, why can't Mazda do it as well? Would a Mazda-badged GT-R sell any better or worse than the Nissan-badged GT-R?
Or does anyone think that a Nissan badge is more "upmarket" (or perhaps "prestigious") than a Mazda one?
It's not the price. It's the price vs content that matters. People buy the 110k GT-R because it is a bargain for the kind of performance it offers.
As long as the contents are there at a competitive price, the badge doesn't matter.
So the line:
Originally Posted by yomomspimp06
mazda doesn't have the rep to charge nearly as much as BMW does
11-08-2016, 01:03 PM
#1209
Lada also made some rotary powered cars. Mostly using copies of Mazda engines (1308cc anyone?).
They also made 3 (and some say even 4) rotor cars too...
What I meant is that no one thought Nissan could sell a car with a "Nissan" badge for 70k+... until Nissan came out with the 70k+ GT-R and people started buying it.
And people still buy it now that it's almost 110k.
Just like they'll buy the (imho) 80k mkV Supra when it comes out.
If Nissan did it, why can't Mazda do it as well? Would a Mazda-badged GT-R sell any better or worse than the Nissan-badged GT-R?
Or does anyone think that a Nissan badge is more "upmarket" (or perhaps "prestigious") than a Mazda one?
It's not the price. It's the price vs content that matters. People buy the 110k GT-R because it is a bargain for the kind of performance it offers.
As long as the contents are there at a competitive price, the badge doesn't matter.
So the line:
can be coutered just by looking at past history of similar japanese brands. People can and do spend more-than-BMW money on less-upmarket brands.
They also made 3 (and some say even 4) rotor cars too...
What I meant is that no one thought Nissan could sell a car with a "Nissan" badge for 70k+... until Nissan came out with the 70k+ GT-R and people started buying it.
And people still buy it now that it's almost 110k.
Just like they'll buy the (imho) 80k mkV Supra when it comes out.
If Nissan did it, why can't Mazda do it as well? Would a Mazda-badged GT-R sell any better or worse than the Nissan-badged GT-R?
Or does anyone think that a Nissan badge is more "upmarket" (or perhaps "prestigious") than a Mazda one?
It's not the price. It's the price vs content that matters. People buy the 110k GT-R because it is a bargain for the kind of performance it offers.
As long as the contents are there at a competitive price, the badge doesn't matter.
So the line:
can be coutered just by looking at past history of similar japanese brands. People can and do spend more-than-BMW money on less-upmarket brands.
11-08-2016, 03:27 PM
#1210
///// Upscale Zoom-Zoom
The biggest issue with the GT-R is no manual option and the cost of ownership is "Yuge". I can purchase extra engines and have them at my ready for the cost of 2-3 years of ownership + required maintenance.
11-08-2016, 04:18 PM
#1212
40th anniversary Edition
Just wait for it folks, it is coming and then all rotary lovers will be happy and finally we can agree on something in this forum. Or maybe that is impossible for this forum . LOL
11-08-2016, 04:45 PM
#1213
Registered
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Exactly. I think the bad rep of the rotary engine itself is more of the issue. Sometimes I really wonder what Mazda could do if they wanted to produce a high performance sports car with a "regular" engine in it, but I guarantee we'll never find out.
11-08-2016, 05:28 PM
#1214
Registered
And there were rotary-powered aircraft also, and dont forget the original German NSU rotary automobile, a great car to drive ,but unreliable ( I actual had the chance to drive one, owned by a friend) , made before Mazda had licensed its rotary. But Mazda is still the only successful mass producer of rotary automobiles.
11-08-2016, 06:53 PM
#1215
It's not the price. It's the price vs content that matters. People buy the 110k GT-R because it is a bargain for the kind of performance it offers.
As long as the contents are there at a competitive price, the badge doesn't matter.
can be coutered just by looking at past history of similar japanese brands. People can and do spend more-than-BMW money on less-upmarket brands.
As long as the contents are there at a competitive price, the badge doesn't matter.
can be coutered just by looking at past history of similar japanese brands. People can and do spend more-than-BMW money on less-upmarket brands.
11-11-2016, 03:02 AM
#1216
/\ Don't disagree with you there.. 
I will keep saying this until I am blue in the face....NOT to have ANY 6 cylinder engine in their range is just DUMB, no other word, it is brand and marketing suicide.
Yes the 2.5T 4 cylinder is a fantastic engine, but in the end it is still a 4 cylinder.
The perception is that it is a 4 cylinder BUZZ BOX.
Mazda Japan has the CAD and CND Machines which could easily engineer and make a 6 cylinder Skyactiv Engine, my guess is a total cost of around $10 million USD to tool and then homologate and certify. Mazda would make that initial cost back in 12 months.
6 Cylinder Skyactiv Engines would sell extremely well in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, parts of South America, Mexico, Russia, and China as it will be a superb quiet and fuel efficient engine. Would easily install in Mazda 6, CX-9.
I seriously doubt the competence of Management in MMC Japan, what is wrong with their board?
Just make them and you WILL sell thousands....DO IT!...
I will keep saying this until I am blue in the face....NOT to have ANY 6 cylinder engine in their range is just DUMB, no other word, it is brand and marketing suicide.
Yes the 2.5T 4 cylinder is a fantastic engine, but in the end it is still a 4 cylinder.
The perception is that it is a 4 cylinder BUZZ BOX.
Mazda Japan has the CAD and CND Machines which could easily engineer and make a 6 cylinder Skyactiv Engine, my guess is a total cost of around $10 million USD to tool and then homologate and certify. Mazda would make that initial cost back in 12 months.
6 Cylinder Skyactiv Engines would sell extremely well in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, parts of South America, Mexico, Russia, and China as it will be a superb quiet and fuel efficient engine. Would easily install in Mazda 6, CX-9.
I seriously doubt the competence of Management in MMC Japan, what is wrong with their board?
Just make them and you WILL sell thousands....DO IT!...
The illustrated engine is six cylinders has two inlet ports per cyl and two exhaust ports and superchargeing not shown I have seen the twin port in a recent patent.
Someone else can get the link to work
11-11-2016, 08:20 AM
#1217
What am I doing here?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 2017 Miata RF Launch Edition
Posts: 3,606
Received 649 Likes
on
510 Posts
/\ Don't disagree with you there..
I will keep saying this until I am blue in the face....NOT to have ANY 6 cylinder engine in their range is just DUMB, no other word, it is brand and marketing suicide.
Yes the 2.5T 4 cylinder is a fantastic engine, but in the end it is still a 4 cylinder.
The perception is that it is a 4 cylinder BUZZ BOX.
...
6 Cylinder Skyactiv Engines would sell extremely well in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, parts of South America, Mexico, Russia, and China as it will be a superb quiet and fuel efficient engine. Would easily install in Mazda 6, CX-9.
I will keep saying this until I am blue in the face....NOT to have ANY 6 cylinder engine in their range is just DUMB, no other word, it is brand and marketing suicide.
Yes the 2.5T 4 cylinder is a fantastic engine, but in the end it is still a 4 cylinder.
The perception is that it is a 4 cylinder BUZZ BOX.
...
6 Cylinder Skyactiv Engines would sell extremely well in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, parts of South America, Mexico, Russia, and China as it will be a superb quiet and fuel efficient engine. Would easily install in Mazda 6, CX-9.
I'd love to see Mazda revive and modernize the K-series V6 engines if for no other reason than it would be hysterical.
Admittedly, a spiritual successor to the K-series may not be a bad idea. Make it a 2.5L narrow-angle (like VW's VR-series) and a single turbo. Granted, the conrods will be a little narrow and the valvetrain a little cramped. I don't know if it's possible to do VVT with so little space in the head. You know, maybe this is a bad idea...
I think Mark Baruth at TTAC had a good article that is pertinent here (ignore the political click-bait title and first few paragraphs, there is good automotive info in there):
Bark's Bites: The Popular Vote Doesn't Matter
Mazda are trying to (at least partially) rebrand themselves as the fun-to-drive alternative to the boring econobox that is still economical. They're got some good contenders with the 3 and the CX-5 but the 2 just got shipped off to Toyota and the CX-3 will probably only ever be a niche player. The 6 and CX-9 are just there to round out the team but I doubt they'll ever be big volume compared to their other models (and we aren't even considering comparing them to the real volume players).
This is the niche that Mazda are carving out for themselves and it looks like it's intentional. If the currency markets start looking more favorable and if they can bank enough cash to be comfortable (or alliances to borrow technology), they may try to grow the brand beyond its niche. But I don't see it happening any time soon.
11-13-2016, 07:32 PM
#1218
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Well according to a Nikkei, Mazda Diesels are coming to USA next year 2017!!!
In CX-5 and 6.
Exclusive: Mazda to introduce its first diesel models in US- Nikkei Asian Review
In CX-5 and 6.
Exclusive: Mazda to introduce its first diesel models in US- Nikkei Asian Review
11-14-2016, 08:08 AM
#1220
Rockie Mountain Newbie
Ahh, the infamous "Maybe next summer" line from Mazda.
We have all heard that one before.
I think at this point I would rather have the Turbo 2.5 Gasoline engine, anyway, as long as it came in a Signature Series trim level of the CX-5.
BC.
We have all heard that one before.
I think at this point I would rather have the Turbo 2.5 Gasoline engine, anyway, as long as it came in a Signature Series trim level of the CX-5.
BC.
11-15-2016, 05:26 PM
#1221
I think a lot of disgruntled VW owners will at least give them a test drive, then they will probably be won over by how nice they drive and it will increase the sales. I hope anyway, means more moneys for the next Rx.
11-17-2016, 02:04 PM
#1222
Registered
Mazda working on "fundamental and structure issues of rotary engine", no electrified RX model
2016 LA Motor Show: Mazda rotary engine to return in 2019
- So, Mazda 2 EV in 2019, likely with the RE range extender option.
- As for the Rx, it will come back, but no timeframe given (as usual
).
- “completely new technology” for the new generation SkyActiv rotary engine, with the ignition system one area of focus. HCCI?
- No decision had yet been made on whether to employ turbocharging. Maybe Mazda is unsure whether to embrace the high-revving nature of the rotary with an NA engine or whether to go for the "safer" option of using a turbo. One hopes that both approaches are being developed in parallel for now.
- No hybrid for the new rotary, at least initially. Maybe at a later time when regulations become more restrictive and if battery technology improves enough
One quote says "Turbochargers is one of the possibilities for our smaller rotary engines". Does it mean that there are also larger rotary engines?
2016 LA Motor Show: Mazda rotary engine to return in 2019
- So, Mazda 2 EV in 2019, likely with the RE range extender option.
- As for the Rx, it will come back, but no timeframe given (as usual
).- “completely new technology” for the new generation SkyActiv rotary engine, with the ignition system one area of focus. HCCI?
- No decision had yet been made on whether to employ turbocharging. Maybe Mazda is unsure whether to embrace the high-revving nature of the rotary with an NA engine or whether to go for the "safer" option of using a turbo. One hopes that both approaches are being developed in parallel for now.
- No hybrid for the new rotary, at least initially. Maybe at a later time when regulations become more restrictive and if battery technology improves enough
One quote says "Turbochargers is one of the possibilities for our smaller rotary engines". Does it mean that there are also larger rotary engines?
11-17-2016, 02:10 PM
#1223
The reason it has taken so long (Mazda built its last production car rotary engine in 2008 with the final RX-8), is due to the fundamental challenges of the Wankel engine.
These journalists are just awesome.
