gwilliams6

Mazda execs have said that their performance target is the Porsche Cayman. Here are some listed specs.

2016 Porsche Cayman
Luxury vehicle
9.3/10U.S. News Best Cars
5/5Edmunds.com
8.8/10The Car Connection
MSRP: From $52,600 to $64,100
Horsepower: 275 to 385 hp
Curb weight: 2,888 to 2,965 lbs
MPG: Up to 22 city / 32 highway

Expect any new RX7/RXVision to target the same potential markets. Mazda will surely aim to undercut the Cayman's price and weight, while matching or surpassing its performance, but it will still be priced for folks who can afford a top-performing two-seat sports car costing more than an RX8. It will be Mazda's halo car and fits into Mazda's stated goal of moving the brand upscale.

Mazda can't afford to, and won't ever abandon its lucrative lower cost-high value , high volume product line, that is its corporate lifeblood. But Mazda also wants a piece of the high end market ,just like other Japanese automakers have. And Mazda wants to recapture its heart,which is the rotary.

I believe Mazda wants a car to reflect the ultimate in its unique rotary engineering prowess. A car that will attract well-heeled buyers to the brand who never considered Mazda before. Don't despair, we will still see the best of the skyactive 3s, 6s, CXs and MX5s. The MX5 will certainly remain Mazda's affordable sports car leader. We might still see a newer Mazdaspeed 3 GT ,or some other use of the turbo skyactive piston engine.

Back in 1992 ,my FD RX7 touring model fully loaded came in with a new car sticker of close to $38,000. And that car could compete with Porsches. Mazda is not looking for huge volume sales in its new RX, but Mazda wants to create a worthy new standard-bearer, and it won't be at the price point of an RX8.

Yes that higher price point will knock many present rotary enthusiasts out of the market. but Mazda hopes to pick up some of these and some new buyers too. More than anything,Mazda will want this ultimately most tested and most cutting-edge engineered rotary car to be reliable, to perform and to inspire. Mazda wants this car to spark its return to racing rotaries, where the rotary's record of success is legendary.

(Mazda's desire to return to rotary racing was noted from a Mazda execs words in one of the recent articles about the RXVision linked in this thread)

wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

A $50,000 Mazda RX-7?

They tried going high-priced once. Fantastic car. Nearly killed the company.

They tried an everyman's RX-7 once. It was a raging success and still popular today on the street and race track.

Are they really so stupid they have to learn these lessons over again?

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hornbm

iTrader: (1)

The FD was almost 50k in 1993... 50K in today's dollars is not the same thing.

I'd also argue that while the FB and FD are still popular today, the FD has obtained legendary status. One of the best looking and best handling cars of all time. The price is on par or many times above what the RX-8 is fetching in the used market today.

The FD didn't sell well new in the US market, but it did very well in Japan.

It's a different world today, and a properly built and specced expensive Mazda flagship car will sell. An expensive Japanese sports car was a tough sell in the early 90s. Not today.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Any rotary is a tough sale, especially at that price point. Mazda had it's chance to redeem itself with the rotary and failed.

fmzambon

This.

Does Mazda want to build a car that sells reasonably well for, say, 8 to 10 years or does Mazda want to build a car that can help them sell cars for 30+ years with its reputation?

GracefulShanks

Pure speculation but if the price tag is north of $50k and as someone hinted that there will not be hybrid technology to help low end torque, then that would lead me to think that it's going to be a 3 (depending on how far north of $50k, maybe 4) rotor to justify the high price. If that's true, maybe the new drive train is modular enough to where two rotor engines can be mass produced a year or two after this "halo car" is introduced into the market.

Wishful thinking, but a guy can dream...

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

Will not be a 4 rotor. Very very unlikely to be a 3 rotor (honestly, not going to happen either).

The 16x design has more torque than the 13b variants. How much? we'll find out. It will also be turbo charged.

hornbm

iTrader: (1)

A 2 rotor isn't going to cut it at that price point IMHO. It needs to at least be a 3 rotor; an engine worthy of the car.

If you look at the dimensions of the rx-vision concept, the amount of space between the dash and the front axle just screams that it's meant for more than a 2 rotor.

fmzambon

Get out of my brain, NOW!

My thoughts exactly.

Having a 2 rotor engine at that price point (even if turbo) would be an anticlimax, so to speak. More or less like the Alfa Romeo 4C or the new Boxster and Cayman: I mean, 50k+ price and just 4 cylinders?

Also, a multi rotor engine would give the car a unique sound, which could be another differentiating point from all of the other competing sports cars on the market.

By the way, if a target of the new car is the McLaren 570S, as Mazda was caught comparing a test mule to, then the price may be MUCH higher than 50k.
Think about GT-R price. At least.

wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

If you think they can do more than 2 rotors and pass future emissions and economy standards, you understand neither rotaries nor physics.

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hornbm

iTrader: (1)

Since you are so well informed about the subject, why don't you tell us more about the fuel economy and emissions performance of Mazda's current non public rotary prototypes?

GracefulShanks

Rotor deactivation is feasible for emissions and efficiency purposes. In interviews, Mazda said they have made great strides in addressing both of these areas.

Are-Ex-Eight

iTrader: (1)

Future emissions and economy standards don't exist.

That said, I would be incredibly surprised if it were anything other than some sort of charged version of the 16x.

zoom44

no it's not.

wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

Allow me to rephrase.

If you think they can do more than 2 rotors and pass current emissions and economy standards, you understand neither rotaries nor physics.

I do agree that in the event there is a future rotary, it will have to be forced induction and larger displacement rotors.
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gwilliams6

FYI The FD was Not 50k in 1993. A fully loaded touring model was around $38k. I know i had a new one then.

sinkas

Why is that, because you cant currently decompress a rotor at will?

NotAPreppie

I think the $50k number is after inflation. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, $35k in 1993 is roughly the same as $58k in 2016.

So, if they wanted to recreate a premium, top-end FD today it would cost between $50k-$60k.

Of course, this estimation is based solely on the Consumer Price Index and may not include the difference in values between the US Dollar and JP Yen or other factors (like relative weighting of food versus cars).

zoom44

you can't cut off a whole rotor because of thermal and balance issues. you could run an ignition scheme which does not fuel or fire particular faces in a staggered order that keeps the thermal, balance and nvh in control but you still have the fact that we don't have valves. plus light load/steady rpm where it makes sense to use variable displacement on large piston engines is actually where the rotary is fairly efficient already.

gwilliams6

Notapreppie, OP hornbm does not talk about inflation numbers in his post.
I agree the next RX7/RXVision could be close to $50k or more, but I think Mazda will want to come in just at, or even below $50k to make their car a greater bargain than their top flight sport car competitor's .

NotAPreppie

I never said he did. I only offered it as a possible source and expected others to fill in the gaps about the adjusted numbers being conflated with the non-adjusted numbers.

Also, I seriously doubt the next RX is going to go on sale at or below $50k with a rotary as sole motive power. Partly because I doubt they can meet the stringent emissions regulations that didn't exist back in the 90's but mostly because I seriously doubt it's going to go on sale at all.

Yes, gwilliams6, before you send me another PM tantrum, if I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

77mjd

If it is true that Mazda was able to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 275-300hp NA from the 16x, why not have a 35-40kish entry level car, then add the turbo for the more upscale 50-60k Cayman killer?

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

Don't be disappointed when it's only a 2 rotor. There is a disproportionate chance that it will be a 2 rotor only. Speculation on the price doesn't mean a thing to me. I don't care if it's $80k... odds are still vastly in favor of it being a 2 rotor, 1.6l engine.

I would be more surprised that they made something other than a 2 rotor than if they didn't.

gwilliams6

I don't ever need to send you a pm tantrum, you do a great job, on your own, in looking like you are having a tantrum often when you post.

BTW Mazda execs have said they just about have the emissions issue solved,and that means solved for the new tougher worldwide standards. I know you won't believe anything until you see it in person. That is fine. For me,I am betting on the Mazda engineers to solve all the issues and come out with a winner. We will see who got it right in the end. LOL

NotAPreppie

Oh really?