Mazda RX-VISION Concepts
09-03-2016, 01:47 PM
#1026
Bwahahahaahahhhahhaa!
Tomorrow's my 42nd birthday, but thanks the great laugh a day early!
How many vehicles in Mazda's complete history have they released in the 400 hp range, that were not dedicated race cars?
Hell, let's make a separate group just for their race cars, just to see how many of their 2 rotor engines can hit the 400 hp mark.
400 hp is a number pulled out of someone's smelly, hemorrhoid plagued ***.
The only way a future rotary powered car (if one ever makes it to production that is) is going to have 400 hp is when someone stuffs an LS3 into it.
BC.
Tomorrow's my 42nd birthday, but thanks the great laugh a day early!
How many vehicles in Mazda's complete history have they released in the 400 hp range, that were not dedicated race cars?
Hell, let's make a separate group just for their race cars, just to see how many of their 2 rotor engines can hit the 400 hp mark.
400 hp is a number pulled out of someone's smelly, hemorrhoid plagued ***.
The only way a future rotary powered car (if one ever makes it to production that is) is going to have 400 hp is when someone stuffs an LS3 into it.
BC.
Look up some old best motoring videos fds on stock internals.
search rx7club.com plenty of 400hp examples on stock port engines
Last edited by comebackqid; 09-03-2016 at 02:57 PM.
09-04-2016, 08:57 AM
#1029
Rockie Mountain Newbie
Quick question for you.
Did you actually read my post?
Did you understand the words that were written?
How many of the vehicles you want me to look at were released at the 400 hp mark, BY MAZDA, from the factory, when you could originally buy them at a dealership?
HOW MANY?
I was not asking how many cars people took a ball peen hammer and a chisel to, and made 400 hp with, I asked for STOCK, brand new, just rolled off the assembly line condition.
And you knew this, but you ignored it, just so you could post.
Why?
Did you think your retort was going to make me say "Oh my, I didn't know that Mazda released cars that HAD 400 hp from the factory. You are so much smarter than me, please be my best buddy."
Nope, no chance of that happening.
I just can't understand what you were thinking when you decided to post your "proof".
You are going to be so disappointed when Mazda doesn't release a car with 400 hp. I'm so sorry for you.
BC.
09-04-2016, 01:09 PM
#1030
You are not paying attention to Mazda's history.
They have never built a car in the Pony Car market. They are not going to start now. So forget about 400 hp ANYTHING from them.
If they build a new sports car, look at the market they will decide to compete in.
It will either be the low end market, which contains the BRZ, the mid level market that contains the Nissan Z, or the very bottom of the high end sports car market, which is the BMW M2, Alfa 4C, or Cayman, Boxster.
Bottom end of market - ~200 hp. Very easy to achieve. Give you decent reliability, and not too hard of a struggle to meet emissions requirements.
Price range - $30k to $35k.
Mid level market - ~325 hp. Challenge for Mazda, as they have NEVER built a rotary engine to this power level before, and sold it on the market. Reliability and emissions are harder to meet.
Price range - $40k to $45k.
Bottom end of the high end market - 235 to 365 hp. This actually is an easier segment to build an engine for, because it is WAY closer to what they have done previously.
235 hp is very easy, emissions and reliability should be MUCH better than the Series I engine.
275 hp Mazda has previously done. Emissions should be way better than the end of the RX-7 days, along with reliability improvements. May not even need turbo this time.
300 hp is a stretch goal. Can they do it? Most likely. Can it meet reliability or emissions goals? Who knows.
Price range - $40k to $45k.
If they are building a car to compete against the 4C, then they can aim for 250 hp, and keep the weight around 2500 lbs. Just make a fixed top MX-5 chassis, and extend the frame a little bit for a smidge more room behind the front seats. Price range - $45k to $50k.
If they were building an M2 competitor, then they would aim at 300 hp, and pretty much you would have a new RX-8, with weight around the 2800 lbs mark. 4 seats, comfort, and high quality driving experience. Price range - $45k to $50k.
If they were aiming at the Base level Boxster and Cayman, then 275 hp is the target, 2 seat car, on a MX-5 chassis with more legroom, and most likely weight around 2700 lbs. Price range - $45k to $50k.
That's all they need to build to have a car that competes on paper with these 5 cars. Nothing more.
Which price range do you want to pay for?
BC.
They have never built a car in the Pony Car market. They are not going to start now. So forget about 400 hp ANYTHING from them.
If they build a new sports car, look at the market they will decide to compete in.
It will either be the low end market, which contains the BRZ, the mid level market that contains the Nissan Z, or the very bottom of the high end sports car market, which is the BMW M2, Alfa 4C, or Cayman, Boxster.
Bottom end of market - ~200 hp. Very easy to achieve. Give you decent reliability, and not too hard of a struggle to meet emissions requirements.
Price range - $30k to $35k.
Mid level market - ~325 hp. Challenge for Mazda, as they have NEVER built a rotary engine to this power level before, and sold it on the market. Reliability and emissions are harder to meet.
Price range - $40k to $45k.
Bottom end of the high end market - 235 to 365 hp. This actually is an easier segment to build an engine for, because it is WAY closer to what they have done previously.
235 hp is very easy, emissions and reliability should be MUCH better than the Series I engine.
275 hp Mazda has previously done. Emissions should be way better than the end of the RX-7 days, along with reliability improvements. May not even need turbo this time.
300 hp is a stretch goal. Can they do it? Most likely. Can it meet reliability or emissions goals? Who knows.
Price range - $40k to $45k.
If they are building a car to compete against the 4C, then they can aim for 250 hp, and keep the weight around 2500 lbs. Just make a fixed top MX-5 chassis, and extend the frame a little bit for a smidge more room behind the front seats. Price range - $45k to $50k.
If they were building an M2 competitor, then they would aim at 300 hp, and pretty much you would have a new RX-8, with weight around the 2800 lbs mark. 4 seats, comfort, and high quality driving experience. Price range - $45k to $50k.
If they were aiming at the Base level Boxster and Cayman, then 275 hp is the target, 2 seat car, on a MX-5 chassis with more legroom, and most likely weight around 2700 lbs. Price range - $45k to $50k.
That's all they need to build to have a car that competes on paper with these 5 cars. Nothing more.
Which price range do you want to pay for?
BC.
Bottom end of market contains 1 commercially successful entrant: the Miata. The BRZ/FRS twins sell in small numbers, like less than 1k each and I betcha won't get a second gen. I doubt it's been a financially successful venture for them.
Your horsepower numbers are ignoring the march of time. Your numbers would have been competitive in 2012, or maybe today. Not 2020. 300hp is the base hp number for a base Boxster, today, base price $56k and a base price Boxster does not exsist. They are all 65k+
For the RX to compete, it will have to offer equal or better specs than established brands at that price.
The majority of car purchasers have proven that the 'driving experience' is not particularly valuable to them. This is why 'drivers cars' die: for the same $$, you can 'have more' and go faster and/or have a bigger car. American car buyers have cast this vote many times. That's why I offered the examples of S2k, Elise, Rx8, 4c, etc. Superb drivers cars, dead or dying. The Miata is the only enduring exception, and it's sales numbers are way down. Look at BMW, the traitors! their car driving experience is now pretty sucky. Car buyers pay for space, speed, bragging rights, brand perception.
For the RX to be a commercial success it must offer these qualities. We assume (hope) Mazda will make it a 'driver's car'.
I stick by the 400hp target as a 'must have' not for the experience, but for the marketing. I personally would go as high as about $50k; beyond that I'd hold out for a proven, 5th gen (by then) midengine, superb Cayman.
09-05-2016, 08:58 AM
#1031
Rockie Mountain Newbie
If you want a bare Cayman with no or very few options, you either have to locate one of the very few ones that a dealer orders, scattered all across the country, or you have to custom order your car to your spartan spec.
As a member of a few Porsche Cayman/Boxster forums, there are quite a few spartan build cars on the forums, and those owners are just as proud of their cars as the ones who stuff their car full of options. They also tend to keep their cars longer than the average Cayman owner, too.
Mazda builds their entire lineup for those few car buyers who wants a "driver's car" in their driveway, compared to their competition. The whole purpose of the Miata is to be a drivers car in its purest form.
Well, that, and the fact that the average buyer of a Miata is older, more educated, and wealthier than your average BRZ buyer, and that what they really want for their mid life crisis machine is a convertible, but that's all besides the point.
This has been, and always will be the Mazda way of building a sports car.
This is Mazda we're talking about.
The one car company who has never been able to put together a decent marketing message in I seriously don't know how long.
Try and think of all the times in Mazda's history where their marketing message was "We make the most hp out of all of our competition".
Now compare that with how often they talk about being a "Driver's Car" car company.
Now tell me, do you REALLY BELIEVE hp will ever be a focus point of marketing a product of theirs?
But, it doesn't need to be a 400 hp machine in order to do it.
And if you look at the way Mazda has done business over their history, you will know that they are not going to change the way they do things at this time.
Not for marketing, and not for HP junkies.
BC.
09-05-2016, 09:30 AM
#1032
Rockie Mountain Newbie
300hp is the base hp number for a base Boxster, today, base price $56k and a base price Boxster does not exsist. They are all 65k+.
I stick by the 400hp target as a 'must have' not for the experience, but for the marketing. I personally would go as high as about $50k; beyond that I'd hold out for a proven, 5th gen (by then) midengine, superb Cayman.
I stick by the 400hp target as a 'must have' not for the experience, but for the marketing. I personally would go as high as about $50k; beyond that I'd hold out for a proven, 5th gen (by then) midengine, superb Cayman.
The Porsche Cayman is the penultimate Driver's Car.
In it's top form, the GT-4, it does not make 400 hp.
And the top form also STARTS at $85k (hahahahahahahahhhhahaaaa!).
Porsche's bread and butter car, the 911, makes 370 hp, and starts at $89,400.
Mazda isn't making a 400 hp car.
The hp target is somewhere between 250 and 275.
Light weight will help them compete against a base Cayman with 300 hp in overall performance.
A nicer interior will help them compete against the FR-S and BRZ, and the sad sack 4C with 200 to 240 hp.
A nicer exterior design will help them compete against the BMW 2 series.
BC.
09-05-2016, 10:00 AM
#1033
^ Agreed. You obviously "get" Mazda's motoring philosophy, particularly as it pertains to sports cars. Sadly, most here don't.
Last edited by New Yorker; 09-05-2016 at 10:04 AM.
09-06-2016, 07:56 AM
#1035
Rockie Mountain Newbie
Nor the Furai as a Halo car, to compete against the Ford GT, Nissan GTR, etc.
There are very few car companies that spend research and development dollars on an entire engine design, who then just decide to leave a perfectly operational engine shelved. The 16X must not have met some criteria they felt was critical 10 years ago.
Besides, SkyActiv is a different design philosophy.
HP most likely isn't their target anymore, torque, economy and reduced emissions is. If it revs slower, runs cleaner, but makes more torque, and lasts longer, that's a true win situation for Mazda.
BC.
09-06-2016, 08:19 AM
#1036
And I completely forgot to mention this one last fact:
The Porsche Cayman is the penultimate Driver's Car.
In it's top form, the GT-4, it does not make 400 hp.
And the top form also STARTS at $85k (hahahahahahahahhhhahaaaa!).
Porsche's bread and butter car, the 911, makes 370 hp, and starts at $89,400.
Mazda isn't making a 400 hp car.
The hp target is somewhere between 250 and 275.
The Porsche Cayman is the penultimate Driver's Car.
In it's top form, the GT-4, it does not make 400 hp.
And the top form also STARTS at $85k (hahahahahahahahhhhahaaaa!).
Porsche's bread and butter car, the 911, makes 370 hp, and starts at $89,400.
Mazda isn't making a 400 hp car.
The hp target is somewhere between 250 and 275.
What will be the 2020 Cayman/Boxster/911 hp numbers?
The FD at the time of it's release had similar numbers and better performance than the direct competition. If Mazda is truly making a Halo car, they'll have to do that again. I could be wrong. But I bet I'm right.
Crisp $20 says it's within 10% of 400hp
what's your wager?
09-06-2016, 10:02 AM
#1039
of course, no RX, no bet!Sadly, I'm almost willing to bet there will be no RX at all by 2020... but I don't like to bet on sad things.
09-06-2016, 10:59 AM
#1040
The problem with all the arguments against a 400hp engine from Mazda are the previous rotaries were smaller. An increase in displacement means an increase in HP. They got 230 hp on a N/A 1.3 liter, so I have no problem believing they can get 300hp out of a NA 1.6 liter. Add a turbo to that and they can put out 400hp easily. Now I don't think they will. I think it will be 350hp and a big jump in torque. They seem to want to work on drivability more than top end power. Reduce weight, around ~300 lb-ft of torque, 350 hp and you will have an amazing car.
09-06-2016, 11:23 AM
#1042
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Too bad that they never decided to put that into production.
Nor the Furai as a Halo car, to compete against the Ford GT, Nissan GTR, etc.
There are very few car companies that spend research and development dollars on an entire engine design, who then just decide to leave a perfectly operational engine shelved. The 16X must not have met some criteria they felt was critical 10 years ago.
Besides, SkyActiv is a different design philosophy.
HP most likely isn't their target anymore, torque, economy and reduced emissions is. If it revs slower, runs cleaner, but makes more torque, and lasts longer, that's a true win situation for Mazda.
BC.
Nor the Furai as a Halo car, to compete against the Ford GT, Nissan GTR, etc.
There are very few car companies that spend research and development dollars on an entire engine design, who then just decide to leave a perfectly operational engine shelved. The 16X must not have met some criteria they felt was critical 10 years ago.
Besides, SkyActiv is a different design philosophy.
HP most likely isn't their target anymore, torque, economy and reduced emissions is. If it revs slower, runs cleaner, but makes more torque, and lasts longer, that's a true win situation for Mazda.
BC.
Also: the Furai? That was a concept car based on a Le Mans LMP2 chassis with a 20B running on E100. No way that's going into production.
09-06-2016, 02:14 PM
#1044
Administrator
you misunderstand. i wrote "16x form" for a reason. they have never stopped trying to put that "form" into production. there have been changes over time based on their testing and engineering and goals. the current form with the swapped placement of intake and exhaust is built on the taller narrower "stroker" 16x form.
and i should point out they engineers have been told it doesn't HAVE to be a 2 rotor...
and the race cars like the Star/Pro Mazda Series and Bob Bondurant School cars were actually dynoing out at 250- 260 at the crank.
Last edited by zoom44; 09-06-2016 at 02:30 PM. Reason: clean up
09-06-2016, 10:35 PM
#1045
718 cayman/boxster will be done in 2019 so 2020 will be a new model and probably a new engine and standard to chase so even at the base level now in 2020 9 times out of 10 its going to be higher than the current base level so a 275hp car will not get the job done if it's under powered I don't care how great the driving dynamics (but miata, that's another story) are its still going to be niche market. I don't see why mazda wouldn't want to make sales and broaden the appeal of a rotary sports car.
09-06-2016, 10:49 PM
#1046
Guns, God, and Country
Because the rotary reputation is **** with all potential buyers except a few purists. They had their chance at redemption with the RX-8 and blew it.
Last edited by redcivic; 09-07-2016 at 09:45 AM.
09-07-2016, 06:44 AM
#1047
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718 cayman/boxster will be done in 2019 so 2020 will be a new model and probably a new engine and standard to chase so even at the base level now in 2020 9 times out of 10 its going to be higher than the current base level so a 275hp car will not get the job done if it's under powered I don't care how great the driving dynamics (but miata, that's another story) are its still going to be niche market. I don't see why mazda wouldn't want to make sales and broaden the appeal of a rotary sports car.
09-07-2016, 03:10 PM
#1048
Rockie Mountain Newbie
That's a pretty wide margin.
But for $20, I will state the engine, if it's a N/A twin rotor, and installed in a mass produced sports car for $45k and under, and hits the world market by October 15th 2020, will not be over 375 hp. Can't be a Japan only one-off pre-production machine.
No precedent in Mazda's history, and I will back that up.
BC.
09-07-2016, 05:10 PM
#1049
Life After 8000 RPM: Lotus Elise and Mazda RX-8 - Automobile Magazine
And that's a fact. Sorry if it doesn't jive with your "rotary is ****" view of the world. Fortunately, folks like you won't be the ones determining the future of the rotary engine.
09-07-2016, 05:57 PM
#1050
In other news toyota is back at it MK5 supra? Yes!
2018 2019 Toyota Supra Forum FT-1 Concept MKV Generation: Supramkv.com
2018 2019 Toyota Supra Forum FT-1 Concept MKV Generation: Supramkv.com