Mazda RX-VISION Concepts
01-14-2016, 01:12 PM
#651
40th anniversary Edition
I agree 77mid they can't have both. Mazda execs were asked and said that they were aiming at the performance of the Cayman or better.The interview was linked in this forum. If you are paying close attention to the posts of many, including ASH8, you will notice that there is a definite struggle going on at Mazda between the engineers and execs who want this car ,and the bean-counters like the COO who don't think it is financially feasible.
It is anybody's guess who will prevail. Obviously both sides are gauging the interest among potential buyers and the automotive world. Market trends and pressures, manufacturing costs and potential profits margins will compete against the benefit of this new major performance flagship car, and what its halo effect could mean for the Mazda brand in the long run.
It is anybody's guess who will prevail. Obviously both sides are gauging the interest among potential buyers and the automotive world. Market trends and pressures, manufacturing costs and potential profits margins will compete against the benefit of this new major performance flagship car, and what its halo effect could mean for the Mazda brand in the long run.
Last edited by gwilliams6; 01-14-2016 at 01:15 PM.
01-14-2016, 01:17 PM
#652
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
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mazda should just hire you gwilliams. nobody in the world has more rotary experience/miles than you
01-14-2016, 01:22 PM
#653
40th anniversary Edition
Sorry 200.mph, I can't wear that title. Though I worked with some of Mazda's first IMSA GTU and CamelLight and Bonneville record teams, I am sure many others have just as much or more to offer. LOL
01-14-2016, 02:09 PM
#654
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As a career and award-winning journalist for the past four decades, I not only reported about the FD RX7 when it was introduced to the US back in 1992, and it's demise in the US market after just three years, but I owned one.
Back then in 1992 a Porsche 911 was newly priced from $32,000 to $47,000 (depending on equipment). My Grand Touring (fully loaded) FD RX7 listed for $38,000. Mazda dealerships back then got just a few of the FDs and they sold them for list price and more, as the demand was great. And yes some potential Porsche and BMW owners wanted them and bought them. And yes the high insurance costs and small size played a part in its exit from the US market. Mazda won't make the same mistakes with any RX-Vision (if it actually makes it to market, which is in some doubt)
I am not here to waste my time in any rebuttal to you. This is the RX-Vision thread.
My point was simple, that Mazda execs have already hinted (on the record after the Japan auto show) that they are aiming for the Porsche Cayman. That being said, the wishes that the next RX (if it is even ever built) will be aimed at the lower end of the sports car market are not realistic. This RX-Vision will be Mazda's flagship and with its new technology and performance, will be priced accordingly, in my opinion.
Back then in 1992 a Porsche 911 was newly priced from $32,000 to $47,000 (depending on equipment). My Grand Touring (fully loaded) FD RX7 listed for $38,000. Mazda dealerships back then got just a few of the FDs and they sold them for list price and more, as the demand was great. And yes some potential Porsche and BMW owners wanted them and bought them. And yes the high insurance costs and small size played a part in its exit from the US market. Mazda won't make the same mistakes with any RX-Vision (if it actually makes it to market, which is in some doubt)
I am not here to waste my time in any rebuttal to you. This is the RX-Vision thread.
My point was simple, that Mazda execs have already hinted (on the record after the Japan auto show) that they are aiming for the Porsche Cayman. That being said, the wishes that the next RX (if it is even ever built) will be aimed at the lower end of the sports car market are not realistic. This RX-Vision will be Mazda's flagship and with its new technology and performance, will be priced accordingly, in my opinion.
I mean, you've already envisioned the next 10 years of Mazda product development based on overly fanciful MarketingSpeak(tm), hints, and things left unsaid. Mazda haven't even teased a horsepower number for the SkyActiv-R! You know that if the VP of Engineering (or whatever analog) had to be threatening the VP of Marketing with a giant club to keep the marketing department from promising it'll make at least 400HP and get 30 MPG on regular unleaded. If they were anywhere near being close, they'd be "leaking" it like crazy. As near as I can tell, they haven't even mentioned specific TARGETS for the SkyActiv-R.
Look, if they make it work, more power to them. But you've got to see that they might as well be promising a car powered by a LFTR for all the information they've released.
And yes, as you've demanded before, I'll come back and eat my words if they prove me wrong. Hell, I will be happy to do so because it means they've succeeded and we all win anyway.
Will you do the same? I doubt it; people that exhibit your level of zealotry usually just move the goal posts or fall back on special pleading.
Last edited by NotAPreppie; 01-14-2016 at 02:13 PM.
01-14-2016, 02:17 PM
#655
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I hate to point out the obvious, but the whole point of a car company releasing concept cars is to get a feel for the people who have money in the enthusiast automotive market, and see if they can get any interest in this new direction for product development.
What would have happened if the first Kodo design concept was heavily panned by the world? Would Mazda still have released it, or would they have altered it?
The same thing applies to sports car concepts.
Last February, when my wife and I decided to pull the trigger on our 2015 Cayman, if Mazda had ANY form of high end sports car, we would have 100% cross shopped it. Our experiences with Mazda vehicles has been overwhelmingly positive, and they KNOW how to make a sports car handle fantastically. That was our #1 requirement for our new sports car.
That made our shopping list extremely short, however.
People who buy sports cars are not normal people.
You are talking about the group of car buyers with LOTS of disposable cash for an emotional toy to add to the garage.
I can't wait until Mazda stops teasing us, and gives us something we can actually purchase. I'm in the lucky position in life that money isn't much of a concern for this market segment of car.
BC.
What would have happened if the first Kodo design concept was heavily panned by the world? Would Mazda still have released it, or would they have altered it?
The same thing applies to sports car concepts.
Last February, when my wife and I decided to pull the trigger on our 2015 Cayman, if Mazda had ANY form of high end sports car, we would have 100% cross shopped it. Our experiences with Mazda vehicles has been overwhelmingly positive, and they KNOW how to make a sports car handle fantastically. That was our #1 requirement for our new sports car.
That made our shopping list extremely short, however.
People who buy sports cars are not normal people.
You are talking about the group of car buyers with LOTS of disposable cash for an emotional toy to add to the garage.
I can't wait until Mazda stops teasing us, and gives us something we can actually purchase. I'm in the lucky position in life that money isn't much of a concern for this market segment of car.
BC.
Also, I think you're assuming that your priorities are representative of the majority of potential buyers. I think that if you're correct about that then we have to shrink the pool of potential buyers by a significant margin.
01-14-2016, 04:47 PM
#656
I just have a few things to add to this silly argument:
1. Mazda seems to be able to do more with less all through their product line (less HP, same or better performance, less cost, better handling, less overall budget, more market share) so I wouldn't put it past them to release the next RX with less hp than a cayman yet still outperform it in every aspect.
2. People who buy BMW's etc are not sports car buyers, they are prestige buyers so the only ones of them that will be cross shopping with any RX will be the ones buying M2's. People who buy Caymans may very well cross shop as they are looking for performance. On top of that everyone who asks about my 8 has either heard about a rotary, knows about them or wants to drive one sometime.
People looking at full on sports cars, or second fun cars will shop them all. The status of the Rx7 made the rotary one of those legendary cars like the Supra was. Add to that all the FF movies, my kids know all about rotaries and their friends know as well. They will sell at the beginning, and if they prove to be reliable and not too crazy on fuel, they will continue to sell.
1. Mazda seems to be able to do more with less all through their product line (less HP, same or better performance, less cost, better handling, less overall budget, more market share) so I wouldn't put it past them to release the next RX with less hp than a cayman yet still outperform it in every aspect.
2. People who buy BMW's etc are not sports car buyers, they are prestige buyers so the only ones of them that will be cross shopping with any RX will be the ones buying M2's. People who buy Caymans may very well cross shop as they are looking for performance. On top of that everyone who asks about my 8 has either heard about a rotary, knows about them or wants to drive one sometime.
People looking at full on sports cars, or second fun cars will shop them all. The status of the Rx7 made the rotary one of those legendary cars like the Supra was. Add to that all the FF movies, my kids know all about rotaries and their friends know as well. They will sell at the beginning, and if they prove to be reliable and not too crazy on fuel, they will continue to sell.
01-14-2016, 07:15 PM
#657
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I agree 77mid they can't have both. Mazda execs were asked and said that they were aiming at the performance of the Cayman or better.The interview was linked in this forum. If you are paying close attention to the posts of many, including ASH8, you will notice that there is a definite struggle going on at Mazda between the engineers and execs who want this car ,and the bean-counters like the COO who don't think it is financially feasible.
It is anybody's guess who will prevail. Obviously both sides are gauging the interest among potential buyers and the automotive world. Market trends and pressures, manufacturing costs and potential profits margins will compete against the benefit of this new major performance flagship car, and what its halo effect could mean for the Mazda brand in the long run.
It is anybody's guess who will prevail. Obviously both sides are gauging the interest among potential buyers and the automotive world. Market trends and pressures, manufacturing costs and potential profits margins will compete against the benefit of this new major performance flagship car, and what its halo effect could mean for the Mazda brand in the long run.
I can definitely agree there seems to be some internal struggle with this at Mazda. Personally, I want to see another sports car from Mazda, and I don't care if it's a rotary or not. I know there are some very unsubstantiated rumors about a possible 6 coupe with the new S/A turbo from the new CX-9. If they could shorten it up a bit and turn it RWD it could be a possible compromise. This rendering is awesome. Even if it's not rotary powered, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Last edited by 77mjd; 01-14-2016 at 07:21 PM.
01-15-2016, 05:52 AM
#658
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Mazda's "budget" sportscar is the MX-5. They won't compete with themselves and build another one in the same category. Mazda execs have already hinted that their target for the RX-Vision is the Porsche Cayman, so Mazds IS going upscale with any next RE car and going after the Porsche and BMW buyer. As a former RX7 FD owner, that car did compete with Porsche in performance and was priced accordingly. Whether this is successful strategy for Mazda remains to be seen.
01-20-2016, 09:38 AM
#666
1% evil, 99% hot gas.
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Blah blah more rumors...but rumors are at least better than no discussion at all.
Mazda hints at RX-9 with 450hp rotary engine | LeftLaneNews
Mazda hints at RX-9 with 450hp rotary engine | LeftLaneNews
*sniff* *sniff* Yup. Smells like utter bullshit to me. The really deep kind.
01-20-2016, 05:47 PM
#670
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Last edited by NotAPreppie; 01-20-2016 at 05:50 PM.
01-22-2016, 02:08 PM
#674
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Seeing this is a RE forum I just thought I would 'quickly' pass on a discussion I had with a couple yesterday as I was leaving an auto parts store, there was parked a current shinny new Mazda CX-5 (2.5) in Soul Red, the owners were a little older than me.
The windows were down so I could not resist complementing on the car, anyway, we started talking 'Mazda' and what we had owned, I was asked what I had (MX-5, RX-8).
The guy then said, oh one of those oil and gas guzzlers, I was instantly offended and abruptly said with a smile that all Rotaries ever made consumes engine oil for internal lubrication, it is not a defect..he said nothing back and we moved on...20 minutes later I walked away
My point is (unfortunately) the perception is still there and always will be, and any new 'Vision' if it ever happens will Only ever be an enthusiasts car (guys like us), and that is the current conundrum, even IF Mazda can 'technically' pass all the necessary regs and issues we all know about.
And this is precisely why the MMC JAPAN bean counters (including the man in charge) are not overjoyed, let alone the majority of private retail Mazda Dealers around the world.
And as Are-ex-eight said (no 4 doors) and this was again the exact reason why the RX-8 sold initially in good numbers for only 2 years, until gas prices and reliability took a hit (and the early coil, engine problems)...believe me, the guys in the front line (Dealerships) had a gut-full of seeing dead or problem RX-8's.
The FD was a great concept, but $80K in Australia! in 1991!, only 'specialists Dealers' which I was in one could sell them here too, I think only 550 (from memory) ever sold in the entire FD sales time-line in Oz.
Whatever 'we' enthusiasts think the RE's reputation is shot to pieces.
I still do not see any acceptable sales numbers to warrant production...as too little is actually known.
Edit: And the 20,000 RX-Vision "Facebook" launch likes is interesting, but I would guess < 2,000 would be buyers, the rest?
The windows were down so I could not resist complementing on the car, anyway, we started talking 'Mazda' and what we had owned, I was asked what I had (MX-5, RX-8).
The guy then said, oh one of those oil and gas guzzlers, I was instantly offended and abruptly said with a smile that all Rotaries ever made consumes engine oil for internal lubrication, it is not a defect..he said nothing back and we moved on...20 minutes later I walked away
My point is (unfortunately) the perception is still there and always will be, and any new 'Vision' if it ever happens will Only ever be an enthusiasts car (guys like us), and that is the current conundrum, even IF Mazda can 'technically' pass all the necessary regs and issues we all know about.
And this is precisely why the MMC JAPAN bean counters (including the man in charge) are not overjoyed, let alone the majority of private retail Mazda Dealers around the world.
And as Are-ex-eight said (no 4 doors) and this was again the exact reason why the RX-8 sold initially in good numbers for only 2 years, until gas prices and reliability took a hit (and the early coil, engine problems)...believe me, the guys in the front line (Dealerships) had a gut-full of seeing dead or problem RX-8's.
The FD was a great concept, but $80K in Australia! in 1991!, only 'specialists Dealers' which I was in one could sell them here too, I think only 550 (from memory) ever sold in the entire FD sales time-line in Oz.
Whatever 'we' enthusiasts think the RE's reputation is shot to pieces.
I still do not see any acceptable sales numbers to warrant production...as too little is actually known.
Edit: And the 20,000 RX-Vision "Facebook" launch likes is interesting, but I would guess < 2,000 would be buyers, the rest?
01-22-2016, 05:12 PM
#675
Maybe that is the idea of positioning it against Porsche, give it a higher price knowing they won't sell millions of them. All the magazines can run the tests showing it trounces (hopefully) everything at 2x its price and with no reliability issues or other nightmares they can reset the poor image the rotary has. Think of it like the GTR, it started at about half the current price ($150k) when it was launched in its current iteration and now has a huge cult following. It defeated every car it was tested against at a far lower price point. It also got ppl in the door at Nissan. If they make this a Halo car, and make it great, they get the foot traffic in the door to buy the volume cars. Also, if it has the headroom like the GTR did (I think it started at 450hp and is now over 600) they can improve its handling every couple years to keep it a Halo car and increase the price along the way also.
The problem is this HUGE hp war going on now leaves little room for an Rx. 0-60 times are now ridiculously low on everything and everything that is considered a sports car handles so much better than everything else out there. Hell the BMW X6M out tracks the M3 . . . The Rx will need to build a following like the GTR did if Mazda wants it to have some success. They need to make it appeal to the younger crowd (even if they can't afford it) like Nissan did with the GTR.
Finally, for anyone saying ppl are not going to cross-shop a Porsche and Mazda, nobody was going to do that for Nissan either, but ppl are buying them at $150k each now because how they performed (it is not winning comparo's anymore, but the legend is enticing). Mazda will need to hit this one out of the park (not necessarily hp, but in comparison tests it will be put into, it will need to win) for this car/engine to have a chance at redemption.
The problem is this HUGE hp war going on now leaves little room for an Rx. 0-60 times are now ridiculously low on everything and everything that is considered a sports car handles so much better than everything else out there. Hell the BMW X6M out tracks the M3 . . . The Rx will need to build a following like the GTR did if Mazda wants it to have some success. They need to make it appeal to the younger crowd (even if they can't afford it) like Nissan did with the GTR.
Finally, for anyone saying ppl are not going to cross-shop a Porsche and Mazda, nobody was going to do that for Nissan either, but ppl are buying them at $150k each now because how they performed (it is not winning comparo's anymore, but the legend is enticing). Mazda will need to hit this one out of the park (not necessarily hp, but in comparison tests it will be put into, it will need to win) for this car/engine to have a chance at redemption.
Last edited by djgiron; 01-22-2016 at 05:14 PM.