Mazda Head of Product Planning: "We'll never give up rotary engines", July 2011
08-05-2011, 11:14 AM
#1
Wiseguy
Thread Starter
Mazda Head of Product Planning: "We'll never give up rotary engines", July 2011
http://ae-plus.com/qanda/qanda-kiyoshi-fujiwara-mazda
You have a very varied role: what takes up most of your time on a daily basis?
My offices are located in the product planning office. Around 70% of my time concerns next-generation products – the other 30% I'm in charge of the design studio. The other responsibilities are the programme office and the cost division. We have to manage products such as the next Mazda6 and Mazda3.
Those are my current jobs. Since 2007 until earlier this year I was managing the powertrain division, spending all my time developing the Skyactiv gasoline and diesel engines and transmissions.
How did you get started in the industry?
My background is mechanical engineering. When I began my career in industry I was a package engineer: I was doing the layout of the entire car. So my favourite job is considering new packages.
What is the big challenge with packaging?
The Skyactiv gasoline engine requires a lot of space for the special exhaust manifold. The big challenge is package-protecting that but still shorten the front overhangs for styling.
What is Mazda's position with the rotary engine?
Rotary engines are one of our core competencies: we have to maintain this business. But they have several fundamental issues because of the different motion to the piston engine and therefore we're always looking for new technologies from other industries. We've already found countermeasures for theses issues, so we're ready, but first we have to succeed with Skyactiv – we need the revenue.
Of course there are always engineers at Mazda working on rotary engines. When we get the money we can set the budget and then go forward – we'll never give up rotary engines. And recently some of the German firms have become interested in rotary engines for a different application – as range extenders. This is interesting because we already have a hydrogen rotary hybrid system.
How do you decide which programmes get which budgets – there must be a lot of competition when you need to introduce so many technologies?
Just now we're focused on the internal combustion engine – basic technology. We're not so much interested in hybrids at the moment.
Other OEMs are going for boosted downsized engines: Mazda is going instead for ultra high- and ultra low-compression ratios instead. Do you wonder why others are not doing the same?
There are several reasons but the main one is that most companies have a restriction to their manufacturing system. Therefore everybody wants to continue with existing powertrains. They don't have the chance to renew them completely. If I have to utilise existing engines, adding a turbocharger is the best way.
We have the chance to renew everything because were have a flexible manufacturing system. Our manufacturing team said there is no need to have a common bore pitch. We are free to choose. Our view is that if you add a turbocharging system to gasoline you need an intercooling system and that adds weight and cost.
You're involved in design so you probably understand that whenever Volkswagen launches a new Golf it is criticised for looking too much like the previous generation. Do you feel the same pressure with the MX-5? How do you evolve it?
The next-generation MX-5 will go back to basics. It's time to go back to the original. The price of the original MX-5 was very affordable, therefore younger people could afford to buy it, and then they knew it was fun to drive. Therefore we have to offer this opportunity to the younger generation – that's my vision.
but another article of detroitbureau says that new rotary car will come in 2017
i hope they are wrong...
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011...rotary-engine/
With the upcoming demise of the RX-8 sports car, a piece of Mazda’s history will vanish. But a senior company engineer tells TheDetroitBureau.com that the Japanese maker aims to bring back the rotary engine – in all-new form – shortly after mid-decade.
Formally known as the Wankel, the unusual powertrain helped put Mazda on the map when it first entered the American market four decades ago. At the time, a large number of manufacturers were studying rotary engine applications. But early problems with reliability and an ongoing issue with fuel economy led most makers to abandon the technology.
Mazda, however, has maintained the rotary in its line-up because its small size and high performance fit the brand’s “zoom-zoom” image, said Kiyoshi Fujiwara, the Japanese maker’s global product design chief.
The rotary-powered Mazda 787B won an overall victory at Le Mans, in 1991, the only Japanese entry ever to take the title.
The rotary appeared to get a death sentence when Mazda announced it was pulling production of the slow-selling RX-8, a four-door sports car. No other applications appeared on the horizon reflecting, at least in part, the challenge of working with an engine known for its decidedly fuel-thirsty nature.
Senior company officials have continued to support efforts to develop a more efficient – and powerful – version of the Wankel, Fujiwara confirmed – though he also noted that the project was moved to the back-burner during the global economic downturn to help Mazda live within its budget.
“But they told me not to let it go,” Fujiwara said with a laugh, noting that meant continuing development almost as a skunk works project.
Invented by German Felix Wankel, who received a patent in 1929, the rotary engine is decidedly different from the gas and diesel powertrains used by most of the world’s automotive manufacturers. Tiny by comparison, it uses a similar four-stroke cycle, but instead of relying on pistons moving inside an engine block, a triangular rotor spins within a somewhat oval-shaped housing.
The technology produces significantly more power for a given displacement than a conventional piston engine – a fact that Mazda has used to its advantage, over the years, on the race track. In fact, the maker is the only Japanese auto company to capture an overall win, in 1991, at the grueling 24 Hours of Le Mans endurance race.
The compactness was once seen as an advantage makers could use to deliver a peppy ride in downsized products such as the old AMC Pacer, which was originally designed to use a rotary engine. Other makers that explored then abandoned the technology include Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Toyota. Mazda, however, was the only company to find a serious application for production, launching the rotary in such early models as the RX-2 sedan and the original RX-7 sports car. Today, it is only available in the U.S. in the RX-8.
Fuel economy is one of three key problems that Mazda faces as it seeks to bring back a practical rotary, says Fujiwara, and the one that is proving most difficult to resolve. But the executive hints the next-general Mazda Wankel could make use of some of the technology his company will use in a more conventional piston powertrain dubbed Skyactiv.
Debuting on the updated Mazda3, next year, Skyactiv promises to deliver hybrid-like mileage without the added battery-powered hardware. Some of the technical tricks, such as direct injection appear to be on the list of ways Fujiwara’s team believes it can update the rotary.
He believes that the revived powertrain will be able to deliver mileage that is at least comparable to Mazda’s current gasoline engines, a significant improvement from what the current Wankel can achieve.
As for timing, Fujiwara cautiously admits to wanting to bring the next-gen rotary into production in 2017. That would mark the 50th anniversary of the engine’s debut on the short-lived Ro 80. That model was built by Germany’s NSU – later subsumed by Audi – the only maker to beat Mazda to market.
NSU abandoned the technology due to problems with the rotary engine’s seals – which separate the triangular rotor from the outer housing. Similar problems nearly bankrupted Mazda before it came up with a solution still in use today.
Whether Fujiwara’s goal can be met remains to be seen. It will require both an infusion of cash to complete the redevelopment effort – and it will depend upon Mazda coming up with an appropriate product, likely a sports car of some sort, that would make effective use of a rotary.
But considering the way the rotary has, for many, helped define the Mazda brand, Fujiwara is confident that even in extremely low volume it will eventually make a return.
You have a very varied role: what takes up most of your time on a daily basis?
My offices are located in the product planning office. Around 70% of my time concerns next-generation products – the other 30% I'm in charge of the design studio. The other responsibilities are the programme office and the cost division. We have to manage products such as the next Mazda6 and Mazda3.
Those are my current jobs. Since 2007 until earlier this year I was managing the powertrain division, spending all my time developing the Skyactiv gasoline and diesel engines and transmissions.
How did you get started in the industry?
My background is mechanical engineering. When I began my career in industry I was a package engineer: I was doing the layout of the entire car. So my favourite job is considering new packages.
What is the big challenge with packaging?
The Skyactiv gasoline engine requires a lot of space for the special exhaust manifold. The big challenge is package-protecting that but still shorten the front overhangs for styling.
What is Mazda's position with the rotary engine?
Rotary engines are one of our core competencies: we have to maintain this business. But they have several fundamental issues because of the different motion to the piston engine and therefore we're always looking for new technologies from other industries. We've already found countermeasures for theses issues, so we're ready, but first we have to succeed with Skyactiv – we need the revenue.
Of course there are always engineers at Mazda working on rotary engines. When we get the money we can set the budget and then go forward – we'll never give up rotary engines. And recently some of the German firms have become interested in rotary engines for a different application – as range extenders. This is interesting because we already have a hydrogen rotary hybrid system.
How do you decide which programmes get which budgets – there must be a lot of competition when you need to introduce so many technologies?
Just now we're focused on the internal combustion engine – basic technology. We're not so much interested in hybrids at the moment.
Other OEMs are going for boosted downsized engines: Mazda is going instead for ultra high- and ultra low-compression ratios instead. Do you wonder why others are not doing the same?
There are several reasons but the main one is that most companies have a restriction to their manufacturing system. Therefore everybody wants to continue with existing powertrains. They don't have the chance to renew them completely. If I have to utilise existing engines, adding a turbocharger is the best way.
We have the chance to renew everything because were have a flexible manufacturing system. Our manufacturing team said there is no need to have a common bore pitch. We are free to choose. Our view is that if you add a turbocharging system to gasoline you need an intercooling system and that adds weight and cost.
You're involved in design so you probably understand that whenever Volkswagen launches a new Golf it is criticised for looking too much like the previous generation. Do you feel the same pressure with the MX-5? How do you evolve it?
The next-generation MX-5 will go back to basics. It's time to go back to the original. The price of the original MX-5 was very affordable, therefore younger people could afford to buy it, and then they knew it was fun to drive. Therefore we have to offer this opportunity to the younger generation – that's my vision.
but another article of detroitbureau says that new rotary car will come in 2017
i hope they are wrong...
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011...rotary-engine/
With the upcoming demise of the RX-8 sports car, a piece of Mazda’s history will vanish. But a senior company engineer tells TheDetroitBureau.com that the Japanese maker aims to bring back the rotary engine – in all-new form – shortly after mid-decade.
Formally known as the Wankel, the unusual powertrain helped put Mazda on the map when it first entered the American market four decades ago. At the time, a large number of manufacturers were studying rotary engine applications. But early problems with reliability and an ongoing issue with fuel economy led most makers to abandon the technology.
Mazda, however, has maintained the rotary in its line-up because its small size and high performance fit the brand’s “zoom-zoom” image, said Kiyoshi Fujiwara, the Japanese maker’s global product design chief.
The rotary-powered Mazda 787B won an overall victory at Le Mans, in 1991, the only Japanese entry ever to take the title.
The rotary appeared to get a death sentence when Mazda announced it was pulling production of the slow-selling RX-8, a four-door sports car. No other applications appeared on the horizon reflecting, at least in part, the challenge of working with an engine known for its decidedly fuel-thirsty nature.
Senior company officials have continued to support efforts to develop a more efficient – and powerful – version of the Wankel, Fujiwara confirmed – though he also noted that the project was moved to the back-burner during the global economic downturn to help Mazda live within its budget.
“But they told me not to let it go,” Fujiwara said with a laugh, noting that meant continuing development almost as a skunk works project.
Invented by German Felix Wankel, who received a patent in 1929, the rotary engine is decidedly different from the gas and diesel powertrains used by most of the world’s automotive manufacturers. Tiny by comparison, it uses a similar four-stroke cycle, but instead of relying on pistons moving inside an engine block, a triangular rotor spins within a somewhat oval-shaped housing.
The technology produces significantly more power for a given displacement than a conventional piston engine – a fact that Mazda has used to its advantage, over the years, on the race track. In fact, the maker is the only Japanese auto company to capture an overall win, in 1991, at the grueling 24 Hours of Le Mans endurance race.
The compactness was once seen as an advantage makers could use to deliver a peppy ride in downsized products such as the old AMC Pacer, which was originally designed to use a rotary engine. Other makers that explored then abandoned the technology include Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Toyota. Mazda, however, was the only company to find a serious application for production, launching the rotary in such early models as the RX-2 sedan and the original RX-7 sports car. Today, it is only available in the U.S. in the RX-8.
Fuel economy is one of three key problems that Mazda faces as it seeks to bring back a practical rotary, says Fujiwara, and the one that is proving most difficult to resolve. But the executive hints the next-general Mazda Wankel could make use of some of the technology his company will use in a more conventional piston powertrain dubbed Skyactiv.
Debuting on the updated Mazda3, next year, Skyactiv promises to deliver hybrid-like mileage without the added battery-powered hardware. Some of the technical tricks, such as direct injection appear to be on the list of ways Fujiwara’s team believes it can update the rotary.
He believes that the revived powertrain will be able to deliver mileage that is at least comparable to Mazda’s current gasoline engines, a significant improvement from what the current Wankel can achieve.
As for timing, Fujiwara cautiously admits to wanting to bring the next-gen rotary into production in 2017. That would mark the 50th anniversary of the engine’s debut on the short-lived Ro 80. That model was built by Germany’s NSU – later subsumed by Audi – the only maker to beat Mazda to market.
NSU abandoned the technology due to problems with the rotary engine’s seals – which separate the triangular rotor from the outer housing. Similar problems nearly bankrupted Mazda before it came up with a solution still in use today.
Whether Fujiwara’s goal can be met remains to be seen. It will require both an infusion of cash to complete the redevelopment effort – and it will depend upon Mazda coming up with an appropriate product, likely a sports car of some sort, that would make effective use of a rotary.
But considering the way the rotary has, for many, helped define the Mazda brand, Fujiwara is confident that even in extremely low volume it will eventually make a return.
Last edited by MattMPS; 08-05-2011 at 11:17 AM.
08-05-2011, 11:33 AM
#2
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2017 works for me. I don't mind waiting if it's worth it. 
08-05-2011, 12:17 PM
#3
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This sounds like mazda has their head on their shoulders. It is unfortunate if we have to wait this long for the rotary but I much prefer waiting over ruining Mazda financially.
Let's hope that Skyactiv engines deliver and that Mazda markets them well.
Let's hope that Skyactiv engines deliver and that Mazda markets them well.
08-05-2011, 12:36 PM
#4
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iTrader: (7)
as much as we'd all love to have the next gen Rotary out next year, the finances simply aren't there.
I for one hope they sell the **** out of these skyactiv motors, that Mazda 2's and 3's are FLYING off the lots over the next few years and that Mazda makes up even more ground against the other Japanese auto makers.
is it because I love seeing Mazda 2's and 3's on the road? No, not really but I know that those cars are profitable for Mazda and that is where the capital for the next RX will come from so every time I see a new Mazda on the road, I smile.
I for one hope they sell the **** out of these skyactiv motors, that Mazda 2's and 3's are FLYING off the lots over the next few years and that Mazda makes up even more ground against the other Japanese auto makers.
is it because I love seeing Mazda 2's and 3's on the road? No, not really but I know that those cars are profitable for Mazda and that is where the capital for the next RX will come from so every time I see a new Mazda on the road, I smile.
08-05-2011, 05:39 PM
#8
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The thing to take away from this is the same argument that has been made previously...
That is, that the rotary engine has been a loser money wise for Mazda for quite a while. At least since the RX8 had the engine recall put into place.
The only way Mazda will continue the rotary engine market will be if they can make their money somewhere else ala SkyActiv and or other model sales.
2017 sounds like a much more realistic figure time wise. The problem is that between now and then there will no doubt be increases in emissions regulations and further strain put on vehicles due to mileage standards.
The hurdles are vast. There is some opportunity to tack on rotary engine advancement if it is used as a range extender in Audi or VW vehicles. With fuel costs being as high as they are in Europe I could really see that being a reality.
At this point, you better assume that the RX8 is going to be the last produced Rotary car for a long time.
That is, that the rotary engine has been a loser money wise for Mazda for quite a while. At least since the RX8 had the engine recall put into place.
The only way Mazda will continue the rotary engine market will be if they can make their money somewhere else ala SkyActiv and or other model sales.
2017 sounds like a much more realistic figure time wise. The problem is that between now and then there will no doubt be increases in emissions regulations and further strain put on vehicles due to mileage standards.
The hurdles are vast. There is some opportunity to tack on rotary engine advancement if it is used as a range extender in Audi or VW vehicles. With fuel costs being as high as they are in Europe I could really see that being a reality.
At this point, you better assume that the RX8 is going to be the last produced Rotary car for a long time.
08-05-2011, 05:40 PM
#9
Super Moderator
2017!...6 years out...MMmmm.
Dunno, about this one, as we know Mazda have always had a Rotary 'In Production'...
FD RX-7 continued until Feb 2003...Japan Domestic Market ONLY...so it did it's 10 years.
FE RX-8 is up in 2013...
Another 3 or 4 years is a very long stretch...I not so sure MMC can continue with Renny 2 Emissions wise to 2017 in Japan.
************************************************** ***********************
But yes as I said the Rotary is finished in it's current form, many here got their **** in a not..
I never said the rotary is DEAD, just in NA applications.
And I really don't know about using the Rotary as a "Range Extender"...this is NOT what the Rotary is about..
IMO, I still believe Mazda are hoping on Hydrogen and their Hydro Hybrid...with Hydrogen being the "range extender".
****************
Now this one...with even tighter US CAFE regulations of what a fleet average of 55-60 MPG in 15 years..or what ever it bloody is...(from memory)..
I just cant see how Mazda are going to slip the Rotary in as we know it.
Dunno, about this one, as we know Mazda have always had a Rotary 'In Production'...
FD RX-7 continued until Feb 2003...Japan Domestic Market ONLY...so it did it's 10 years.
FE RX-8 is up in 2013...
Another 3 or 4 years is a very long stretch...I not so sure MMC can continue with Renny 2 Emissions wise to 2017 in Japan.
************************************************** ***********************
But yes as I said the Rotary is finished in it's current form, many here got their **** in a not..
I never said the rotary is DEAD, just in NA applications.
And I really don't know about using the Rotary as a "Range Extender"...this is NOT what the Rotary is about..
IMO, I still believe Mazda are hoping on Hydrogen and their Hydro Hybrid...with Hydrogen being the "range extender".
****************
Now this one...with even tighter US CAFE regulations of what a fleet average of 55-60 MPG in 15 years..or what ever it bloody is...(from memory)..
I just cant see how Mazda are going to slip the Rotary in as we know it.
08-05-2011, 05:52 PM
#11
Paul.
08-05-2011, 06:52 PM
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I think Mazda should start selling crate 16Xs (w/ a fortified transmission). That way they don't have to warranty an entirely new platform, and have a test bed for the next production car.
08-05-2011, 07:14 PM
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Mazda is going to be destroying any hope of hydrogen becoming a dominant fuel source if the kinds of fuel mileage realized by SkyActiv are possible in real world applications. If they are able to produce a line of vehicles from the Mazda 2 and 3 that get in excess of 45mpg then hydrogen isn't going to have much of a promising future.
Now, combining hydrogen w/ a range extender is certainly a possibility.
It might not be the most glamorous immediate future for the rotary but it would give Mazda a budget by which they could continue R&D on something that would actually make them money instead of producing RX8's that no one will buy.
08-05-2011, 08:39 PM
#16
Well.. if you could extend your range using propane Wankel and use the current BBQ tank, you would have a hit.
You probably need a tank 2x the size, which means consumers will need help.
The source is there. all Mazda has to do is work with Home depot on joint venture.
Drive to any Home depot and get your propane tank exchanged.
They really need to explore this opportunity as the infrastructure is in place for propane stations.
It's called "Home Depot".
MAZDA get your Ducks in a row.....
You probably need a tank 2x the size, which means consumers will need help.
The source is there. all Mazda has to do is work with Home depot on joint venture.
Drive to any Home depot and get your propane tank exchanged.
They really need to explore this opportunity as the infrastructure is in place for propane stations.
It's called "Home Depot".
MAZDA get your Ducks in a row.....
08-06-2011, 04:44 AM
#20
Super Moderator
Not what its "about"? I highly disagree. The small form factor and proven efficiency of the rotary at a constant RPM are exactly what a range extender platform would need. The retarded method is like GM using a 4 cylinder motor in the Volt.
Mazda is going to be destroying any hope of hydrogen becoming a dominant fuel source if the kinds of fuel mileage realized by SkyActiv are possible in real world applications. If they are able to produce a line of vehicles from the Mazda 2 and 3 that get in excess of 45mpg then hydrogen isn't going to have much of a promising future.
Now, combining hydrogen w/ a range extender is certainly a possibility.
It might not be the most glamorous immediate future for the rotary but it would give Mazda a budget by which they could continue R&D on something that would actually make them money instead of producing RX8's that no one will buy.
Mazda is going to be destroying any hope of hydrogen becoming a dominant fuel source if the kinds of fuel mileage realized by SkyActiv are possible in real world applications. If they are able to produce a line of vehicles from the Mazda 2 and 3 that get in excess of 45mpg then hydrogen isn't going to have much of a promising future.
Now, combining hydrogen w/ a range extender is certainly a possibility.
It might not be the most glamorous immediate future for the rotary but it would give Mazda a budget by which they could continue R&D on something that would actually make them money instead of producing RX8's that no one will buy.
Surely, you don't need educating Todd....you are an owner...
I cant see the appeal of a "heavy" Volt type battery car and say a 654cc single Rotor or small twin 10A (998) as the extender???..IMO the Volt's success is ????.
I would not buy any Rotary which is not the primary power source, anything else is just making the vehicle heavier..again not Mazda's philosophy.
Plus what is going on around the world does not inspire me about the Rotaries Future.
I know Mazda, and they are not going to tell anyone what is really happening with their Rotary UNTIL it actually happens...Imagine what would happen to their stock if the end was comfirmed??...Was bad enough when they said Electric Hybrids were not on their agenda, then the so called 'Toyota E H Licence', and now the "(E H) is on the back burner again"....again cant seeing it happening.
Mazda would sell no more Electric Hybrids than they do Rotaries...so why invest in E H right now...the word was 2013 for their new EH....I really doubt that now...red screen stock markets throughout the world!
It is interesting times..
08-06-2011, 05:25 AM
#21
Wiseguy
Thread Starter
..Was bad enough when they said Electric Hybrids were not on their agenda, then the so called 'Toyota E H Licence', and now the "(E H) is on the back burner again"....again cant seeing it happening.
Mazda would sell no more Electric Hybrids than they do Rotaries...so why invest in E H right now...the word was 2013 for their new EH....I really doubt that now...red screen stock markets throughout the world!
Mazda would sell no more Electric Hybrids than they do Rotaries...so why invest in E H right now...the word was 2013 for their new EH....I really doubt that now...red screen stock markets throughout the world!
No one of top manager wil talk about ANYTHING other than skyactiv for a couple of year.
Rotary, Hybrids and so on...
But they have a big agreement with toyota, they have also builded and thery are using a series hybrid (Premacy RE H2)
We will see something different than a "Skyactiv piston engine" from a couple of years from today, not before .....Not about rotary (excepts generic statements), not about Hybrids (but a car with Toyota tech is planned for 2013)
By the way, they are spending funds and resources into EV there are patents deposited anf this short video from NHK-Hiroshima
http://www.youtube.com/user/FFFtube7.../0/ptAbQ-JxfFM
08-06-2011, 06:32 AM
#22
Super Moderator
Demio (Mazda 2) EV is with Hiroshima University, not Toyota HS...
Old news...Matt..
Old news...Matt..
08-06-2011, 07:58 AM
#23
Wiseguy
Thread Starter
08-06-2011, 12:33 PM
#24
Thanks for the article Matt. We have heard in the past that the rotary is the soul of Mazda. It's nice to know that the current management of the company will continue to have the faith. I just hope that they do some hot and cold weather testing outside of Japan before they release the next RX.
08-06-2011, 01:09 PM
#25
Flashwing and Ash8 are arguing without understanding each others' point:
Flashwing, I believe is stating that the rotaries are an excellent choice for a range extender (The possibility is that Mazda can find capital from German manufacturers that can help push the next Mazda RE car).
Ash, I think is saying he will not purchase a car using a rotary for a range extender as it takes away the point of having a rotary for him.
Both of these positions are pleasing to me.
Paul.
Flashwing, I believe is stating that the rotaries are an excellent choice for a range extender (The possibility is that Mazda can find capital from German manufacturers that can help push the next Mazda RE car).
Ash, I think is saying he will not purchase a car using a rotary for a range extender as it takes away the point of having a rotary for him.
Both of these positions are pleasing to me
.Paul.
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