Japan8

I wasn't going to post a third time in a row in this thread, but...


Actually it's a semi-auto throttle. You push on a pedal that has a sensor that detects it's position. That information is transmitted to a computer that translates this to a throttle opening position. If there are no flags (excessive wheelspin, redline, etc.) the computer then sends a signal to a stepper motor that is connected to the throttle body to open it this set amount. You are only indirectly controlling it and the computer can intervene when it "thinks" it is appropriate.

therm8

I'm not redifining anything at all. An automatic transmission has always been a planetary gearset + torque converter. There are plenty of TH350 or TH400 drag transmissions out there that will never shift themselves. I don't go around calling them manual transmissions and no one else does either..

Neither am I dictating a single thing. Drive what you like, I couldn't care less.

Japan8

That reminds me...

There are the "semi-auto" drag transmissions. A "traditional" automatic transmission that if 100% shifted by the driver... no F1 shift paddles, etc. These are also called "semi-automatic" transmissions.

Read my previous post. You must be either young or middle aged. That's only way you could be so obstinate. Automatic transmissions weren't always computer controlled. Should those have a different name? What about the drag transmissions? What about CVT transmissions? What about manual transmissions with a hydraulic slave (vs cable) clutch?

You see to be missing the point. Automatic transmissions weren't just randomly given that name when they were developed. The definition "planetary gearset + torque converter" wasn't added to some newly created word. The transmission was named such because it didn't require human intervention to transmit power and change gears... hench automatic. It has absolutely nothing to do with the specifics of the mechanics involved... no matter how much you yell about it until you are red in the face. This is simply fact. A transmission was invented to automate shifting and make it easier for wives to drive the family car. As shifting was "automated" it was termed an "automatic transmission".

From Wikipedia
Early automotive automatic transmissions didn't even have a torque converter, but instead a fluid coupling.

Ike

Since people insist on redefining simple words it's pointless to keep argueing. Right now people companies are wanting to make it clear that their new transmissions with a clutch or clurches are totally from traditional transmissions. As time goes on and they become the norm they will all just be called automatic or semi-automatic transmissions and manuals will pretty much remain the same. It's great that ATs are getting better, I probably won't be buying one anytime soon, but it's nice to know if I ever decide to I won't have to give up a whole lot in performance.

P.S. How someone can call a DSG or SMG a manual transmission is baffling to me.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

That was my exact point about the powerglide trannies used in drag applications - they don't shift themselves, but anyone that knows about transmissions would agree its an automatic transmission... and NOBODY that uses them claim anything else besides that its an automatic transmission.

I agree calling something a manual or automatic transmission based on its operation is 100% ignorant of the mechanics involved in these transmissions. Then going and saying that something is an automatic because they decided to substitute a gear shift for banging up against a rev limiter is completely absurb.

when driven correctly, the DSG/SMG trannies will NEVER do anything you don't ask for and have NONE of the disadvantages of a real automatic transmission.

bascho

If a manufacturer put a DSG trans into a car and programmed the computer to be full manual only......what would you call the transmission type?


You are getting hung up on the application side of the arguement. A computer makes the DSG transmission 'act' like a automatic. The terms 'manual' and 'automatic' are extremely subjective since they define how the transmission is controlled rather than how it's designed. As others have mentioned, older 'automatic' transmissions have been converted to shift manually....but no one calls them 'manual transmissions'. They could based on driver participation required....but no body does. The DSG is a 'manual' transmission that can been controlled 'automatically', 'semi-automatically' or 'manually'.......so, it could be called any one of those names. I consider the term 'manual' to mean that I have to participate in the process.

Feras

iTrader: (1)

look this may be a little overboard but im just gonna say it, SMG is the cop out for people who don't wanna admit to driving or only knnowing how to drive an automatic. In either case whatever floats your boat. A glorified automatic with bells and whistles or a manual gearbox that shifts automatically at the end of the day is still an automatic and is not for me in a sports car. But if you want it easy or don't wanna learn; drive whatever you want, but realize its an automatic.

bascho

I also like to 'row' through the gears of a true 'manual' transmission......but you and I and in the minority my friend. Look at the sales of vehicles world-wide......the majority want 'automatic' transmissions. No doubt the DSG transmission is going to be used in 'automatic' form 95% of the time by owners. I don't think the DSG is here to replace the traditional 'manual' transmission. I think it's here as the next 'automatic' trans with versatility. I have not driven a DSG equip'd vehicle yet......but I can tell you that everytime I'm in traffic, I wish I could switch my 6MT into a automatic. The DSG trans is the closest thing to getting that versatility.

macnrx8

Here is the definition of manual....

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=manual


According to the definitions, manual REQUIRES human intervention. If I can get in a car, put it in drive, push the gas pedal, and the transmission shifts for me, IMO its an automatic. If the CPU doesn't tell it to shift and I HAVE to MANUALLY press a paddle it a manual.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

in that case the RX8 automatic in "manual" mode would be a manual transmission... it is not a manual transmission by any stretch of the imagination

zaglo6204

well if you keep revving without hitting the paddle, the CPU will make the tranny shift, will it not?

therm8

See my post on context above...

therm8

The drag transmissions I'm talking about, will never shift themselves. They are not semi-auto, they're still "automatic transmissions," but have had the automatic shifting capability removed. By the SMG=auto logic, these should be called manual transmissions?

Computer control is irrelevant, the old auto boxes just had mechanical devices to perform the same function as today's computers. If it has planetary gears and a torque converter (which is a fluid coupling device, btw), it is an automatic transmission in the automotive sense of the term. A CVT is a CVT...It is a new type of transmission, that uses some of the old technology.

"Automatic transmission" has a very specific application intended in today's automotive terminology, nevermind it's origins.

I'm 30, btw, and am being no more obstinate than those arguing the other side of the debate. Besides, when I'm right, I'm right .


No it won't. It'll just bounce off the rev limiter. The only time the car will shift in manual mode is at 21mph in 4th gear (to 3rd) and at 5mph in 3rd or 2nd gear (to first).

saturn

Anything that has the capability to shift for you makes it automatic (or semi-auto). In your example, it would be a manual transmission. Sure it would be a push-button transmission with a electronic assisted shift mechanism, but it's still totally initiated from a human at all times.

therm8

What about a full-manual converted drag "automatic" transmission?

saturn

What about a automatically manual controlled automatic tranmission with a semi-manual mode?

Japan8

That's why I said the drag transmissions are "Semi-automatic". The drag transmissions actually come in two types... one with gears and one with planetary gears. Both are "semi-automatic".

The SMG= auto logic is based on it can and will shift for you. Drag transmissions cannot.

You again miss the point. The point was that these were innovations to improve a transmission that handles the work of shifting for you. From mechanical valve control to computer control and from fluid coupling to torque converter... these were implemented to improve efficiency, smoothness and driving experience. "tiptronic" (from Porsche) was another step in the evolution. Production CVT is another step and now SMG and DSG is another step on the branch that "Tiptronic" started.

Since 'Feras has already mostly said it... I'll say this too (don't take it personally)...

This attempt to bend the meaning of automatic transmission and manual transmission is just a "feel good" attempt by "enthusiasts" who are either too lazy to drive a manual or can't be bothered to figure it out. 2 hours of bumper to bumper traffic? Boohoo... cry me a river. Did it in a '90 V8 Mustang (read HEAVY clutch) in the US and I did it plenty in my previous car (Honda Ascot) in Japan. YOU want to talk about traffic?! Try Tokyo... morning rush hour, lunch rush hour, evening rush hour on weekdays, heavy traffic all day long on all major roads on weekends (especially highways) and God have mercy on your soul if you are driving on the highway during holidays (regular intervals of 30-40km parking lots). Sure it can get annoying, but driving an automatic doesn't do anything to help for me... the TRAFFIC is annoying, the clutch/shifting is just background noise.

But... I'm almost always right...

therm8

Ahh, but semiautomatic is defined as partially automatic. So partially "operating in a manner independent of external influence or control" (eg human intervention). Which those transmissions will never do. They always require human input. I still say they're automatics (those with planetary gears, that is).

The attempt at labeling non Automatics (as they are conventionally defined), as Automatics is also a feel good attempt at sticking with the H pattern no matter what. Justify it however you wish...more connected with the car, etc. The transmissions are internally the same. Call them what they are, sequential manuals, direct shift manuals, etc but they don't fit the convential definition of an Automatic, regardless of any automated functions.

I've got nothing against the choices anyone makes as far as transmissions go. I drove an F-body with a 6speed for 3 years in Jacksonville, so I know what driving a car with a heavy clutch feels like it traffic. I also drove an auto F-body for a while. And honestly, in that application the auto was more fun. It's amazing what a good auto transmission will do for your opinion of them.

At this point I think I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. You don't get to do much of it here anymore.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

what choo talkin bout willis??????

to many options..... we have a manual and an automatic...duh


beers :beers

Japan8

Partially because it's requires limited human intervention. Shift only vs clutch and clutch.

What about the drag transmissions that don't have planetary gears? You're gonig to try and reterm them? They are already established as semi-automatics.

At one point in time, if they had a transmission (ruf made one) that handled the clutch work AND kept the double-H... I'd have been all over it. But over time I came to appreciate the amount of fine control over the application of power that the clutch gives you. So I'd pass now. Either way... that +/- stuff... always hated it. It DOES remove you more from the driving experience... like playing a video game at worst and like driving a simulator at best.

How can you be so pig-headed as to definite an automatic as planetary gears + torque converter, but can redefine a manual from manual clutch + gears + manual shifting to whatever suits you?! You say an automatic has always meant xyz in the auto world... well what the hell do you think everyone meant by manual since the invention of the car?! Ask people. Common people, OLD engineers... they didn't JUST mean it has a set of "real" gears transmission... that definition included manually operated clutch and the manual changing of gears (no computer override).

If you say so. Never drove an F-body... like Bascho... I'm a Ford man. I have driven my fair share of autos between family, friends and my current car. Never once have I thought the it made my driving experience better, that the car performs better, or even in traffic, that I ever want one. Everytime I have always thought that the car would perform better, been more fun to drive, passed that POS in front better if it had a manual transmission. Even when drinking coffee or eating a burger (in my younger years... eating is now banned in my car)... never thought "oh I wish I had an automatic... this would be so much easier."

Pretty much, but what can we do when they've banned political threads?

snizzle

So in other words, nobody knows

macnrx8

That's not what I am saying at all.... The auto RX8 is an auto... It's an automatic with "manual" mode. I can get in it and the transmission will shift for me. Just because you can put it in manual mode doesn't make it a manual. If it's a "manual transmission" by design but shifts for you, its an auto. When you go buy a car at a dealership, cars are described as "auto" or "manual". This description comes from the manuafacturer, not the dealership. I don't believe that any dealership is going to say, "it's a manual transmission that shifts for you". Like I said before, by definition manual REQUIRES you to shift. When you get in the RX8 and put in manual mode you do have to shift, but you can get in the RX8 and have it shift for you. Thats why it advertised, and sold as an auto.

bascho

That's my point.....with a DSG trans, in application it can be a auto, semi-auto, or manual based on computer programming. In design it is built like a traditional manual transmission.

saturn

Well, I agree with that. I don't think most people are questioning the similarities in mechanical components between a DSG and manual. But the current generation of DSG's are programmed to be automatics. Even though they have a manual mode and look a lot like manual transmissions, they are still ultimately governed by the computer to some degree at all times.

Ike

Actually they are not, show me a manual that has two clutches one each for 2 sets of 3 gears...