sti_eric

From the other thread, I'm curious to see how RX-8 club would classify VW's DSG and BMW's SMG. Are they manual? Automatic? Their own category (sequential manual gearbox)? None of the above? Here are some references:

How sequential gearboxes work
How automatic transmissions work
How manual transmissions work

Autozine's Tech Articles
Scroll down to the transmission section. They have automatic transmissions (computerized automatic and automatic with manual override), manual transmissions (clutchless manual, automated manual gearbox, and twin-clutch gearbox - dsg), and CVT.

Ike

JUst a couple definitions to help people out


adjective
1 automatic

operating with minimal human intervention; independent of external control; "automatic transmission"; "a budget deficit that caused automatic spending cuts"

2 automatic, automatonlike, machinelike, robotlike

like the unthinking functioning of a machine; "an automatic `thank you'"; "machinelike efficiency"

3 automatic, reflex(a), reflexive

without volition or conscious control; "the automatic shrinking of the pupils of the eye in strong light"; "a reflex knee jerk"; "sneezing is reflexive" "


"adjective
1 manual

requiring human effort; "a manual transmission"

2 manual(a)

doing or requiring physical work; "manual labor"; "manual laborer"

3 manual

of or relating to the hands; "manual dexterity""




There is no human effort required in a DSG and it is operated with minimal human intervention. At no point have I said the DSG, SMG, whatever, is the same thing is a traditional slushbox automatic. Use the term semi-automatic if you prefer, but it's still automatic.

Ike

P.S. Where is the semi-automatic option, because that's probably where my vote would have gone but since it's not there automatic will suit me just fine.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

its a manual - it has a clutch instead of a torque converter... end of story

DarkBrew

I had to call it a diferent class; not because I disagree with you; It's just that the marketing people try to pass off a slushbox with paddles or slap shift as a semi auto or manual 'race-like' tranny when the guts are just as slow as a regular slushbox. The DSG is a real manual tranny (two actually) with a clutch but happens to have an automation system to shift it automatically. You don't give up performance, you just give up involvement.

KYLiquid

my thoughts exacaly

Ike

I think involvement is the difference between a manul and automatic if you consider their literal meaning.

I agree with you on the marketing, in fact that's what this whole thing is about and why there is so much confusion about what to call something. So I'm going with the KISS school of thought

Aspire705

How about "Own category: Sequential Gearbox"?
Whether it's auto or manual, depends on whether or not it comes equipped w/ computer control & accompanying hardware that does the "shifting" for you. My $.02.

khtm

How could anyone think it's a "manual" when there's absolutely nothing "manual" about it...it changes gears automatically without user intervention.

DarkBrew

I came here for an arguement, dammit! I guess we can all unite agaist the common enemy! (Marketing)

cleoent

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

If i had to pick between call it a manual or calling it an auto, i would choose manual. But they are so awesome that they deserve their own term.

Rhawb

Will the DSG or SMG systems actually shift automatically without the user's discretion? (as in the "auto" button on Ferrari's paddle flapping system?)

I think so long as the user has full control of when the car shifts and there are no computers dictating what you can and can't do, it's a Sequential Manual/Direct Shift Gearbox. If the thing does an idiot upshift after spending a certain amount of time in a gear without the user "allowing" it, then it's an auto.

I prefer to keep that "SMG" type term around since they really don't fit as either as a pure auto or a pure manual. It's just a sort of middle ground between the two types.

Oh, and if anyone's wondering - I call the automatics with a gear selector screen "automatics with buttons" since they don't really "shift" so much as let you choose what the transmission MIGHT to do sometime within the next 5-10 seconds. I used to love trying to tell the button shifter on my IS300 to downshift only to be told that 30 or 40 mph was too fast for second gear.

Ike

Yes, they will shift for you even if you don't hit the paddle/button. The DSG will rev a touch past redline before shifting when in certain modes but it always shift for you if you don't do it. Also, if you try to maintain a high RPM near redline for more than a couple seconds it will shift for you.

Rhawb

Lame. Okay, lump them in with automatics then. Last I checked my manual car won't upshift no matter how long I keep it near redline and it still hasn't broken - no "manual" car should be deciding what the driver should be doing. Consider my vote changed.

To think I was thinking of getting an SMG on my next car if it was available...

saturn

I had to go with none of the above because it's a bad poll.

There's no way it's a manual -- anyone who thinks that the word MANUAL is the same thing as CLUTCH needs to go to 3rd grade.

It's almost an automatic (based on terminology and not hardware) but in the shift-yourself mode requires direct human input to derive a direct human output that is the same exact output that would occur in a manual transmission. Very fine line.

It's not a "sequential manual gearbox" because you lumped in DSG which preselects gears. When you downshift from 6-2 you do NOT have to go 6-5-4-3-2. It actually goes 6-5-2. That's not sequential at all.

Thus, I arrived at "none of the above". I would have voted "semi-automatic" even though the connotation for that term is a traditional automatic with paddles or other such button. I'm going with terminology only.

Ike

Thing is even in "shift-yourself mode" it will still shift for you. The tranny is so good I don't even see the point of the buttons on the steering wheel other than to make the videogame generation happy.

saturn

Yeah, that's something I really don't understand. From what I read if you stick it in "S" it'll be in automatic mode (just like "D") until you flick a paddle. Once you do that, it supposedly will NEVER shift for you. Now, if you do that and then leave the paddles alone for say, 5 minutes, will it take over control again? If not, why do they make you click the paddle the first time ONLY -- seems sorta arbitrary. Most semi-autos of today will obey your command and only your command whenever it's in its idea of "sport mode".

The buttons are there because it really is fun to hit the buttons for downshifts, wait for the shift, and then go zooming away. It's nice to be able to downshift before you enter a turn too so you don't upset the car when it's going around the turn. That's something you manual people are used to being able to do, but it's basically impossible in an auto without those fun little buttons. I know it's not the same, but it makes a very big difference.

Ike

Even in S it still shifts for you a little past redline, it also downshifts for you when you brake. In other words it always has control, it just can fool you into thinking you have control as long as you shift before redline, but if you're shifting before redline what's the point of having the buttons in the first place. This is no different from every other semi-auto on the market, they will only allow you to have control of when ti shifts to a certain point, all the others are worse than the DSG and won't let you rev as high before shifting for you.

It shifts so fast and so smoothly there's no shifting to wait for and it won't upset anything even if you shift it mid turn, and really no need to use the buttons since if you just allow it to shift for you it will skip to the proper gear rather than you pressing the button a few times. Honestly, the system is so good it made for a cerebral and cold driving experience. Someone who has only driven an auto might thinks it's a lot of fun, someone that only buys manuals because they think they're faster might like it or if they've considered autos because of their daily commute might think it's a great alternative, but I don't think many people that love driving manuals are going to drive one and think it's a lot of fun.

saturn

I read in an article on vwvortex.com that "on the cars we drove you could bog it to death or run it clear into the redline and the DSG obeyed your command". To me, that kinda implies that it won't shift for you even once in redline territory. Now, they could just be wrong or they might be talking about European models.

I'd obviously have to try it to know, but I would think that a car with tons o' power and a smooth transmission like the DSG would be great. Smooth most of the time and then a lot of tug on you when you downshift 3 or 4 gears. But, you might actually be right about the buttons being unnecessary. Very weird.

But I definitely agree that I think most people who love to drive manuals are going to keep doing so. The only ones that might jump ship are the ones that are borderline to begin with for medical or practical reasons (e.g. - 2 hour traffic jams each day).

But I'll put it this way. If an RX-8 comes out with ~300whp I don't care if it's a turkey sandwich that controls the transmission. I'll do and deal with whatever I need to do to drive it.

Ike

As for the comments from VWvortex, they're half right. Yeah you can run it to redline, but once you get a touch beyond it shifts for you. As for bogging, I had it in S mode and didn't even bother downshifting with the buttons a few times and each time it would downshift to a lower gear. Perhaps it's possible to get it at a point where it's a little low in revs in a gear if you don't downshift but it will never let you bog the thing down to the point where it could do damage. Not that it's a bad thing that the car won't allow you to do damage to it, but it really made me wonder during my testdrive why anyone would even bother with the buttons after a few weeks of ownership once the novelty has worn out.

snizzle

so DSG upshifts regardless? the RX8 AT doesn't even do that..... although it will prevent engine damage

Glyphon

basically it is a novelty item that will seldom be used. the only real time after the initial novelty wears off is when you want to force the car to be in a lower gear, for more engine braking, such as going down a long hill and you don't want to ride your brakes.

evilmiata

I drove one of the first DSGs (Audi TT 3.2) in Jan '04. I don't remember the exact details, but at one point it held at redline, no matter how much I mashed the pedal. Also, the paddles work in any mode; even in "full auto" a flick of a paddle will downshift. The computer will hold that gear for 10 seconds and then upshift unless there is further user input. Pretty cool in theory, but its not very fun to drive. I remember thinking, this is it?

Feras

iTrader: (1)

i dont care if it has a clutch or not i dont care if it can shift faster than me. unless im sticking my hand on the shifter mashing down the clutch and decided exactly what i want to do, keep it the f*ck away from me. Its an automatic and it takes away from the driver's experience.

Animagix

i think dsg type trannies could possibly handle a 6 port renesis with 9k redline. It's the future of automatics.