cleoent

FWIW, this seems to be the consensus on the bimmer boards as well.

Defining characteristic of an auto transmission is a torque converter, defining characteristic of a manual transmission is a clutch. YMMV

macnrx8

Just wondering cleoent...I believe this thread started from another thread about the VW GTI. I drove a GTI this morning and just like Ike said, it shifted just above redline on its own. Would you consider this a "manual" or "automatic".

bascho

The real question of whether a DSG is a auto or manual is what you use as criteria for each. If you are talking about the transmissions only (no vehicle application involved) then the DSG is a manual transmission. If you are using the application of the DSG in a vehicle, then you have to look at each manufacturer differently. Some will have the computer automatically shift in certain situations such as 'past redline' or 'deceleration without a user input'. Some manufacturers will set modes for full auto, semi-auto and full-manual. Since the transmission itself is a manual.....it can be controlled as a manual. All optional auto and semi-auto controls are computer programs set by the car manufacturer.

macnrx8

After some research, I agree with you. One of the original questions was whether or not the VW GTI is manual or automatic. The GTI will shift for you if you do not(upshift and downshift). In this situation I think it's an auto.

cleoent

Well, again, like i said two posts above, the general consensus that i happen to agree with is...

automatic tranny's have a torque converter
Manual tranny's have a clutch.

The DSG has a clutch ergo the DSG would be a manual. But, it does suck that VW doesn't give you the option to hold the gear, I am very curious to see if this is a N/A (north america usually gets jipped because of fear of lawsuits. I can imagine that VW would be sued if some idiot banged his car off the rev limiter for 2 hrs and blew up his engine and then sued VW when they wouldn't replace it under warranty, only in america ) thing only, or if the same is true with the european DSG system. I'm also curious if this is just with the GTI, or if other DSG equipped cars have the same problem. I know i would not like it if it did that, however, holding the gear is not a defining characteristic to me.

Edit: Like i've been saying, it's not that DSG system in the GTI is incapable of holding the gear, it's that it's not programmed to for longer engine life.

Japan8

My feelings exactly! No clutch and no double-H means I no buy.

Sequential actually sucks anyway. Ever ride a motorcycle? Damn things can be shifted real quickly... except when you need to downshift 2-3 gears. 1 is ok, but anything more is a pain in the ***.

cleoent

What bascho is saying is that no matter what, the transmission itself is a manual transmission. It's a manual transmission that can be adapted to different situations. This doesn't meant that the transmission ever becomes an auto. If i understood him correctly anyway.

cleoent

You are right

My wrist gets super tired when i have to tap 3 times to get a perfectly revmatched 3 gear drop

macnrx8

That is exactly what I agree with. DSG is manual. But, in this situation I think that it makes the car (not transmission) an automatic. Just wasn't clear on my meaning.

bascho

That is correct. The transmission by design is manual.....it's how each manufacturer controls it that makes in auto, semi-auto, manual in application.

Krankor

If you have to operate a device by hand, it is manual. If it does the work for you, it is automatic. That's just what the words mean. If you select the gear, the transmission is manual; if it picks the gear for you it's automatic. If it's some of both, then it's both (or neither).

But clutch or not has nothing to do with it. The problem is, of course, that, til recently, all manual transmissions were clutch and all automatic transmissions were no-clutch, so people could get away with using the same terms to talk about either distinction. Well guess what, you can't do that anymore. The clutch/no-clutch distinction is certainly an interesting and important one, maybe more important than who-chooses-the-gear. But you don't get to hijack words just because you feel like it. The clutch may be the *important* part of a manual transmission to *you*, but that's not why it is so named. Words have meanings and manual means controlled-by-hand, and it serves no useful purpose to try to muddle up the language by using it to mean something else. Get over it and get some new terms for the clutch/no-clutch thing. Then we will have no problem at all describing any combination of how-the-gears-are-selected and how-the-power-is-transmitted.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

they replaced the rev limiter with a gear shift... its pretty much pointless not too

and on the 2.0T, you shouldn't be shifting above redline anyway for max performance as the power curve falls off before then.

saturn

Exactly. This is about language and not technological components. If the words were torqster transmission and clutchy transmission, I would agree with cleoent. But you're summation that the word "automatic" as it pertains to transmissions means "torque converter" just doesn't make much sense. Otherwise it would be named something to infer the torque converter aspect and not borrow from an English word that implies what the word automatic means.

Saying that it's a manual transmission with automatic capabilities is linguistically acceptable if you define manual to mean "clutch". But the rest of the world (besides the BMW people apparently) are going to ask, "hey, can you drive manual" and mean "can you operate a transmission that forces you to perform shifts manually" and not "can you operate a clutch that may or may not be controlled by a steering wheel paddle or pedal and hard operated gear shift".

You cannot hijack these words. Insurance companies and car companies and rental agencies are going to refer to DSG/SMG's as automatic because they CAN shift automatically with no extra human intervention required. They mean just what they say they mean, MANUAL and AUTOMATIC, not TORQUE CONVERTER and CLUTCH.

cleoent

So if i'm sipping a cup of hot joe while driving down the street and i ask my wife to shift from 3rd to 4th, has my transmission just been turned into an auto? Because i'm not doing all the work?!?

In this situation, the computer shifts when i'm sipping my cup of joe, that doesn't make it any less of a manual transmission.

Just an FYI, the part numbers for the transmission of an e46 m3 are the exact same in the SMG form and pure 6spd form. If that helps any.

saturn

If your wife was a robot, then maybe you'd have a point. But automatic implies "human intervention". You still had to do something and so did your presumably human wife.

I'm all for saying it's a "semi-auto" and being done with it. Anyone who calls this a manual is going to run into instances of people misunderstanding what is required to operate the car. Personally I'm going to call it a "semi-auto with computer controlled clutch" or DSG/SMG for people that know that that means.

cleoent

Fair point, and semi-auto is better then calling it an automatic. But like i said, they are manual transmission being controlled by a computer, it's pretty cool technology. It's the evolution of the manual transmission. We're all winners with this kind of technology.

PoorCollegeKid

That's a good point. I haven't really spent much time thinking about those kinds of distinctions, so this thread is pretty interesting for me. Given what you said above, would you then say that the automatic RX8 actually has a clutchless manual transmission and not an automatic at all?

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

so if the DSG would not shift after redline and when you hit the rev limiter it automatically cuts the throttle for you - are you saying you also have an automatic throttle?

macnrx8

I didn't run it over redline but to see if it would shift on it own. While it's not the ideal way to drive, I just wanted to know if you could drive it like an auto while in "sport mode". I have no problem with the car or the transmission... I saw it as an opportunity to see if that happens and it was a chance to see how the new GTI's are.

saturn

I wouldn't give it a designation of automatic or manual. That's a generic term that has already proven to be cumbersome and inadequate when describing the current state of technology in transmissions. I'd call it a rev-limited throttle or something to that effect.

I'm not trying to argue semantics. I'm trying to argue reality. If you call this thing a manual, you will be in the minority and you will confuse people about what it actually does. If you call it an automatic, it's somewhat inaccurate, but at least not misleading to the point of unfortunate outcomes.

Anyone who gives two craps about this kind of thing will know what a DSG/SMG means. For the novices it can be described as a transmission with a computer controlled clutch system operated through the use of a gas pedal and optional paddle shifters, or TWACCCSOTTUOAGPAOPS as it's more commonly described.

DarkBrew

Do they put a TWACCCSOTTUOAGPAOPS badge on the cars?

therm8

This argument is quite funny.

The problem is context. "Automatic Transmission" implies quite a bit more than "shifts for you" when taken in proper context. People who aren't trying to down the sequential gearboxes, simply because they refuse to give up archaic technology, can use the proper context in their argument. Defining automatic and manual, without using them in automotive terms is silly. An Automatic Transmission's defining qualities include a torque converter and planetary gears. Just because a sequential transmission can shift without human intervention, doesn't make it an automatic transmission. It makes it a manual transmission that uses a computer to shift. The defining qualities of a typical manual transmission remain intact. To call it an automatic transmission, just means you're either stubborn or ignorant. Leave the self-serving interpretation of definitions to those in politics.

Japan8

Are you referring to bike or car? If bike... you must ride like a grandma. When coming in hot on a turn... brake, rev match down shift 3 gears... not impossible, but a real bitch a) you can't skip gears directly b) bike transmissions aren't always 100% when you hit the shifter (only made worse if you don't have under size 10 feet). No it isn't just me. It's so well-known that it's taught in Japanese driving school to give the shifter a few extra firm taps to make sure it's in first.

You wrist gets super tired eh?...

Japan8

Wait a min. here... I understand what you've been saying but, don't you think that all this is just trying to reinterpret the original meaning of "automatic transmission" and "manual transmission"? Honestly. Torque converters, belts and all that "standard" auto transmission loveliness arose because they didn't have computers to run shifting and hydro-actuated clutches. If they did... do you think that the "standard" auto would have ever been made? Probably not. These DSG/SMG transmissions wouldn't have these cutesy 3 letter names, but instead be called automatic transmissions (particularly they can and/or will choose the gears for you (force upshift or downshift) ). The point behind the nomenclature is that one requires you to control the application of power from the engine to the wheels (clutch) and choose the appropriate gear ratio for driving conditions. The other does both of these automatically. The nomenclature was based upon function/application.

I suppose that this conincides with what you said somewhat... by function/application it is an automatic transmission. However calling it manual because it has cogs and gears would be a bit of a misnomer in my opinion. Probably the best thing is like with CVT transmissions... make the hardware it's own category (do you really think that you could shift the SMG-II transmission fully manually (clutch and double-H)? )... function/application is a case-by-case thing, but it sounds like both DSG and SMG are automatics with the option of choosing your own gears.

Japan8

Sounds more like you like to redefine things to make yourself feel better. Also sounds like you are one of the types that like to dictate rules, morality and such to others.

At least I never said that DSG/SMG should be banned... and I'm pretty sure that Ike and many others haven't either. You want one? Good for you, get one then. They can 100% replace "traditional" automatic transmissions, in my opinion. But don't remove the option for a traditional manual transmission (like BMW tried with the new M5). To each his own. The only problem is that this is starting to look more and more like companies want to "make things easier" for themselves and just offer the one transmission thinking it'll make everyone happy... perfect example is BMW. This is where we are going to start fighting.

Just because something is "traditional" or "old" doesn't make it bad or obselete.