The End of Manual Shift?
10-30-2008, 07:08 PM
#1
Registered
Thread Starter
The End of Manual Shift?
pretty interesing read. we all know that all the new ferraris have paddle, gtr has paddle. can this be the end of the manual shift? i . any how enjoy the article
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...umentid=656470
the manual transmission — the tormentor of generations of driver’s ed students — going the way of the buggy whip, the eight-track, the Hummer? That sounds like heresy to driving purists like me, who have always assumed that automatics are for wimps, for people who couldn’t tell a clutch pedal from a daisy petal.
Yet here I am, flying at 140 mph down the banked straightaway at Pocono Speedway in the new BMW M3. This 400-horsepower beauty of a sports sedan happens to be equipped with BMW’s latest high-tech, no-clutch-pedal 7-speed automated-manual transmission — basically a manual gearbox that can shift by itself.
A right-hand turn approaches, and it’s time to stand on the brakes. But instead of mashing the clutch, yanking the stick and blipping the gas with the same foot that’s squeezing the brake — the old “heel and toe” downshift maneuver — I simply flick a little metal paddle attached to the steering column. Both hands stay put on the steering wheel, making it easier to stay on path.
With no clutch pedal to push, my left foot sits there, as unoccupied as a teenager on summer vacation. The BMW even blips its own throttle automatically, danke schoen, making sure the dolt behind the wheel doesn’t screw it up. I arrive back in the pits, and the guilty thought flashes like a checkered flag: What’s the point of a stick, if I can have a self-shifting transmission this good?
Let’s be clear: I’ve been a stick-shift disciple for nearly 30 years. In fact, I’ve never owned an automatic transmission car in my life. But these new gearboxes are just so versatile, so easy — swift, precise, convenient – that I’m considering a date with the dark side. As with similar systems, BMW’s M DCT with Drivelogic offers the best of both worlds: Sit back, relax, drive it like any conventional automatic. But when the curvy road beckons you can shift manually, even selecting settings that boost the intensity of gear changes until you’re in Speed Racer territory.
Manually shifted transmissions are certainly an endangered species. Back in 1980, more than 35 percent of all cars were sold with a stick. Because they cost less and boosted fuel mileage, manuals were more popular when gas prices went up or the economy went down, according to Mike Omotoso, powertrain analyst for J.D. Power and Associates.
Then the SUV appeared, which often came automatic-only. By 2005 only 6 percent of all buyers bothered with a stick. Skyrocketing fuel prices and more choices in small cars brought a mild uptick to 7.7 percent last year, but the trend is clear.
Porsche is one carmaker that has kept the faith. The sports car-centric brand sells a higher percentage of sticks than any other, from 60 to 65 percent on all its sports cars. Yet even Porsche officials say that automated gearboxes are a key to maintaining the brand’s appeal among new generations. “So many young people never learn how to drive a stick, unless a parent makes a point of teaching them,” said spokesman Tony Fouladpour.
Discuss: If performance improves, does the tranny matter?
As such, the German automaker expects its new PDK dual-clutch automatic to be the company's most popular automatic ever. "That's the progression even pure sports cars have taken," says Porsche spokesman Dave Engelman. As a result, Porsche anticipates that 70 to 80 percent of 911 owners will opt for the auto box, especially in the early going.
These systems are dramatically defying the old arguments for a manual transmission. For instance, it's widely believed that manuals are more fuel-efficient than automatics. Sorry, that's no longer true. The latest Porsche is one of several cars that's more economical with the automatic: 19/27 mpg in city/highway driving, compared to 18/25 mpg with the stick.
Another myth is that manuals accelerate faster. Wrong again. The Porsche and other models are faster with computer-controlled trannies. These automatics shift so quickly that no human being, not even the world's best drivers in Formula 1, can match their abilities.
Lapping the 911 Carrera and Carrera S at Miller Motorsports Park in Utah, I get my own high-speed introduction to the system's no-excuses performance. And as I segue from the track to a relaxed run to Park City, I realize the 911, which has always been one of the world's most versatile sports cars, is even more of a dual-threat machine. Porsche spokesman Bernd Harling took pains to distinguish the new breed of automatics from the "geriatric support systems" of old.
"They're faster, they make you a better driver, yet fuel consumption goes down," he said. The latter is no small matter, with automakers warily eyeing a federal mandate that will require cars and trucks to average 35 mpg by 2020.
It's the same story with the venerable Chevy Corvette. As its automatic transmissions become better and faster, more customers take the plunge. Two of every three Corvette coupe buyers choose the six-speed paddle-shifted automatic. For the convertible, 75 percent choose the clutch-free version.
Harlan Charles, Corvette product manager, notes that the ultra-high-performance Z06 and ZR1 models don’t offer an automatic at all. And the ‘Vette purist still demands a stick. “For the Corvette, there will always be sufficient demand, so the manual is here to stay,” Charles said.
One remaining hang-up is cost. Audi’s S Tronic (formerly called DGS), the pioneering dual-clutch system that’s now shared with VW models, adds more than $2,000 to the price. Porsche’s PDK will add an eye-popping $4,080. Yet some serious performance cars, including the Nissan GT-R and the $1.3 million Bugatti Veyron, are automated trannies or nothing. Among Ferraris and Lamborghinis I’ve driven lately, finding a stick shift is like finding an honest banker on Wall Street.
Honestly, I still find joy in self-shifting. One of my biggest kicks recently was testing the Koenigsegg CCX — an insanely rare, 806-horsepower, $1.1 million Swedish supercar. I jumped in and discovered a classic aluminum manual shifter, just waiting to grab my hand and go out to play.
Perhaps the only argument left for manuals that holds any water: A stick is simply more fun. It makes you feel like the pilot, in control instead of along for the ride. I’ll agree with the purists that a stick is more “involving.”
"It's not all about lap times," said Timo Resch, Porsche's North American product planner. "At least for now, some customers still want to use their left foot and shift."
Yet when technology and traditionalism fight, we know what usually wins. I’m sure twisting a crank to start your car felt pretty involving. I remember what panic stops in the rain felt like before the advent of anti-lock brakes. Those are feelings I can do without. And the older I get, the less patience I have for driving a manual in heavy rush-hour traffic — the constant shifting, the two-step polka on the pedals.
Discuss: If performance improves, does the tranny matter?
Sure, learning to drive a stick was a rite of passage, handed down for generations. Mastering a manual said not only that you knew your way around a car, but that you were becoming a man. But 20 years from now, young drivers may wonder what the fuss was about. Like kids who’ve never heard of the Beatles, they’ll give us a pitying look when we start going on about the days when “real” cars had three foot-pedals and something called a “shift ****.”
A Michigan native raised and forged in Detroit and a former auto critic at the Detroit Free Press, Lawrence Ulrich now lives in Brooklyn, New York. His reviews and features appear regularly in The New York Times, Robb Report, Popular Science and Travel + Leisure Golf.
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...umentid=656470
the manual transmission — the tormentor of generations of driver’s ed students — going the way of the buggy whip, the eight-track, the Hummer? That sounds like heresy to driving purists like me, who have always assumed that automatics are for wimps, for people who couldn’t tell a clutch pedal from a daisy petal.
Yet here I am, flying at 140 mph down the banked straightaway at Pocono Speedway in the new BMW M3. This 400-horsepower beauty of a sports sedan happens to be equipped with BMW’s latest high-tech, no-clutch-pedal 7-speed automated-manual transmission — basically a manual gearbox that can shift by itself.
A right-hand turn approaches, and it’s time to stand on the brakes. But instead of mashing the clutch, yanking the stick and blipping the gas with the same foot that’s squeezing the brake — the old “heel and toe” downshift maneuver — I simply flick a little metal paddle attached to the steering column. Both hands stay put on the steering wheel, making it easier to stay on path.
With no clutch pedal to push, my left foot sits there, as unoccupied as a teenager on summer vacation. The BMW even blips its own throttle automatically, danke schoen, making sure the dolt behind the wheel doesn’t screw it up. I arrive back in the pits, and the guilty thought flashes like a checkered flag: What’s the point of a stick, if I can have a self-shifting transmission this good?
Let’s be clear: I’ve been a stick-shift disciple for nearly 30 years. In fact, I’ve never owned an automatic transmission car in my life. But these new gearboxes are just so versatile, so easy — swift, precise, convenient – that I’m considering a date with the dark side. As with similar systems, BMW’s M DCT with Drivelogic offers the best of both worlds: Sit back, relax, drive it like any conventional automatic. But when the curvy road beckons you can shift manually, even selecting settings that boost the intensity of gear changes until you’re in Speed Racer territory.
Manually shifted transmissions are certainly an endangered species. Back in 1980, more than 35 percent of all cars were sold with a stick. Because they cost less and boosted fuel mileage, manuals were more popular when gas prices went up or the economy went down, according to Mike Omotoso, powertrain analyst for J.D. Power and Associates.
Then the SUV appeared, which often came automatic-only. By 2005 only 6 percent of all buyers bothered with a stick. Skyrocketing fuel prices and more choices in small cars brought a mild uptick to 7.7 percent last year, but the trend is clear.
Porsche is one carmaker that has kept the faith. The sports car-centric brand sells a higher percentage of sticks than any other, from 60 to 65 percent on all its sports cars. Yet even Porsche officials say that automated gearboxes are a key to maintaining the brand’s appeal among new generations. “So many young people never learn how to drive a stick, unless a parent makes a point of teaching them,” said spokesman Tony Fouladpour.
Discuss: If performance improves, does the tranny matter?
As such, the German automaker expects its new PDK dual-clutch automatic to be the company's most popular automatic ever. "That's the progression even pure sports cars have taken," says Porsche spokesman Dave Engelman. As a result, Porsche anticipates that 70 to 80 percent of 911 owners will opt for the auto box, especially in the early going.
These systems are dramatically defying the old arguments for a manual transmission. For instance, it's widely believed that manuals are more fuel-efficient than automatics. Sorry, that's no longer true. The latest Porsche is one of several cars that's more economical with the automatic: 19/27 mpg in city/highway driving, compared to 18/25 mpg with the stick.
Another myth is that manuals accelerate faster. Wrong again. The Porsche and other models are faster with computer-controlled trannies. These automatics shift so quickly that no human being, not even the world's best drivers in Formula 1, can match their abilities.
Lapping the 911 Carrera and Carrera S at Miller Motorsports Park in Utah, I get my own high-speed introduction to the system's no-excuses performance. And as I segue from the track to a relaxed run to Park City, I realize the 911, which has always been one of the world's most versatile sports cars, is even more of a dual-threat machine. Porsche spokesman Bernd Harling took pains to distinguish the new breed of automatics from the "geriatric support systems" of old.
"They're faster, they make you a better driver, yet fuel consumption goes down," he said. The latter is no small matter, with automakers warily eyeing a federal mandate that will require cars and trucks to average 35 mpg by 2020.
It's the same story with the venerable Chevy Corvette. As its automatic transmissions become better and faster, more customers take the plunge. Two of every three Corvette coupe buyers choose the six-speed paddle-shifted automatic. For the convertible, 75 percent choose the clutch-free version.
Harlan Charles, Corvette product manager, notes that the ultra-high-performance Z06 and ZR1 models don’t offer an automatic at all. And the ‘Vette purist still demands a stick. “For the Corvette, there will always be sufficient demand, so the manual is here to stay,” Charles said.
One remaining hang-up is cost. Audi’s S Tronic (formerly called DGS), the pioneering dual-clutch system that’s now shared with VW models, adds more than $2,000 to the price. Porsche’s PDK will add an eye-popping $4,080. Yet some serious performance cars, including the Nissan GT-R and the $1.3 million Bugatti Veyron, are automated trannies or nothing. Among Ferraris and Lamborghinis I’ve driven lately, finding a stick shift is like finding an honest banker on Wall Street.
Honestly, I still find joy in self-shifting. One of my biggest kicks recently was testing the Koenigsegg CCX — an insanely rare, 806-horsepower, $1.1 million Swedish supercar. I jumped in and discovered a classic aluminum manual shifter, just waiting to grab my hand and go out to play.
Perhaps the only argument left for manuals that holds any water: A stick is simply more fun. It makes you feel like the pilot, in control instead of along for the ride. I’ll agree with the purists that a stick is more “involving.”
"It's not all about lap times," said Timo Resch, Porsche's North American product planner. "At least for now, some customers still want to use their left foot and shift."
Yet when technology and traditionalism fight, we know what usually wins. I’m sure twisting a crank to start your car felt pretty involving. I remember what panic stops in the rain felt like before the advent of anti-lock brakes. Those are feelings I can do without. And the older I get, the less patience I have for driving a manual in heavy rush-hour traffic — the constant shifting, the two-step polka on the pedals.
Discuss: If performance improves, does the tranny matter?
Sure, learning to drive a stick was a rite of passage, handed down for generations. Mastering a manual said not only that you knew your way around a car, but that you were becoming a man. But 20 years from now, young drivers may wonder what the fuss was about. Like kids who’ve never heard of the Beatles, they’ll give us a pitying look when we start going on about the days when “real” cars had three foot-pedals and something called a “shift ****.”
A Michigan native raised and forged in Detroit and a former auto critic at the Detroit Free Press, Lawrence Ulrich now lives in Brooklyn, New York. His reviews and features appear regularly in The New York Times, Robb Report, Popular Science and Travel + Leisure Golf.
Last edited by alfy28; 10-30-2008 at 07:10 PM.
10-30-2008, 07:26 PM
#2
The Slow and the Serious
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That sad day is when I'll either just buy used or start taking the bus. I don't care about numbers or convenience, it is simply the way I enjoy driving.
1997 Dodge Dakota 5MT
1998 GMC Sonoma 5MT
1999 GMC Sierra 5MT
2000 Dodge Dakota 5MT
2001 Dodge Ram 5MT
2002 Saturn SL 5MT
2004 VW Golf TDI 5MT
2006 Mazda6 5MT
2007 Mazda Rx8 6MT
At least Mazda has been fairly faithful to purists. Well, except in the US. In the real-world they have a lot more options for their vehicles. I'll stick with this brand as long as they make the kind of cars I like to drive.
1997 Dodge Dakota 5MT
1998 GMC Sonoma 5MT
1999 GMC Sierra 5MT
2000 Dodge Dakota 5MT
2001 Dodge Ram 5MT
2002 Saturn SL 5MT
2004 VW Golf TDI 5MT
2006 Mazda6 5MT
2007 Mazda Rx8 6MT
At least Mazda has been fairly faithful to purists. Well, except in the US. In the real-world they have a lot more options for their vehicles. I'll stick with this brand as long as they make the kind of cars I like to drive.
10-30-2008, 07:58 PM
#4
That sad day is when I'll either just buy used or start taking the bus. I don't care about numbers or convenience, it is simply the way I enjoy driving.
1997 Dodge Dakota 5MT
1998 GMC Sonoma 5MT
1999 GMC Sierra 5MT
2000 Dodge Dakota 5MT
2001 Dodge Ram 5MT
2002 Saturn SL 5MT
2004 VW Golf TDI 5MT
2006 Mazda6 5MT
2007 Mazda Rx8 6MT
At least Mazda has been fairly faithful to purists. Well, except in the US. In the real-world they have a lot more options for their vehicles. I'll stick with this brand as long as they make the kind of cars I like to drive.
1997 Dodge Dakota 5MT
1998 GMC Sonoma 5MT
1999 GMC Sierra 5MT
2000 Dodge Dakota 5MT
2001 Dodge Ram 5MT
2002 Saturn SL 5MT
2004 VW Golf TDI 5MT
2006 Mazda6 5MT
2007 Mazda Rx8 6MT
At least Mazda has been fairly faithful to purists. Well, except in the US. In the real-world they have a lot more options for their vehicles. I'll stick with this brand as long as they make the kind of cars I like to drive.
Not sure how I feel... I honestly need to drive one and see... right now I'd say I prefer the feel of being able to shift myself, but I cant really have a good opinion if I havent tested it myself.
10-30-2008, 08:12 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
I dont know about this. sinc e i havnet tried the new auto manual blah blah yet. i would hate to see MT being extinct.
First car i ever owned was a MT-1989 toyota Starlet Turbo
2nd car- AE86 Trunk Trueno
3rd 1991 FC
WHen i moved to the states, that was when i first owend a AT
4th AT-1994 Nissan Sentra
5th - 1997 Miata MT
current-04 8 MT and 09 Mazda 3 MT
i just prefer MT becuase i always found it fun. oh well, i guess we wll just have to wait and see
First car i ever owned was a MT-1989 toyota Starlet Turbo
2nd car- AE86 Trunk Trueno
3rd 1991 FC
WHen i moved to the states, that was when i first owend a AT
4th AT-1994 Nissan Sentra
5th - 1997 Miata MT
current-04 8 MT and 09 Mazda 3 MT
i just prefer MT becuase i always found it fun. oh well, i guess we wll just have to wait and see
Last edited by alfy28; 10-30-2008 at 08:33 PM.
10-30-2008, 08:13 PM
#7
If I was racing my street car for large sums of money, I might go auto to gain that fractional second advantage with every shift. As long as I'm just driving to enjoy it, I'll stick with the more enjoyable transmission.
10-30-2008, 08:16 PM
#8
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i think this issue is mainly in america.
in europe it's almost the reverse. 2/3 cars over there are manual.
and automanual shifter things are not the fastest. i've driven the at rx8 and avalon
in europe it's almost the reverse. 2/3 cars over there are manual.
and automanual shifter things are not the fastest. i've driven the at rx8 and avalon
10-30-2008, 08:39 PM
#10
tonybob failpants
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"BMW’s latest high-tech, no-clutch-pedal 7-speed automated-manual transmission — basically a manual gearbox that can shift by itself" is NOT the same thing as the rx-8's automatic transmission and DEFINITELY not even close to a fvckin avalon
10-31-2008, 09:35 AM
#12
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wait....automated manual?
i know theres manual
i know theres automatic
and automatic's that you can control when you shift.
whats the difference between automated manual?
i know theres manual
i know theres automatic
and automatic's that you can control when you shift.
whats the difference between automated manual?
10-31-2008, 10:04 AM
#13
Administrator
automatics like used in the rx-8 and avalon aRE SLOWER and suck up more power than automated clutch manuals. all of the trannies talked about in the article are automated clutch manuals.
nvr falter- automatics with torque converters are NOT THE FUTURE. you are wrong. Automated clutch manuals are.
10-31-2008, 10:06 AM
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well there are automatics which have torque converters and automated clutch (and some autoshifted) manuals which have no torque converters and usually 2 clutches.
automatics like used in the rx-8 and avalon aRE SLOWER and suck up more power than automated clutch manuals. all of the trannies talked about in the article are automated clutch manuals.
nvr falter- automatics with torque converters are NOT THE FUTURE. you are wrong. Automated clutch manuals are.
automatics like used in the rx-8 and avalon aRE SLOWER and suck up more power than automated clutch manuals. all of the trannies talked about in the article are automated clutch manuals.
nvr falter- automatics with torque converters are NOT THE FUTURE. you are wrong. Automated clutch manuals are.
)
10-31-2008, 10:23 AM
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I would gladly buy a RX-8 with a sequential gearbox.
As long as it cost about the same and isn't louder than the engine.
One of the minis that autocross has a sequential gearbox and the gear whine in that thing is LOUD.
As long as it cost about the same and isn't louder than the engine.
One of the minis that autocross has a sequential gearbox and the gear whine in that thing is LOUD.
10-31-2008, 10:24 AM
#17
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unfortunately i found out the bad way (i actually had mcdonalds :P)
waiting in the drive thru line, i looked into the window, and theres and automated drink making machine. all the workers have to do is put the cups on a little spinging table, press a few buttons, and the machines fills up with ice, tops off the drink, and i'm not sure about the lids.
10-31-2008, 05:02 PM
#20
Administrator
My first rough sketch but i'll be taking orders on these starting tomorrow!!!
For all of you who just have to that pedal beneath your left foot!! Pressure adjustment allows you to dial in the exact "clutch feel" you prefer or save the wear and tear on the knee for you "more experienced" *cough old cough* drivers!
Installs in second in any car!! Non slip surface just like a real racing pedal!!
- note: this is not a real clutch pedal. it is not intended to replace an ACTUAL clutch pedal in a real manual transmission automobile. it is intended for use only in vehicles which have no clutch pedal already due to automated clutch transmissions or true automatic transmissions.
For all of you who just have to that pedal beneath your left foot!! Pressure adjustment allows you to dial in the exact "clutch feel" you prefer or save the wear and tear on the knee for you "more experienced" *cough old cough* drivers!
Installs in second in any car!! Non slip surface just like a real racing pedal!!
- note: this is not a real clutch pedal. it is not intended to replace an ACTUAL clutch pedal in a real manual transmission automobile. it is intended for use only in vehicles which have no clutch pedal already due to automated clutch transmissions or true automatic transmissions.
10-31-2008, 05:43 PM
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You know what bothers me the most about flappy paddle shifters? The fact that I never truly know for sure which gear I'm in. Sure I can look down and check, but with MT I can just feel where it is, I don't have to look down to confirm my gear. I have this problem with video games - I often think I'm in a lower/higher gear than I am and it always messes me up.
Well, that and the fact that having very little control over my shifting is incredibly boring...and a little bit scary. Ever have a Vette dump a gear on you mid-corner? I know from experience that it's not real good for stability.
Well, that and the fact that having very little control over my shifting is incredibly boring...and a little bit scary. Ever have a Vette dump a gear on you mid-corner? I know from experience that it's not real good for stability.
Last edited by Rhawb; 10-31-2008 at 05:45 PM.
10-31-2008, 05:46 PM
#23
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10-31-2008, 05:50 PM
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I can enjoy and appreciate an automatic, but I can't have as much fun with an auto as I can with a manual.. I think it has mostly to do with the fact that I can just disengage the clutch, and rev, or idle along until I want to re-engage it.. that and I love the feel of holding the stick as it vibrates as I accelerate and shift..