revhappy

I spend too much time on here and evolutionm.net so I think I can compare the two cars problems. Essentially, the EVO's issues are the clutch and the paint. Now, the overwhelming majority of problems with the clutch on the EVO are due to people who drag race a lot. An AWD car puts a lot of stress on the drivetrain and often the clutch is purposely designed to be the weakest link. This is due to the fact that the clutch is the cheapest and easiest component of the drivetrain to fix. Still, a steel clutch line or an upgraded clutch have been used by many who want to get rid of this problem (though at the risk of causing more expensive repairs). As for the paint, well it chips easily and that is a legitimate flaw.

Now the RX8 - has had a TON of first year issues. It makes less power and gets worse fuel economy from what was advertized. There are the air conditioning and excessive cabin heat problems. There are also the flooding issues and there have been a few complete engine failures. When I first started lurking on this board, there were questions as to whether to wait a year or two to let Mazda workout the kinks, that would have been a good idea in retrospect.

As to the design of the car, you are correct rabinado. As it became more apparent that Mazda did not design this to be a top-notch sports car (in performance), my interest waned and the EVO captured it.

renotse

What Excuses? rebelzx

Here is a Little COMPETITION/RACING for you.

At the December Houston SCCA AutoX held Dec 6 2003.
221 drivers competed, out of those :

4 - RX8 best time 37.060
2- EVO best time 39.465
5 - STi best time 38.545
6 - WRX best time 38.846

3 of the 4 RX8s that competed bested ALL the EVOs and Sti/WRXs

Out of the combined classes (including prepared and modifierd) and 221 drivers the Stock RX8 had 2 entries in the top 10 times, 4th and 7th.

In the Stock classes, RX8 took 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best overall times in all stock classes bested only by a national ranked Porsche Boxter. The EVO was about 25th with a 39.465 time

For the last three months the same results have been posted, and the turbo-econo-box crowd keep ignoring the facts.

RX8 kicks BUTT on the course and Track

revhappy

I didn't see any at the Solo II Nationals where the EVO's bested all the S2Ks. I guess we'll have to wait for next year's to see the RX8's. However, I will admit I have been impressed by the RX8's performance at the local autox events so far.

donald121

I think EVO suppose to compare with STI, not RX8. :o Peace.

renotse

revhappy,

I was not able to attend the Nationals so I can not comment from personal experience on them. I presume from your bold statements that you were in attendance so I can l not refute your statements.
But for those of us who are less fortunate please elaborate on this Point. "the EVO's bested all the S2Ks"

I have searched the web and all I can find on the result at the below link. From that page I surmised the following:

a) Only 1 EVO was ranked in top 10 of AStock and it placed 9th with a score of 116.483, No S2000 was ranked in AStock

b) 7 - S2000s ranked in top 10 of BStock 1,2,3,5,7,8,9 with scores ranging from 113.291 to 114.901, all of which are better than the 116.483 EVO score.

c)David Hedderick placed 11th in BStock with a score of 115.051, which is better than the best EVO. David is the benchmark that Tim is using to gage his performance (and darn close now). I assume if Tim's progress continues as it has there will be no Stock EVO anywhere that can touch him.

SCCA Finals page

revhappy, Please correct me if I am wrong.

Genom

I made it to 3 races this year as I had never auto-x before. So I am a novice at this sorta thing. I do have some track experience from about 10 years ago, but this was with much slower cars :D (19 and in Mexico? yeah, I couldnt race with the big boys).

However I did manage to palce middle of the pack in BS for all 3 races, running 100% stock. My very first race I managed the worst time of the track, and then knocked 16 seconds off it to place 7th out of 13.

So yeah, it's fun for me!

Chuck Clifford

renotse posted:

"revhappy,

I was not able to attend the Nationals so I can not comment from personal experience on them. I presume from your bold statements that you were in attendance so I can l not refute your statements.
But for those of us who are less fortunate please elaborate on this Point. "the EVO's bested all the S2Ks"

I have searched the web and all I can find on the result at the below link. From that page I surmised the following:

a) Only 1 EVO was ranked in top 10 of AStock and it placed 9th with a score of 116.483, No S2000 was ranked in AStock

b) 7 - S2000s ranked in top 10 of BStock 1,2,3,5,7,8,9 with scores ranging from 113.291 to 114.901, all of which are better than the 116.483 EVO score.

c)David Hedderick placed 11th in BStock with a score of 115.051, which is better than the best EVO. David is the benchmark that Tim is using to gage his performance (and darn close now). I assume if Tim's progress continues as it has there will be no Stock EVO anywhere that can touch him.

SCCA Finals page

revhappy, Please correct me if I am wrong."

This is exactly what happens when you call their bluff, they go and hide and act like they did not see your post. Exact same thing happened a month ago. Renotse, I wish you would quit clouding this discussion with facts.

Plus, add to this that 350Z times are usually the worst of the whole group (when they run).

Good post renotse!!! Save this one, and when they do come back, repost it, we can use it like garlic on a vampire.

renotse

I'm sure this post will get erased like the last two. Never underestimate the editorial power of a EVO or WRX guy:D

revhappy

I stand corrected. For some reason, I thought the EVO did better than the S2K's. That being said, it should be interesting how the EVO does in the next few years (the S2K is has been out for four years). However, its tough to geta good, definitive comparison of the RX8 and the EVO due to the limited sample of direct comparisons and the huge variable of driver skill in autox.

Just curious, have you guys done anything to alter your stock setup during your events?

revhappy

As I said in my earlier post, there is not enough of a sample to assess the ability of these two cars (even though the EVO was initially put in the higher class). So far, I am pleasantly surprised at the RX8's autox performance, but I think most people consider road course performance more important. Given that the EVO generally beats the S2K by a few seconds (former s2k owners now driving EVOs), I think its safe to say the EVO should win on just about any course.

RX8-TX

I agree, and we are probably gonna have to wait quite some time until there is a good sample of 8's (both) in the competition arena. However, I am aware that both (Evo & S2K) are much better suited for a race course and AutoX. Nevertheless, I have faith in the RX8 standing its ground as time goes by and more cars are taken out there.

rabinabo

Yeah, I used to spend too much time at evolutionm.net also. Your argument about the clutch being designed as the weakest link makes sense. There do seem to be people that don't abuse the clutch and still have to replace them after a few 1000 miles. There are also those brake issues (which seem to be fixable by upgrading the pads). I just think of it as sign of things to come. We'll see what long-term issues come up and how Mitsu deals with them (if they do).

I'm straddling the fence in this debate as I don't own either car (although I do lean towards the rx-8). Overall, people tend to justify their car purchase by overlooking the issues with their own cars and exaggerating the problems in other cars. When asked about the evo, evo owners never mention that AWD inherently has more power loss due to the drivetrain, whereas that's the first thing rx-8 owners comment on.

I think the mileage problems are exaggerated, especially since non-8 owners here tend to quote the absolute worst mileage numbers reported for the 8. We'll see whether the power/mileage can be fixed by the aftermarket, and that may affect my decision to buy an 8 vs. evo. The a/c problems are being dealt with by Mazda it seems, and the cabin heat doesn't seem to be an issue for the vast majority.

Flooding can be avoided, and the engines that have failed have been completely replaced by Mazda, so they're definitely backing up the 8. Plus, it seems worse than it probably is because they're trying to find out what the problem is. Most likely the engine could have been repaired, but Mazda just replaces the whole engine so they can analyze it completely. Again this is a new engine, and unlike the evo engine hasn't been in production for very long.

Right now, the performance of the 8 is still phenomenal for me (coming from a ford escort), and I'm aware that after a while I'd get used to it and want more power. That's when I'd do some serious modding and try to give the evos a run for their money,

revhappy

When pressed, just about everyone of them admits that they have drag-raced or done clutch drops. As for the brakes, I have heard of some guys compalining about warped rotors, but again it seems the guys who abuse or at least work them extremely hard seem to come dowm with this issue. The main concers for me are the engine and areas further up the drivetrain, which seem to be solid and proven (been around more or less for ten plus years).

I'm coming from a Ford Escort too! I drove it for over ten years and it was my only car during that time!

rebelzx

renotse: Much better. :D

rabinabo

Hey, that's right, I did notice that you have a fort escort. I still have my 98 zx2, and I'm still fairly happy with it. Heck, I still outaccelerate most cars around here (La Jolla) at lights, but that's because everybody drives like an old lady. I occasionally go to auto-x, but I plan on becoming more of a regular with my next car.

I'm really looking forward to that big improvement in performance. Possible choices are an rx-8, evo, sti, or g35. If I consider two-seaters (unlikely), I would also think about a miata, s2000, and 350z.

The g35 seems to have lots of fans, but I'm sorry, that's not a skyline replacement. The awd model is a sedan AND it only comes with an automatic transmission! Sorry, try again.

For me (and most people I think), the evo and sti are appealing purely because of their incredible performance. With the 8, you have the draw of exotic looks, unique engine, excellent design overall, along with a very stiff body and good suspension design that I can possibly use as a base for a street/track car. When I have the handling where I want it (along with plenty of practice), I can then go with a super- or turbo- charger and see what she's capable of.

revhappy

Think about the change, 88 HP to 271 HP! Granted, its 900 pounds heavier, but its still a huge difference. Don't worry, I just got a Honda Civic as a new beater with a monsterous 106 HP. :p

That's a nice choice of cars. I'm not so sure I would have bought an EVO, if I bought lived in California due to the great weather and crappy gasoline. Many of the EVO's tests were done in Cali with the 91 Octane gas - which might explain why some people have beaten the Mag.times. I still envy your living in LaJolla as I have always wanted to live in the San Diego area.

rabinabo

Yeah, living here does tend to spoil you. Although I'll most likely be moving to the east coast for my next job, which will mean worse weather and no good mexican food, but the job will allow me to buy that new car

The zx2 has a total of 132 hp (I think), so yeah, the evo would have twice the power with an extra axle to drive It is awefully tempting I'll admit, and for a while I was formulating a plan to modify my evo with a Shiv Stage 1 and more Regardless I'm going to try to take a test drive in the Evo to have an informed opinion.

However, check out the comparison in dimensions between the zx2, 8, and evo (in inches:

length 175.2 174.3 178.5
height 52.3 52.8 57.1
width 67.4 69.7 69.7
wheel base 98.4 106.4 103.3
curb weight 2464 3000? 3263

I like that the 8 keeps the roofline almost as high as my zx2. The evo is almost 5 inches taller. Now look at the length vs wheelbase. The 8 is the shortest, yet has much longer wheel base (ok, not so much more than the evo). Amazingly, the 8 has much more room in the back compared to my zx2. That's one of the main reasons I think the rx-8 is more complete package.

revhappy

I'd be happy to switch residences with you! :D

Ike

The thing you don't get is most serious autox guys compete within their class, where they finish out of all classes is just gravy. The BS cars are usually some of the fastest cars out there and there's a reason why they are all in the same class together, they are sorted very very well for autox courses.

However, it does bug me that you keep using the Houston example and the Top Gear test as an example when there is much more evidence that the S2K is still the better car in BS and that the EVO & STi is a better car around a real track. The level of driver skill in autox is so far ranging that using one example of some RX-8s toping other cars in one region means little.

Ike

RX8-TX

Only time will tell...

renotse

I disagree. Many run in X class

I agree, Rx8s are quicker on the course than EVO and WRX

I strongly disagree. This may be true in your region but we have Nationaly competitive AutoX drivers here. One is David Hedderick and his Boxter, who finished 11th in the Solo II Nationals BS. That makes him one of the fastest in the Nation and a pretty good benchmark. David beat a ton of top S2000 to get there.

Tim Pryor's RX8 has been narrowly beaten by David for the past 3 months and came within .074 this weekend of beating David. He might just do it in the future.

As for you Ike it's ok if your "bugged" I won't be losing any sleep.

rabinabo

I'm actually interested in your thoughts about one particular performance number for the rx-8, the lateral g's. I thought that the 8's numbers were much smaller than the evo, but now that I check with R&T, they both got .88g. Do you guys have different numbers that have been reported? I wonder how many g's the 8 can handle with stiffer suspension, like jic coilovers and racing beat sway bars, etc.?

rabinabo

Oh yeah, a little more history about the evolution of my car of choice. I started out being revved up about the STi (before Subaru even announced it was coming to the states). I didn't even consider the evo at first because of the 29 hp difference

When I started to hang out at evolutionm, I got so excited about all the mods available that I started to warm up to the Evo until it was my top choice. Hey, I'm used to ZX2 aftermarket support which really sucks compared to most imports.

I also didn't consider the rx-8 because the engine had much less power, plus I was excited about AWD. However, I had admired the looks (especially in person at a mazda rev-it-up event) for a while. So I started checking this site out, and eventually the rx-8 pulled ahead in the race for my heart (cheesy yes, but what can I say, I'm a cheesy guy). When I sat down for the test drive, it felt like the planets aligned and everything was just right.

AbusiveWombat

I totally agree. My first autox my friends and I rented a Sunfire. One of my buddies (very good driver) beat a 300Z TT....does that mean that the Sunfire is a better track car...hell no! the difference in our times (6 of us) was 10 seconds on a autox lap that ran about 44 seconds. After that, I take autox times with a grain of salt. Plus, an autox really doesn't show off the full potential of most cars...the EVO being one because of it's low speed understeer and its weight.

rabinabo

Ok, now who's making excuses? I can understand the fact that lap times will vary enormously depending on the driver. But "autox really doesn't show off the full potential of most cars..." Come on, it's a race with a start and a finish, cones to avoid, and with lots of curves, so it "doesn't show off the full potential"? It doesn't show the full potential of the engine because you mostly stay within the low gears as opposed to drag racing, but it DOES show the full potential of cars' handling capability (unlike drag racing which doesn't).