army_rx8

lol i love it when people argue about things that are subjective

Ike

I just don't see it as subjective. The STi and Evo are two of the most purpose built cars on the road. Their sole purpose is to rip up the pavement and provide amazing performance for the money. That doesn't sound anything like rice to me... Calling a hoodcope that directly feeds air to a TMIC rice is moronic to me. Call them ugly, fine, that's one an opinion. Call them rice and that's just ignorance.

DARKMAZ8

It is so rice. TMIC are subject to a lot more heat then a FMIC. I suspect that Subaru keeps the top mount design because that hood scoop look is what people Identify subaru with.

I am not saying that it has a fast look so it's ricey. It has a look that is over aggressive and just screams "notice me".

The evo can do everything the sti can and still look like an everyday sedan.

DARKMAZ8

You're really hung up on what other people think of the sti, huh?

Ike

Maily just hung up on people making ignorant statements.

therm8

I'd rather have a hood scoop, that's functional, than an extremely large hood like the MS6. Most people consider functional parts not rice no matter how ugly it is.

mike1324a

Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements. (R.I.C.E.)Parts put on cars to make them look fast, when they have no internal tuning, and are actually slow as hell. Parts usually consist of excessivley angular bodykits, large rear spoilers, neon, sponsor stickers, chrome rims, fake "coffee can" exhaust tips, and loud, annoying paint jobs and/or vynils. Sometimes parts are do-it-yourself installed and are basically duct taped to the car. Most commonly known for being done to Honda Civics, but can also be done to slow domestic vehicles, such as a Chevy Cavalier, etc.

So although the STI and Evo do have some of the physical signs of rice they are not because they are in no way slow! Although the wings and scoops and such are rather rediculous they are (the hood scoop atleast) funtional.

globi

The large hood of the MS6 is functional too. Like the Subaru it does have an intercooler on top of the engine.

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

meh I donno about purpose built, if you mean inhearently inhibit a car for any asphalt good-griping surface by making it AWD and making it heavier then need be by making it a sedan then I would tend to agree with you. Ok that maybe a bit bias some people like AWD, I don't, and well as far as being able to beat anyone in straight line from a dead stop you've got that too, and around the track your pretty quick too despite that AWD handicap.

But far as fitting the defination of a traditional sports-car even the Rx-8 does that better suicide doors or not. Having driven an STI its a very easy car to drive fast, but a very hard car to drive normal. It lacks an overall sence of refinment and of class, does the EVO even have cruise control yet? That will forever be my take on these two cars, and if they continue to look the way they do I will forever refer to them as AWD econo-box sedans.

Although the concept evo X gains some points in the looks department, when it reaches production I suspect it looking very Alfa 156/Acura TSX-esque.

Ike

They're purpose built performance cars designed to do well on all types of surfaces and conditions. I don't see what them being AWD or a sedan has anything to do with that. Yes, you're right Polak, AWD is a handicap, that's why it's banned in so many professional race series It's also why the STI and Evo can whoop up on higher HP RWD cars on any surface.

Who said anything about the traditional definition of a sportscar, I certainly didn't, and that definition means dick to me. Now they're not purpose built because they don't have refinement, cruise control, and aren't great for cruising around town slowly... Get a clue little guy, you seem to be supporting my statement, not disproving it.

mike1324a

I do support most of what u say but the above quote is the exception. It only gets a head start off the line because it is AWD, but from a roll its a different story. If i had a 300 hp RX-8 vs the STI, anywhere but a stand still drag race, i dont think there would be much whooping of any kind.

Ike

It's not an absolute, I'm talking of various RWD cars... The Z ispretty close to the RX-8 in terms of handling, it also has 300hp (higher HP to the wheels than tyhe Evo and STI), it also gets beaten pretty easily on a roadcourse by the STI and Evo.
Beasides, lets talk about whp rather than chp. Lastly, would you care to show me this 300hp RX-8, if we're going to debate something lets use real cars

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

No the handicap I was referring to was how under braking and cornering RWD is superior to any AWD setup.

Think about it:
Under Braking, RWD will have the most rearward weight distribution (under acceleration), therefore it will have the best weight transfer under heavy braking to the front wheels hence more grip. During Cornering AWD has more stability, but a good driver will take advantage of RWD's lack of stability as a bit of oversteer will is the fastest way though a corner, AWD has an inherent inability of generating oversteer and lower power AWD's, like the base WRX, propensity to understeer, although the STI does eliminate some of the understeer issue, oversteer is still not easy to generate reliably.


about being banned from professional race series I suppose you can use the same argument for the rotary being banned from LEMans for so long because of its "superior" reliability and unbeatabilness as a race engine.

mike1324a

That may be true however there are indeed 300whp rx-8s. PTP's turbo kit yields 365 whp as well as some 300 Whp+ custom jobs. Just check out the major horsepower section. Their in there.
I am just debating AWD now. Both AWD and RWD have there pros and cons but in corners AWD does tend to have understeer.

Ike

I thought about it, and you're wrong. It's not difficult to get a properly setup RWD car to oversteer. AWD will carry more speed through corners and have a higher exit speed. The fastest way through a corner is to have the highest corner speed while maintaining a good racing line, having oversteer has little to do with it.

You're dilusional if you don't think that an AWD car can generate oversteer, just like a RWD car it all depends on how said car is setup. The regular WRXs tendency to understeer has nothing to do with it being lower power and everything to do with how the car is setup from the factory. The suspension as a whole is softer, the rear sway is smaller, and the alignment is not a very agressive one, and the diffs are not as sophisticated. What to know why? It's because the WRX isn't as purpose built as the STI and Evo...

AWD and RWD are both great platforms for racing when setup properly, but I don't think there is a "handicap" with AWD like you seem to think there is. These cars are fast around a track in large part because of the AWD, they're not fast despite it.

By the way, oversteer is VERY easy to generate in an STI, I thought you said you've driven one...

Ike

See my response above. I'll pick the 300whp STi or Evo over one of those RX-8s on a track anyday. Too bad we'll probably never see it happen, especially since many of the guys that are getting turbos on their 8s could care less about trackdays.

mike1324a

Actually there is a guy in my state his name on the forum is spyder doo and he has a greddy turbo (not 300whp) but he is into the track. Dont take my posts as attacking you. I have been for most of what you said im just putting my 2 cents in for my ideas on our differing opinions on those other issues.

Ike

Does he go regularly, and to what track? You never know, I might be able to find an STI guy with stage 2 (should be about the same WHP as a greedy RX-8) that tracks his car and would be willing to meetup for a friendly duel. Would be fun to see how it turns out if we could get it to happen. Drivers skill could end up being rather far apart though

Ike

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

Your twisting my words:
The best racing line is dependant on a tiny bit of oversteer.
As for and AWD caring more exit speed thats all dependant on the power and torque split of the AWD car and most of all the skill of the driver behind the RWD car. Speaking in generalities 2 equal weight/equal HP cars one AWD and one RWD, driving the AWD car around a track Fast does not take as much driver skill as it takes to drive that RWD car around the same track Fast.

It does have something to do with it being of lower power because lower power AWD cars with 50/50 torque splits will have a much greater propensity to understeer then higher power ones. But I do agree that that the suspension set up is shitty in that there is little difference between the front and rear etc. etc.

Ok so lets compare the Rx-8 and WRX, they dyno approximatly the same the WRX has a 10whp edge on average. Far as "purpose building" you can't call the Rx-8 purpose built for going around a track, it does it quite well though. Yet the Rx-8 does beat out the base WRX on a track, not talking about the 05's here with the up in HP as I can't comment on that.

I didn't say that the STI can't generate oversteer I said it was more difficlut to do then lets say an Rx-8. Don't STI's do quite poorly in auto-x's compared to the 8?

Anyway i'll be home later try not to twist this post too much till im back

DARKMAZ8

Is there a reason why the sti has a tmic? Usually cars that make 300hp opt for the front mount since in theory a fmic flows better.

Ike

It's complete horseshit that it takes more skill to drive a an AWD car around a track that it does a RWD car. They're different but it's not easier to be fast with AWD than it is RWD. I grew up racing E30 and E36 M3s, once I had osme money saved up and solf of my sportscard collection I bought myself my own track car which was a Talon TSI. It wasn't easier, it was different. Do you have any proof to backup your silly claim?

Exit speed having something to do with power I'll give you, all though it's not a large factor, and "all dependant on the power and torque split of the AWD" is an ouitright lie. Corner speed on the other hand which you seemed to ignore is almost all dependant on the handling of a car. Corner speed has little to do with horsepower and torque, yet I would be willing to be an STI or Evo would carry a good amount more cornerspeed than an RX-8, in fact I've seen proof of it.

Also, why did you bother just repeating yourself about lower power AWD cars understeering more. All you did was say it's true because it's true, which is complete nonsense. I've seen many very well sorted Impreza RSs that were qwll sorted and didn't understeer one bit, once again, it has nothing to do with power and everything to do with setup.

They didn't up the HP in '05 on the WRX so I have no idea what you're talking about, I guess you're just confused with the '06. Also, the RX-8 dynos on average higher than the pre '06 WRX, not lower. Yet the only comparison I've seen between the two on a real track was best motoring, it didn't go so well for the RX-8...

The STI and the Evo don't do so well in autox, very few AWD and turbo cars do. Yes it does have something to do with lack of understeer, but even more to do with gearing and the nature of turbo engines. Autox is a silly way to evaluate a cars performance IMO. Find me a racetrack with a slalom, and a layout where you never get out of second gear, with multiple 15-20moh turns and I'll think it's a valid way of evaluating performance cars. Wait, no I won't, I'll just think that racetrack is a waste of space... Autox has it's place and it can be an indication of some of the capabilities of a car, it can also be fun, but that's it.

Ike

There are few reasons.

1.) Crash testing and getting things approved with an FMIC is far more difficult, the FMIC on the Evo is the main reason why they aren't sold in Canada.

2.) At the horsepower of the STi and WRX (and the types of turbos they have) adding a FMIC really wouldn't improve performance, in fact on the WRX it would just add lag.

3.) Cost, it's more expensive and any gain in performance is minimal at best until you mod the car.

4.) I would imagine it has become a sort of Subaru signature.

DARKMAZ8

What suspension did this 8 have? I just find this statement very hard to believe unless this is a stock 8 suspension we're talking about.

DARKMAZ8

so basically the scoop is a trademark of subaru.

I have no problem with a scoop that's functional but the size of the scoop just gets bigger and bigger. I call it rice because it is there as a trademark. Even the older imprezas had the scoop and were not FI.

Ike

Care to explain to me how it gets bigger and bigger? The scoop got smaller for the '06 model, in fact it's the STI scoop is the same size at the WRX scoop, which is the same size scoop is has been for years. It is not there as a trademark, it is there to feed air to an intercooler. But like they say, ignorance is bliss.