Titanium RX-8

The weather is getting colder too. I guess that is a factor also. How cold has it been for you flood victims when this happened?

Lock & Load

BVD

Sorry to hear your RX8 flooded , however you and the other RX8 drivers who flooded their cars must be having the same dream .

Because as we all know the RX8 IS PERFECT and NEVER has any negatives issues , so please stop whinghing , you must have had a bad dream .

I am being sarcastic because i cannot believe some of the forum members attitude to this very real and annoying ongoing problem .

I for one am a realist and dont live in denial , and realize that not all is perfect with the RX8 , the car can be great even though it has its quirks and irritating flaws .

cheers
michael

AMG

weather in my part of town would have been approx 19 degrees.

Gomez

If you're fair dinkum about wanting to flood it ( but why the hell would you be ), park it for the next week........we are starting to see a pattern. The problem with flooding is that it can reduce compression by washing away the oil seal between the seal and the housing.....once that occurs oil has to be physically injected into the combustion chamber to lift compression again.....otherwise, no start.

Mazda have a proceedure that involves the removal of a vacuum line and cranking the engine with disabled fuel and spark. The lower pressure in the combustion chamber is then used to draw in oil from a beaker (hello , Labrat!) via a piece of hose to increase the compession back up to 10:1....

Read more about it here ...

Check the last page, note that it says not to crank the engine for more than 10 seconds while trying to start it.....

Regards, Gomez.

Gomez

I should have said it was not a "numerically" significant problem. I think you'll agree that I have been taking this issue seriously....check my other posts on this issue. I want to be able to avoid having this happen to me. If we can find a reason why it is now occurring, then maybe we can nip it in the bud.......buddy!

Gomez.

AMG

Gomez, your investigations are appreciated, but I also hope that MA and Mazda japan are also trying to find a cause.

However in the meantime they should have a techo available 24/7 for when our brand new cars are rendered useless.

Gomez

Yes, they should....

BVD

Thanks for the sympathy guys.

Yes, AMG, I was probably backing out before it was fully warm.

Having bought my first car 45 years ago (I was 12 and drove it round the farm) I've been through quite a few different phases of what's considered as "recommended procedure" with starting cars.

Warming up for a while was all the go many years back, but then there was a time when the recommended strategy was not to sit there idling or revving the motor under no load, but instead to start the enigine and proceed (gently) more or less immediately. I forget the details of the theory (and since then I haven't really been paying attention) but I think the general idea was that it was better for the motor to be working as intended - i.e. under some load - albeit light load and gentle driving until warm.

I noticed something in the RX8 manual about 10 seconds (although I saw the note that's it's illegal to idle a car like that in Germany??? Some sort of anti-pollution measure I guess.)

I always start with no foot on the throttle, and I usually let it run for a bit - sometimes even until it drops back from 2500 to 1000 rpm. I would say that it got its 10 seconds and no more today. It was also probably about 19 degrees outside.

I've also been aware of the flooding issue, through reading these forums. And frankly, many of the guys I've let have a drive have stalled the car (one guy of 77 stalled it 3 times... ) but with no restart issues.

Why it chose today to screw up I've no idea.

Pretty crummy if Mazda reckon that one of their flashes 'fixes the problem' yet haven't notified us with cars over 6 months old that we can get such a flash.

I might follow your example and email them with a little suggestion or two. Any particular address?

Cheers. Chris.

Lock & Load

Gomez

Thanks for your input i know you are taking the flooding issue seriously and are researching to try and pre empt it happening to you , wise move .

ID love to be there when Hymees pov pack gets flooded and has to be towed away to the mazda dealer now that would be a funny site .

cheers
michael

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Mine already has been on the back of a tow truck. I know what it is like.

I'm trying real hard to flood it...

And if/when I do, I should be able to have the precise procedure that I followed to be able to give to Mazda - hopefully as valuable feedback to perhaps benefit others - except those who thought it was funny.

Cheers,
Hymee.

BVD

Good on you Hymee, for continuing the great tradition of Hymee research and exploration.

Solving mechanical puzzles can be very satisfying when you crack it.

Reading the pages and pages of flooding reports in the tech section here shows that the problem has been very widespread, and not just limited to a very small unlucky few. Even to the point of some call out lines reportedly receiving several flooding calls per day.

My guess is that there needs to be the general conditions - which seem to be cooler weather, premature stopping the motor, etc. plus some unknown specific conditions.

Perhaps some particular combination of fuel and or oil delivery that can occur if the motor randomly stops at a particular point in its rotation - leaving something open that would more usefully be closed? Or maybe it needs to stop just at the point when oil has been injected but not spread, burned or generally absorbed into the cycle??? I'm not familiar enough with the precise workings of the renesis at start-up to know.

But several people reported that their car had stopped before under pretty much identical general conditions and not experienced the problem. I'd say that would probably be true for mine too.

Mysterious. ...

takahashi

It is down to the owner maybe not the motor. I have stall the car first time I drive it and should not be the problem when the car is warm. So idle a little bit (for a minute or so) will be better. For god sake, how much petrol is need, comparing with spending $100 to toll the car to a dealer for dechoking. (*I assume you have to pay to get to the dealer?!)

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

The Mazda Roadside Assistance covers the towing.

BVD

That's kind of insulting and not too helpful Taka. Why don't you think a little before posting that kind of smart **** comment. It sounds like you haven't read much about this, or bothered to think how nerdy and patronising that sounds to someone who just had his car towed away. Try the tech forum for pages and pages from owners who've had this problem.

And, yes, Mazda do pay for all the towing and fixing costs - something they'd be unlikely to do if it was simply driver error.

They have also clearly been working on trying to fix this FAULT or WEAKNESS in the car's original fuel map/cold start strategy. They just haven't had the decency to let owners know what they've been doing or advise them of the availablity of a reflash (which may or not fully fix it, but is at least supposed to reduce the incidence).

If you had bothered to do the reading, you'd know that this has happened under all sorts of conditions, including owners who parked their cars one day and found they woudn't start the next day, etc.

The fact that I've been able to start the car successfully for over 7 months under all sorts of conditions, and have never had a problem even remotely like this in 45 years of owning cars, may just indicate to you that there is a genuine, if unpredictable, problem with the car.

My local dealer is a small one, who've only sold a few RX8s, but they've already had several back with this problem.

timbo

There does seem to be a common theme with cars that (a) have had less use and (b) flood after a period of at least 24hrs non-use. Apart from this, it seems pretty random.

Gomez, oh ye of great mammaries (sp, oops ) do you recall any other common factors?

I am due for 30K service tomorrow. It's been bloody freezing here the last day or so (-3 this morning), so I shall try to stall when I take my car out of the garage in the morning. But I use the car every day -- and it's a pov pack (am beginning to think there's more than meets the eye with the lesser spec -- maybe less IS more :p )

timbo

There does seem to be a common theme with cars that (a) have had less use and (b) flood after a period of at least 24hrs non-use. Apart from this, it seems pretty random.

Gomez, oh ye of great mammaries (sp, oops ) do you recall any other common factors?

I am due for 30K service tomorrow. It's been bloody freezing here the last day or so (-3 this morning), so I shall try to stall when I take my car out of the garage in the morning. But I use the car every day -- and it's a pov pack (am beginning to think there's more than meets the eye with the lesser spec -- maybe less IS more :p )

AMG

Timbo, my RX-7 series VII was started two weeks ago after being idle for between 5 and 6 months. No starting problems, and it's management system is not as sophisticated as the on the 8.

It's obviously a management system problem.

rpm_pwr

AMG, earlier rotaries seem to suffer much less from this. My last RX-7 would stall every morning as part of it's normal cold-start routine. It was unavoidable, and I never flooded it once. Not even close. I think either:

a) It's a fundamental flaw with the new exhaust port location (the old ports acted as a pretty good drain for any fuel / condensation
b) It's the leaky injector (a-la FC RX-7) problem revisited
c) The plugs they're using on the RX-8's are just too damned cold.

timbo

Well, that's where it would have to be, but there doesn't seem to be any common factors regarding the flash version of the ECUs of cars affected. In fact, it seems more (2, as I recall) have the latest G flash -- which was supposed to have addressed this problem

timbo

Hmm .... thinking aloud

a) would suggest the problem should be much more widespread than it is (and should have been caught in testing)
b) sounds like the sort of random event that could be the source
c) seems unlikely given the focus on the ECU in Mazda's NA approach to the problem. Hotter plugs would be a simple fix -- but for the detonation dangers they pose

BVD

Thanks guys - back to some sensible discussion.

For those who have never had the problem, and who still think that it’s probably just some rare thing that happens to careless people in cold countries who treat the car in some odd or unusual way, please allow me to add a bit more. (To be honest, two days ago I would probably have been fairly close to that camp myself.)

Firstly, it was not particularly cold. It was after 11 on a sunny Perth autumn day. Tipped to be 23degress it was probably about 19 –21 or so by then. Nowhere near the sub-zero temperatures or crippling damp that some owners have to face when starting their cars. I was not even wearing a jumper.

I started the car, ran it for a few seconds – probably about 10 seconds and certainly well less than a minute – and began gently reversing out. This is pretty much the recommended procedure in the RX8 manual. I did NOT just jump in, start the motor and immediately stall it. I was nearly out of the carport when it cut out. To paint the picture, I was not stop/start edging out of a narrow alley onto a busy road, I was reversing out of a very wide carport onto 4 acres of my own land. Not a tough task. Particularly not for someone who has driven around a million kilometers and who holds licences to drive everything from motorbikes to semi-trailers.

Knowing that restarting can be tricky on these cars (thanks to these forums, and not through any decision of Mazda to enlighten their customers) I waited for a while before attempting another start. I also re-read the manual for general tips – which I followed to the letter. I then checked the forums in case of any extra tips specific to that situation.

During all this, the car showed not the slightest cough or sign that it might restart. As dead as I’ve ever seen a car.

As Timbo suggests, I had not used the car for a week. But for the past few months that's been my pattern anyway.

One thing that may be relevant is that the last 30 minutes of driving before the last switch off was done crawling along at below 80kpm - because I was hobbling home on a spare wheel. Incidentally the wheel is not only very narrow it's an inch or two smaller in diameter than the stock wheel! Another reason to respect the "don't exceed 80kpm sticker on it.

But heck, some city cars would get similar conditions regularly I imagine.

There are afew options here:

1) Mazda simply don't know why this happens yet.

2) They have figured it out, but it would take a mechanical re-design to completely fix.

3) They do know, but they fear negative publicity if they write to all their customers advising them that special start/stopping procedures need to be followed. Or if they need to do another mass recall for some alteration to be made.

4) They do know, but can't be bothered unless the complaints, and expense of fixing them, reach some sort of critical point.

Either way, it doesn't seem to reflect too well on Mazda.

AMG

Mazda is well aware of these problems with more and more examples occuring weekly. Heck I'm even thinking about doing it again to get Mazda's attention. For reasons only known to themselves they have not made this problem too public. Mazda IMHO produce quality cars, I'm sure the flooding problem will be addressed when they have the right answers. I strongly believe that in the mean time they should have a team of technicians available round the clock to get our not so cheap cars started again.

As these problems become more frequent the motoring magazines will take notice and Mazda's sales figures will be affected. I hope Mazda is reading these forums and are prepared to make a formal reply.

If these problems don't get solved there will be some serious legal implications. I didn't buy a $66K car just to be able to confidently enjoy it in the warmer climate.

Lock & Load

AMG

Why not writte to the car magazines , and point the flooding issue out to them .

If you and others who flooded your cars collectively acted together maybe Mazda would listen .

I must admitt its getting harder to enjoy this car if you constantly have to wonder if you are going to be next .

Speak up and be heard dont let mazda get away with no decent reply to this issue .

cheers
michael

AMG

michael, they need to be given the benefit of the doubt. It would be wrong to assume they are not doing anything about the problem. Could you imagine if a mass buy back is forced, they would certainly stand to lose a lot.

Lock & Load

AMG

Maybe Mazda needs to learn to communicate with its , customers a bit better for gods shake they have only sold 800 or so RX8S to date , surely being kept in touch is not to much to ask for .

Record sales in the car industry has resulted in car manufacturers treating customers with disdain .

cheers
michael