Japan8

I'd say that means either they weren't out yet as of the writing of the article, OR... they aren't so good on the 8. None of the major tuning shops are using it as their coil-over of choice. I'm only taking an educated guess here... but you can't deny that none of the major rotary tuners or even the minor ones... none are using JIC. That does say something about it.

In the exhaust review they are mentioned... last, on a page with 6 other cat-backs. The major ones got a half page to a page of space each. RB had at one point mentioned that their testing showed that JIC made you lose horsepower?! In another mag, they warn people to be careful which you choose. A cat-back may not make much more power, but the wrong one can make you make less.

PhineasFellOff

It's interesting what you say about how the Japanese mod community views JIC. I wonder if it's political or warranted.

Are you sure that RB explicitly mentioned the JIC exhaust made less HP? I know they do not mention names on their website. Did you communicate directly with RB? Do you have insider information? I always thought they had 2 or 3 of the earliest-released exhausts, which I assume probably included the Borla, GReddy, and possibly B&B.

Japan8

Well I am not exactly sure how the Japanese tuner community views JIC, but things are looking a lot like that...

Funny you mentioned that. I actually had no idea for quite awhile. There had been a big fuss over the statements RB had been making too, but at that time no names were mentioned on the site or in MOST posts. I ran across a post either under the RB name or Jim Langer that said they tested no muffler, Borla and JIC. JIC was the negative hp maker. Until then I had no idea. It might be possible to search the threads on RB and exhausts to find it, but that's A LOT of reading...

NOTE: If I am mistaken about which company was mentioned in the post, I apologize for the confusion. I'm going by memory here...

PUR NRG

I was surprised to hear JIC wasn't included as well since that sounds like a pretty comprehensive review. I can think of four reasons: it wasn't out yet, it wasn't considered for review, JIC didn't submit a set for review or they ran out of space. How well regarded is the RX-8 Sports Magazine?

"Cruising Master Type CS" doesn't sound like a sport coilover...

Japan8, I think we're all looking forward to your translation. Thanks in advance.

Regarding body roll in slaloms. The RX-8 uses progressive springs both front and back. In theory progressive springs give you a soft ride when cruising and get harder to provide control during aggressive driving. I prefer linear springs. As James-with-a-cobra-and-a-fancy-handle-I-can't-spell says, it's hard to make the RX-8 "take a set". That's the progressive springs giving you a constantly varying spring rate. The JIC coilovers use linear springs up front but are still saddles with progressive springs in the rear.

Remember body roll is a symptom, not a cause. I think linear springs (if you could get them) would eliminate the float yet still have body roll.

I feel like the one-eyed man in the land of the blind. Meanwhile the two-eyed guys with 20/20 vision are laughing at me.
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WENDIE 99

robertdot

They should stop laughing and start talking. I, as well as everyone else I'm sure, really appreciate your patients and willingness to help a bunch of noobs get our feet wet. You've already offered a wealth of helpful information.

I've got the book you suggested on order from Amazon.

Japan8

So the 8's springs ARE progressive. I knew it from the first time I got a look at a set. Thanks for the info. My knowledge of car suspension tuning is ok... I know my terms and basics, but never put it to use. My motorcycle suspension knowledge is much better. Either way I can understand a lot more about what is going on now. The sales guy here in Japan was commenting about harshness of the P5 versus the 8 and Mazda 3. I was thinking it was merely because of suspension geometry differences that they could possible use softer springs, but still get better handling. It's more like they went with progressive to make for a nice in-town ride and a firm ride on the track closer to the limits. A nice idea, but like on motorcycles... I don't like 'em. I don't like the change in feeling... and on a bike feeling is VERY important.... causes problems under heavy braking to say the least. In the case of the 8... this isn't so hot if you're doing slaloms.

Well my thoughts are similar to yours as to why the JIC's weren't included. The "RX-8 Sports Magazine" was a special edition issue. Normally the "RX-8 Magazine" is a section within the "RX-7 Magazine," which seems to be one of the major rotary tuner magazines... RMagic loaned them the garage for the exhaust testing.

As to the name of the products... don't think too hard on them. Especially for JDM products they'll have all kinds of "interesting" names in English. Basically... the Japanese creative use of English. The suspension you mentioned actually is recommended by the magazine for the street and beginners (vs experts and the track)... they were all rated on one of these...


Expert
|
|
|
Street --------------------------- Track
|
|
|
Beginner

... with a big dot near the intersection on the bottom left.

robertdot

Coilovers vs lowering springs... Besides the convenience of adjusting ride height, what are the advantages to coilovers? If I want a 1 inch drop, end of story, would coilovers still be worth the extra cash over lowering springs?

Will I need new shocks with lowering springs, or will the stock ones work?

rabinabo

Hey guys, I've been reading this post for a while now and have hesitated to make comments. I've read most of that Fred Puhn book, it's excellent, although it may leave more confused than when you began reading it, but that's the nature of the beast.

To answer your question, robertdot, lowering springs are just that, springs, whereas coilovers typically combine a spring and strut/shock that are tuned together, which also allow you to adjust things such as ride height, dampening, etc. Lowering springs are typically used to just drop the car with little/no improvement in handling compared to coilovers.

I should also mention that there are products that are marketed as coilovers, but are simply springs with some extra parts so that you can adjust ride height. Ground Control is the main company I know that makes these.

rabinabo

Oh, with the shocks, it depends on the springs you choose. Too extreme a drop and the shocks may be taken out of their comfort zone and wear down quickly. For a one inch drop, I would guess that the stock shocks would work. I know Eibachs in particular usually claim that their springs go well with stock shocks.

robertdot

Would the coilovers mess up the camber when you adjust them, or do they not move that far in either direction?

rabinabo

I think any time you change the ride height it changes the camber.

PUR NRG

Coilovers are used for two different purposes: on show cars they allow you to slam them as low as you want on the floor and take them back to usable drive height afterwards.

For race use coilovers allow you to corner-weight the car. Like adjustable heim joint end links for the sway bar it's one of the "get every last edge you can" techniques used to get the most from your suspension.

What is camber? In simple terms it is the amount the top of the wheel tilts in towards the car. Now think about suspension geometry: again in simple terms you have the wheel forming a triangle with the top and bottom of the shock via two control arms. When you shorten the spring you are shortening that leg of the triangle. This tilts the wheel in as well which increases camber. When I installed the JICs with roughly 1" drop, that increased rear camber by almost 1 degree.

Short story: Any time you alter the suspension geometry you need to get the wheels realigned. Even if the component lengths are identical the act of removing/replacing them alters things.
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Coach handbags

robertdot

so, why bother with coilovers if your camber is going to be off if you change your ride height on the fly (unless the camber change is not noticable)? If you change ride height, can you find the spot where you have zero camber again, or do coilovers just offer continuous +/- camber? I realize for some applications, adjusting camber is good, but it's not good for the wheel warrenty, if you know what I mean.

Like I said previously, this is my daily driver not an autox car. So, zero camber is a Good Thing.

PUR NRG

Who says you change ride height on the fly? In my case I drop the car 3/4", corner weight and leave it alone. Now the initial setup is done I have no intention of fiddling with ride height.

Zero camber is only a good thing for drag racing and stopping in a straight line. Negative camber is good for grip (total grip, accelerating and stopping) in a turn. This is another case of making compromises based on user preference.
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NEVADA MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

robertdot

I misremembered this.

At any rate, PUR, do you agree with this?

Is it in my best interest to get coilovers in the long run?

Am I wrong about my assumption that my stock 8 has zero camber?

PUR NRG

If you lowered the car 1/2" it doesn't matter if that's done with shorter springs and stock shocks or adjustable coilovers. 1/2" is 1/2" either way. The only difference at that point is the shock itself or the spring's spring rate.

You have to decide what's in your best interests. I am merely giving you information with which to make that decision.

Do a search on alignment and see what Mazda recommends.
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Lamborghini Estoque

Spazm

*bump*

Same boat as Robert =)

I've been searching around for info on the JIC coilovers, and so far PUR NRG is the only one putting up any kind of real information. Has anyone else gotten them put on their 8s yet?

PUR NRG : So, a few months down the line, how do you feel about these coilovers?

PUR NRG

Do they work? Yes.
Are they the best on the market? No. Penske shocks are better but cost more than double.
Are they a good value for their price? So far, yes.

Big fat disclaimer: I don't have any experience with other shocks on the RX-8 so I can't give any valid comparisons.
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Chevy Cavalier Wiki

AlexCisneros

I've said this on another thread... If you only want to lower the car for looks then buy the Tanabe NF210 Springs. They are the same rate (almost) as stock and shouldn't require a change in shock. It will lower your CG which will give you some performance boost. It will affect your camber. A good alignment shop should be able to correct this to within factory specs.

If you have no plans on corner weighting the car, then leave the coil overs to the racers