James429

OK, so maybe I'm retarded...or just plain broke. But I really need some help with my suspension. First off, it's stock. OK, now that you're all done laughing. Now what? I just did some canyon runs down Mt. Baldy with my friends today and I was the only one with a stock suspension and it showed. My new tires performed well enough...Nexen N3000 (245/40ZR/18 and for $99 a piece who's complaining...but I did get quite a bit of understeer (push) in some turns. So much so that the outside front tire would squeal quite loudly.

So now what? Are simply buying springs enough? I'm headed to Willow Springs (the BIG track) on Saturday, December 10th (PS - Anyone else who has $160 (I think) is more than welcome to show up) to race and I don't wanna' be sliding around/spinning out all day long.

ANY AND ALL HELP IS APPRECIATED...from you technical/distrubutor guys to the average Joe. It may be better to PM me directly...but I will check this post once a day too.

Thanks,

James.

Umbra

I went with RB front and rear sways, mazdaspeed front and rear strut braces, and HKS hypermax II coilovers. Big difference.

LionZoo

Fix the driver, not the car. For what it's worth, if you're serious about mountain driving, I would advise against suspension modifications. Yes I know it's a very typical upgrade that seems like a no brainer, but the truth is some roads will punish an upgraded suspension, especially if it's a very stiff upgrade. For mountain driving with its unique road surface topography, you don't want a racetrack setup, especially if your runs are longer than an hour nonstop. Since it's not as light as a Miata and not as stiffly sprung as a Z, the RX-8 rewards a smooth approach to driving; try to concentrate on making minimal control inputs and avoid throwing the car into turns. Remember: slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Also, especially with the dangers of going off the edge, sacrifice a bit of your corner entry to gain better exit speed. Squeeze your throttle, don't smash it, and try to concentrate on never lifting off until the next turn.

I think from what you're describing, your tires are actually the problem, not your suspension. If you must improve your car, get some better tires like the Yokohama Advan Neova 007 or the Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R. If you're planning to daily drive your car on the tires, perhaps a set of Advan Sport or Eagle F1 GS-D3. If you're on a budget, the Kumho Ecsta MX is probably the way to go. Either way, I think the Nexen N3000s are the weakest link on your car. And if you absolutely must improve your suspension, I'd suggest a milder upgrade like Racing Beat's setup as it addresses the only real problem with the RX-8's OEM configuration; a slight lack of roll stiffness.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Yup, that'll pretty much do it. Nice!

CosmosMpower

Actually I'd say just the opposite, the grippier larger size tires are probably magnifying the soft factory springs/shocks so you're getting body roll. The understeer is probably just going into a corner too fast and then when you try to turn it will just push.

I'd probably just get a set of koni SA's on the factory springs, a front swaybar and drive a little slower into the corners but come out faster.

fisherdn

If he's already fighting push, why add a front sway?

Wilson

Because when the body rolls, the inside front tire is not getting good traction. A sway bar would keep the inside wheel pushed to the ground better by controling the lean.

gh0st

bingo. i run baldy all the time. stock suspension is fine.

fisherdn

But just tightening up the front will increase understeer

Razz1

Yep it's the driver. Lion zoo is correct. Front sway bar will give you more understeer.

Besides Mountains are no place to push the car. You'll see what I mean when you go to the track.

I was going to go in Dec. but they are all filled up. You won't be sliding all over the place due to your current car setup. If your sliding it's your driving.

Don't forget take some instructor lessons. Ahh.. the slow guy learns the most and is the safest.

You don't want to be like another of our members who crashed in the last few weeks on a run do ya? Be safe on the streets save it for the track.

mysql101

Nice thing about RB swaybars is that you get rid of the body roll without making the ride any harsher.

Umbra

That's been my experience. Wider tires seem to magnify the body roll.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Wider tires increase body roll because the car is gripping better and has more cornering speed.
To fix the problem correctly you need to change your alignment first. All the other things should be secondary to improve your handling. If your suspension is too stiff, the tires will loose traction going over rough surfaces. The tire combination, you put on your car, is symmetrical. Just like what came with the car. They may not be the ultimate tires but it isn't the tires.
If you do decide to get a performance alignment, if this is used for regular street use, don't take it too far. You will wear out your tires far too quickly.

James429

You guys seem to have a wide variety of experience/knowledge. I appreciate your help. I'm going to keep you advised as to what I do. My reviews of the Nexen tires have been farily positive...I believe they are a Korean partnership with Bridgestone, so they can't be that bad. I am thinking springs first (tighter may be better) and then front/rear sway bars. I'll check back later...thanks for your help.

Umbra

Not in my case. I find there is more body roll at the same cornering speed. I could feel the roll difference between the front and rear with wider tires on the rear. I tightened the rear up a bit and I'm back to neutral.

stickmantijuana

i don't know how experience you are, but if i were pushing on a mountain course, you actually would want a little body roll. with stiffer suspension setup, you won't have much room for error. for example, the amount of time between easing your throttle and loosing your rear will be much shortened. with stiffer setup, if you're unexperienced and can't 'feel' the slide coming, you won't have enough time to correct your input. maybe you would for a few corners, but not 10/10 times.

i agree with everyone that told u not to upgrade. i say stay stock. if you become CONSISTENT in whatever corner you tackle, in whichever way you find the fastest or the most comfortable, then i would say start with stiffening the chassy, not the suspension.

and ur tires are fine. better tires also don't give you that screech sound before they let go. you'll find them much less predictable on a mountain.

bottomline is don't upgrade. 5mph less thru a corner won't make you loose your friends on a mountain unless you tend to hang out with professional race drivers.

manek1

James,

I'm telling you man I used to go up there all the time with my stock suspension. In fact that canyon run was the first time I've taken the car out for a drive since I put the coilovers on. Yes my suspension helped a little bit on how the car *felt*.

The majority of your grip issues is from those tires, not your stock suspension. Ask Paul how I was doing with my stock suspension in the canyons and Willow Springs. With my stock suspension I still would have been faster than your buddy in the 350Z that day in the canyons. Not trying to knock him....just saying.

The best grip mod you can do is with your tires....trust me.

manek1

His tires are not fine for the kind of driving he wants to do with the car.

manek1

James,

The springs will lower your car and stiffen your ride. Once you take the springs out on the track you'll think they're too soft. Also the springs won't make you noticably faster in the corners. Bottom line is your tires are what touches the ground and has the biggest effect on your grip limit.

I know you just got those tires, but honestly the first thing I would do is get a different set. Sell the ones you just bought on ebay or something.

1. get new tires
2. get used to the car on the track....some canyons (safely).
3. get a set of coilovers....if you just get springs at least pair them up with some aftermarket struts (adjustable ones).

Going to PM you my number.

That would be my 3 step.

RX8Maine

An anti-sway bar lifts the inside wheel off the ground. It increases the effective spring rate on the outside and decreases the effective spring rate on the inside.

RX8Maine

Can't say enough about alignment.

A little more negative camber in front with zero toe goes a long way toward eliminating understeer. I am on OEM tires (Dunlops) and all original suspension and have zero understeer. The amount of throttle determines the balance of the car. I can rotate and overster if I want to.

Alignment cost me $60.

FRONT:
Camber -1.0
caster 7.0
toe 0.0

REAR
camber -1.5
toe in 0.125

Great set-up on a budget with stock parts.

kartweb

Sounds like a perfect setup.

Most people don't seem to understand castor. More castor helps turn-in grip a bunch. That unloads the outside front tire and the inside rear tire - sort of like weight jacking - front to the inside, rear to the outside.

manek1

agree 100% on that too. i'm running similar specs, but with -1.5F/-1.8R camber.

RX8Maine

I'm jealous. I could only get -1.5 on the rear. Having the same amount up front would promote crazy oversteer . . . not good for a daily driven set-up. That's why I kept the front to -1.0.