Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I'm thinking that something is not hooked up properly . Either injectors or intake valves is my guess .
Sounds like it is running super rich when cold - have you looked at exhaust to see if unburned gas comes out ?


I think it would be worth taking the upper intake manifold off and checking everything is connected correctly


just had a thought - PM CRH as i remember he had his injectors crossed over and spent ages trying to troubleshoot - he will remember the symptoms .....

HeavyMetal699

True...

Might have to take a look at the workshop manual and see what I can do.

jmc23200

So........ was it?

HeavyMetal699

No, its already out of warranty.

jmc23200

Who performed the rebuild and who installed the engine?

Razz1

umm.. I was thinking a Cat .
Funny thing about CATS... they usually cause a problem when they are warm.


This is not a coil issue, its a low end warm up and rich condition when cold. Coils are elecronics. It either works or doesn't work. If it was intermient coil it would do it after it warmed up, not only when its cold.

You don't need the VAFD. Its only for noise.

I would suggest disconnecting it.

Remember you have to cap off the intake at the TB. There may be a reason why the VFAD was not connected by the dealership.

HeavyMetal699

UPDATE

Brian with BDC performed the rebuild and installation of the engine.

I didn't say who sooner for obvious reasons. But read the whole story before you jump to conclusions.







So here's the story.

At 99,000 miles the RX-8 had better compression numbers than my car had with 20,000 miles. At barely over 100,000 miles the Renesis lost compression in one of the rotors.

After contacting several members of the forum who rebuild rotaries it was decided that Brian would be the best person to take the car to. This was decided for 3 reasons.

1) Dallas while far away from Houston is alot closer than Tennessee, Florida, Georgia, or California.

2) Brian has a very good reputation in the rotary world. Asking around everyone had nothing but good things to say about him.

3) Price. He offered to rebuild the engine at practically cost. He pretty much offered free labor for the chance to tear down a Renesis.

The car was dropped off around the thanksgiving/Christmas holidays and it took about 4-6 weeks for the rebuild to be completed.

Nick autocrosses his car in stock class so he didn't want anything fancy, just a working Renesis with great compression.

After getting his car back his car never ran exactly right again. A month or so later this thread was started.

His car started running worse and worse and he finally took it to the dealer. Well a few times.

One of the first times the dealership pointed out parts were missing and hoses that went to places were capped off and tucked away. One of these things missing was the VFAD completely removed.

The final time he took it to the dealer the car was on its very last leg.

The dealership 3 critical problems:

1. Low compression, so low its amazing the car runs. The compression was lower than before the engine was rebuilt.

2. When the rebuild was performed hoses were replaced by autozone special. Some of these hoses have special connectors on them for very specific purposes. The fuel line hose is one of those. The rubber hose was stretched over the fuel rail fitting and hose clamped on. It was clamped on so tight the fuel rail fitting was broken. It was done so poorly that simply nudging the connector the fuel hose would fall off.

3. As you can guess from #2, the engine bay was covered in fuel. Alot of fuel. It was puddling on top of the engine. The intake manifold hides the fuel lines so the problem wasn't found until the intake manifold was removed. The fact that the car didn't catch fire is mind boggling.

The Technician at the dealership had nothing good to say about the work done. Once the manifold was taken off lots of bad work was easily seen. Including wires draped across the engine that were beginning to melt.


Naturally Nick tried contacting Brian. He didn't have much success at first so he ended up leaving him a less than stellar voicemail. I'm not sure if Brian every returned the phone call, and if he did was definitely was very prompt.

The RX-8 was Nicks main and really only means of transportation. Shortly after all of this Nick ended up trading the car into the dealership (blown motor and all) for a Toyota Corolla.


Most of this I just edited from a PM I sent Zoom44 2 months ago or so. We had a weekly meet last night and I asked Nick if he cared if I posted this on the forum. He gave me the green light so here it is.



Nick believes Brian to be a good guy, he just did shitty work on his RX-8. I got to meet Brian too because I helped Nick get his car in Dallas. I think anyone who has met Brian can say he is a genuinely nice guy. Unfortunately his first time rebuilding a Renesis didn't live up to his reputation. I'm not sure if he would of attempted another rebuild and try to make things right in the end. Talking to Nick I know that the communication wasn't there at the end. Some of this was understandable because Nick was pretty irate. Learning that your engine has a pool of gasoline on it does that to you. Someone else on the forum ran into similar circumstances when their engine was rebuilt by the dealer. His car didn't fair to well.

As Nick said, he rebuilt the RX-8 just like he would a FC. He did everything he said he was going to do. He replaced all the hoses and the parts he said he was going to replace. He just sometimes didn't replace it with the right stuff. He also had a box of left over parts. He literally mailed Nick's VFAD to him.


I don't want this to turn into a flame war and I hope the moderators are quick to stop one from forming. I even thought about posting it in the good guy/bad guy section but I figured it would be better to continue this thread. It would be great to get Brian's point of view on this as well.

This is merely a review of Brian's first rebuild of a Renesis. I am sure his next one will be much better.

BDC

I'll throw my two cents in.

I chose not to charge my normal labour rates as it was my first time to do an entirely stock Rx8 rebuild w/ the entire car as opposed to just the engine alone.

Dropped off Nov 8th and finished Dec 11th. Was started for the first time on the 12th. Picked up several days later. The job itself was considerably more difficult that I originally anticipated.

Here's the shots of the engine bay and engine upon removal and disassembly:
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...Kelly/Arrived/

Although originally we'd agreed that I could be a bit liberal with the entirety of the build, he later changed his mind and decided to stick with stock. Other than the throttle body mod I did on it (which we agreed on), it was left 100% stock.

This is a different impression than what I was given on two occasions at least initially: the day it was picked up as well as a month or two later per what he told me in AIM; something to the effect of it "running at its former glory". I'm assuming it was the first time he went and Auto-X'd it after the break-in period I had him adhere to.

During the short time I had it, it seemed to run just fine from what I could tell. I was not only surprised; I was pretty happy and proud of it. If there was a problem, I would not have told Nick to come and get it.

Evidently I'd left it off and wasn't aware I did. I can't recall exactly what happened, but if there was a vacuum line capped that wasn't originally capped then I must've done it.

I honestly have no clue whatsoever about this. What were the compression numbers? How was the test done? The only thing I can say in response is I built a 100% stock, unmodified, Renesis engine. Given that fact, and given than it's a stock car, I'm blown-away by this if the motor indeed was prematurely dying (according to Nick, by about 10,000 miles). If it's true, I'd like to know why.

Here's the job I did on it:
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...EngineAssembly

"Autozone special" makes it sound as if it's some 50 cent used hose. Whenever I replace fuel lines (along with other hoses), which is a normal thing on a car that I'm rebuilding that's seen alot of miles or is many years old, I use one of two things: high-quality, high-pressure EFI fuel hose (in Nick's case I think it was Goodyear 1/4" EFI hose) or stainless-steel braided hose.

The over-tightened clamp that tore into the fuel hose was obviously my fault. I wasn't aware of the problem as it passed the first fuel pressure leak test as well as not showing any fuel leak during the time I had it prior to it being picked up. Nick told me he smelled "raw gas" at some point and I was shocked and surprised to hear that. If I recall correctly, I told him I didn't know what it could be but if it had a fuel leak then that was a big deal and to have it checked out.

I don't know what this broken fuel rail fitting is all about. Unless I missed it in one of Nick's emails, this is new to me. If it was broken, it would've produced the leak during the first test prior to my putting the upper manifold and such on. If it was caused by the clamp and how I over-tightened it, then it's my fault.

What on earth "bad work"? Wires draped across the engine that were beginning to melt? There were no wires cut or added; a custom harness wasn't made for this car so the stock harness was used and was put exactly back in its original place. If wires truly were beginning to "melt" (which seems absurd to me), then it's got nothing to do with my work. The harness was pulled away just prior to the engine being removed and then laid back into place when the engine was back in. There's nothing more to it. It's a stock car; other than the throttle body, it has no real modifications to it. It's not as if it had a big single turbo w/ an unwrapped downpipe and un-blanketted turbine housing that's giving off loads of heat and making the engine bay super hot. There's no major components changed at all anywhere; it's stock.

Here's a link to the installation and completion photos:
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC.../Installation/

This isn't true. He and I had been in contact many times as he's on my AIM list; both for questions/issues as well as updates on the car. In fact, I think he's still on my list. If I recall correctly, that's how he told me of the 'raw gas' smell as well as when he told me about going to the Auto-X.

I don't think I did a bad job on it at all and I think those that see the photos of the actual work themselves may agree.

Besides the irate voice mail, there were three emails exchanged; two by him and one by me. Other than possibly offering something to him for his trouble of having to take it to the dealership for the fuel leak thing (which arguably I do owe him something for that), I don't have anything else to add that I didn't already say in my first email.

Virtually speaking, as far as why the engine "died" my hands are up in the air. This kind of failure is much more expected on a highly modified car where most everything in the engine bay has been changed for the purposes of doubling or tripling power but not on a 100% stock car. Everything was put back together as it came apart besides things like hose and gaskets being replaced. The car wasn't hacked up at all as can be seen by the photos. I did it entirely by the book purposefully to establish a baseline.

I didn't rebuild it "like an FC". I was charged with this but it's just not true. Here's what was literally re-done:

- Looped the coolant line bypassing the throttle body (per a test as part of the throttle body port/polish job I did)
- Replaced two fuel lines with 1/4" EFI high pressure hose
- Evidently and mistakenly left the VFAD off

Everything else is literally and truly 100% stock and unchanged. Either it was removed and re-installed or was replaced with a stock part such as the intake manifolds' orange sealing rings and the exhaust manifold gasket.

This is a fair review Chad and I appreciate the candor. I also appreciated having the job as it was challenging. Plus, Nick was a good customer. As far as the engine, I'd like to know myself what happened to it. I spent a long time on it and I think I built it pretty well. Even though I was upset to hear about a fuel leak and my having misplaced the VFAD, I was proud of the job.

B

HeavyMetal699

Real life tied me up during most of this.

A lot of the problems I didn't get to see. Some of the problems I did. I witnessed the VFAD problem and the very low power at low RPMs. While comparing our cars we both smelled the gas. It smelled like it didn't have a catallytic converter.

The rest of the problems the Gullo Mazda Tech pointed out at the time of his engine giving its last breath. I wasn't there for that.

I do believe that you would of come to some sort of amiable agreement in regards to another rebuild. But in the end Nick was pissed, without a car for a while if he somehow got the car to Dallas so he ultimately chose to sell it on the spot to the dealership who did give him a pretty good deal.

Having another RX-8 around to compare to does help a bunch. He barely had any miles on the rebuild when I tried to help him troubleshoot some of the problems. The car ran fine in the upper RPMs after it warmed up a bit. But it did bog down in the lower RPMs. It also barely started or not at all.

I know a brand new RX-8 has a Renesis that was broken in at the factory. I'm not sure when Nick took his car to autocross but it had to of been pretty soon. At the most he might of had 2,000 miles on it.

The dealership performed a compression test and I think both rotors made less than 70psi per face. I would have to get with him to get the exact numbers.


Since I'm retelling the story I of course don't have all the details. I think at this point Nick just doesn't want to argue about it anymore.

BDC

The fuel leak is admittedly unacceptable by any means. I wish I would've caught that here as I would've fixed it immediately.

The rest of the problems the Gullo Mazda Tech pointed out at the time of his engine giving its last breath. I wasn't there for that.

Understandable. And yes I would've done that. I'd like to know what happened with it and if there's something I did unbeknownst to me that may've caused it. If that's the case, I don't want a repeat. The engine build itself was fairly routine. It was the building everything around it, especially once it was in the car, that was difficult.

That's weird as it seemed alright when it was here before I released it. Then again, he would know best as he knows the car and I don't.

70psi per chamber???

Was the oil ever changed? I'm curious if anything was in the old oil.

I just don't see how in the heck that thing can lose that much if that's what the tester read. I just don't get it. It's not symptomatic of a non-turbo motor. That's more indicative of a turbo setup that's being beat to death over a period of time.