MauiMazda

I have had so many problems with the car but never with starting it.

This morning I went out 76 deg or so. Turned her over nothing. “Almost ” catching but no start up.

I wait half a minute (which has worked when I stalled out). Still nothing BUT still trying to fire. Some smoke coming out of exhaust pipe.

I come back two hours later and REALLY nothing. Absolutely ZERO attempt to fire. Feels like zero fuel getting into engine. Try a few times over the next six hours and still no attempt to fire.

I had been hanging upside down under the steering wheel trying to find the bolt for the radio to install my GROM kit when this started. Is there anything under there I could have dislodged to cause this?

I have looked over the engine and can see no loose cables or fuel lines. As I said it sounds more like an absence of fuel rather than anything else.

Very very grateful for any pointers. I am at wits end with this car. It does not feel related to the ongoing “noise” problem as the onset was so sudden and, after the two hour break, so absolutely complete.

I have searched a bit here with no success just grateful for any pointers. I left the ignition on overnight a couple of days ago and flattened the battery but it started very easily with jump leads and has started fine a couple of times since. The battery seemed OK today but just to make sure I put on jump leads and revved the other car but still no luck. I have searched and will continue to check. Just curious if anything down by the pedals could have caused this and/or if anyone has any brilliant thoughts.
TIA
Steve

PS I do now have my OBD reader and software but, as I disconnected the battery, I have lost previous data. Also I CANNOT get it to record live data. But if you can point to useful readings I shall read them.
Older possibly related thread…...https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/lack-power-stalling-pinking-noise-more-231314/#post4238926

Bladecutter

You have flooded the engine, and killed your battery, not the best combination.

Go to the autoparts store.
Buy a new battery, or have your old battery fully recharged, and tested to see if its still good. Buy a new set of ignition coils, spark plugs, and spark plug wires. I'm not even going to bother asking you when the last time those were changed, most people just have that blank look on their face when asked that question.

Remove spark plugs from rotor housings, front and rear.
Remove fuel pump fuse.

Proceed deflooding procedure.
Crank engine for 15 seconds. Let rest for 2 minutes. Repeat 4 more times.

Install new plugs, wires, and coils.
Install fuel pump fuse.
Perform 20 brake pedal stomp to reset the ESS profile in the computer. Look it up if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Start car.

Be happy.

BC.

MauiMazda2

Bladecutter thanks for the response
Well took the battery in and it was fine. The coils and plugs are about 20,000 miles old. I had a friendly garage take out the plugs about 500 miles ago they were OK but not great (have new ones ready to fit). I have been thinking about getting the coils done but was going to take her in for a compression test first.

My problem is I am not living here permanently so have almost no tools and have done NO work on a car for about 35 years.

In the past the car has stalled out a few times. I have waited a minute and it has started fine. Before I knew better I have started the engine, run it for 30 seconds and turned it off and have NOT flooded out ever.

Is there a way to check if this is a flood? Would an OBD data check tell? I am completely new to OBD information so not at all sure what I should be doing but have OBDwiz running up to a point (cannot record data in Win7).

BTW removed fuse and did procedure with plugs in and reset ESS and did the odometer reset for good measure as a Hail Mary effort –d id not expect it to work and it didn’t :-) Oh and BTW the good local mechanic is not answering his calls.

Tuesday I will admit defeat and get towed to the one and only Mazda shop here and get ripped off. Sunday will try and borrow kit but v nervous about taking out plugs as have seen some horror stories here. Just trying to be sure this is a flood problem before I go that route. It just happened so suddenly so little perplexed. In any case thanks for your ideas. Just worried will do flood procedure and it will be something else.

Have a great weekend.

Aloha Steve

PS My account seems to be blocked so had to start a new one. Are we only allowed a certain number of dumb questions for free

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

If you thik it is flooded and it is a MT...just pull start it. It won't hurt anything..and it is by far the easiest way to start it if it is flooded. When you get it going just drive it until it burns all the crap off and it should be good

New plugs would be a good idea

MauiMazda2

Well I got my courage up and got the plugs out. Thanks for the thought but it is a AT (sadly - although I do enjoy the paddles). I have flattened the battery with all the running to pump it clean. The front two plugs were very tight (I suspect the garage had the back ones off). They reqlly dont look too bad - no corrosion or anything but new plugs are worth it.

They were soaked with fuel and the fuel was alarmingly black but no real build up.

A big thank you to BladeCutter for pushing me to go there. Quiet fun now its over. Two good things the black cover was missing so need to worry about that! (maybe not so good) and those useless tie down bolts make good extension handles for pulling on the handle of your socket set when the plugs REALLY wont move!

Off now to try and take out the front seat so I can go upside down to look for the infernal audio bolt!

Thanks guys. Buying a torque wrench tomorrow which I will bequeath to the kind neighbour who lent me his tools.

Laters.

Steve

MauiMazda2

OK battery fine, deflooded, new plugs - nada. Before I buy some cheap Echlin coils (I was going to splash out on BHR but cannot wait for delivery) anyone any other thought on what might be going on. (BTW old plugs seemed fine. A little bit black but no deposits or erosion or anything.)

I am just surprised by the progress of this problem. Never a problem starting. I flatten the battery. I recharge and start about 5 times no problems at all. And then a complete no start. Will try coils but cannot help wonder if something else going on and just loath to spend $150 on kit I have decided not to use after long hard thought.

Anyway any ideas gratefully received. BTW did not fully tighten in the plugs as needed a 1/2in to 3/8 converter and bought a 3/8 to1/2in instead. But could see nothing venting around plugs... but it might just possibly be a problem. I tightened them to "firm" hand tight.

More tomorrow if I can find coils :-(

Night all
Steve

MauiMazda2

HELP PLEASE ANYONE! - does this sound like coils????

True I have been having problems but this was a v sudden change. Is there anything I could have disconnected under the steering wheel that might have caused this????

Just trying to get my head around this.... and not spend unnecessary money.

TIA Steve

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Is there an interlock on the brale pedal?...did you disconnect the switch? Usually it wont crank though if that is the problem? Dunno much about the AT's

MauiMazda2

I assume that is brake pedal but not see how that stops it firing!! But thanks for the response. I think I will probably have to try coils and if that does not work then get it towed to v expensive, one and only, local dealer. But I do need a working car

MauiMazda2

Not start car. Be very unhappy.

New coils, new plugs (new wires tomorrow), comprehensively de flooded, two batteries in parallel all connections cleaned, ESS reset done etc but so far no start. V disappointed.

Any advice on what next. As I saod i have OBDwiz but have yet to work out how to use it. V tired and off to bed. Any ideas greatfully accepted.

MauiMazda2

Little bump - anyone any ideas PLEASE. I will probably take in to the local dealer but they have had it in four or five times with the previous owner and never fixed the problem(s) properly. (I think this is a new problem).

Also - COULD I HAVE DISLODGED SOMETHING UNDER THE DASH. I was trying to find the hidden nut (never found it BTW) and this all failed aftre I was doing that. Anything under there that lets the engine turn over but not fire???

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Do you have spark?....
Do you have fuel?

It is very unlikely that your coils all decided to quit at the same time....so if something happened it is likely related to you f'ing under the dash. There are ignition related things under that area that could result in a no start. Are you sure it just isn't flooded?

Without tracing a lot of wires...check that you haven't dislodged any wire plugs.

Did you try to start it with the tranny in neutral?

Bladecutter

Well, this is the point where you need a mechanic who knows what they're doing to look at your car.

If it were my car, I would use a spark tester to see if the ignition system is in fact sparking as the engine is being cranked over. If there's no spark, you look at the potential causes for a no spark condition (fuses, wiring harness damage, etc).

If there was spark, next I would test the fuel system to make sure fuel is getting to the injectors, and that the injectors are working (don't know if you can get a screwdriver close to an injector to listen to it click, though). If there's no fuel, look at the fuses, and the fuel pump. If there is fuel, and the injectors aren't firing, test the wiring harness to see if there's a signal being sent, otherwise test the injectors.

If there's fuel and spark, then its compression test time.
Maybe before compression test time, I would check engine cranking speed, and the ESS to make sure the computer is actually getting a good signal, so it knows when to inject fuel, and when to fire the spark plugs.

But, the only thing after that point is the catalytic convertor.
If you have tools and time, remove it, and see if the car will start without it installed. If yes, then you have a plugged convertor. If no, then you're back to a compression issue.

Overall, I don't know if you have the tools on hand to perform these tests.
I know I do, but I don't live near you to help out.
Hence, you need a good mechanic.

BC.

ShinkaEvo

iTrader: (3)

Chances are, you didn't finish deflooding.
It's not how many times you do it...just have to keep doing it until car starts.
The procedure will take you at least 30min if you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

First time it took me 3 hours, cuz' i was too noob.
Second time took me 30min.

Floor the accelerations paddle (to cut the fuel) then crank for 10 second.
Let the starter cold down for 30 sec.
Repeat few times, then try to start the engine.
If it doesn't start, keep deflooding.

Obviously this will kill the battery, I had another car to keep my battery alive, fyi.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Keep in mind that if you haven't fixed the reason for the flood, deflooding may not be successful, because it just keeps reflooding. For example, completely shot coils, wires, or plugs.

Flooding is a symptom of something else not working correctly. It is not a problem that just exists by itself. Fix the underlying problem!

MauiMazda2

OK well I am up for one more deflooding. What I did was fuse out, plugs out, turn over 15 secs, wait repeat three times, reset ESS.

I did NOT floor the accelerator (is that important?).

As to underlying prob I did put in new coils and plugs but not wires yet.

So if we have an improved deflood and as I now have lots of practice I may be up for it one more time before I have to pay $85 plus tax to be towed to the**** dealer and then be out another $260.

Thanks a million for the feedback.

Steve

PS BladeCutter thanks once again for rekindling my inner mechanic after over 35 years.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Accelerator to the floor as you crank disables the fuel/spark while cranking. Pulling the fuse does the same thing, only it's a bit more "safe" in terms of your impression of if it's being done correctly.

Doing both is redundant, but feel free to do so anyway


I've flooded twice, the first time was only re-started with the fuse method (I have a rather spectacular smoke show video reflecting how badly flooded it was), the 2nd fired up with less than 2 minutes of accelerator pedal-method.

MauiMazda2

I may be being unbelievably dumb here - but did you take out the plugs? "2 mins of acc pedal" seems to suggest otherwise!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

No, I didn't remove the plugs for either deflood.

lastphaseofthis

I'm sorry, but thats not good advice. 100%pedal>fuse pulling
When you do a compression test, you hold the throttle wide open to get lots of air and higher compression readings. When deflooding it's important for the engine to get LOTS of air to help clear the fuel out also.
Theres really only two levels of unflooding hell.
1 lightly=hold the Accelerator to the floor as you crank then slowly back off the pedal to about 30-50 %(until the spark and fuel resumes) having it ~40% open allows more air then cranked with the throttle closed.
2 heavily= pull the bottom spark plugs, dissconnect the 'Crank' Sensor(disables the fuel/spark while cranking) and once again FLOOR the pedal, although i usually have the car on the lift and the key off, so i just jump the start off manually from under it. THEN about 2 oz of oil in each chamber, and then rotate the engine by hand COUNTER clockwise, to help push the oil around into the other chambers, then try to start.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

That would makes sense regarding air. Hadn't thought about that perspective of it.

MauiMazda2

First things first I forgot an extra query. As I could not work out how to get the connectors off the coils I took the bar out and the air box. Inside the concertina hose was quite a lot of oil. Is this normal? Is it OK????

OK now to deflooding - oh Lord things are getting complicated (for me anyway).

Do I need to pull the fuse as well - or more to the point does it matter? (I will pull it as well - did not realise the pedal to the floor helped - unless I hear to the contrary.

I will certainly give this a try.

Do I really need to do crank sensor - saw it on the service note? I thought resetting the ESS took care of this. Next - really, seriously, we only have to do two plugs? (I did wonder about that when I was pulling them... ah well good practice for me.)

Then, forgive the dumb question i) how do I get the oil in ii) how do I hand turn it and iii) is this really necessary. I would have thought that that much fresh oil sloshing around would have dampened things down. But I guess you are going to say with all this turning how the heck do you expect it to be lubricated and turn over??

Anyway once again thanks all for your input. I am going to put on a bit of metal that might make an earth bridge in the cockpit and who knows miracles MAY happen.

Aloha
Steve

MauiMazda2

Well could not get the sensor off so pulled the fuse. Squirted oil in leading plug holes.

And then .... drum roll..... took about 10 tries but eventually started - I could not believe it. Turned over but then stalled out after 5 min. Remembered I had the air filter off - no MAF d'oh!

Lots of rumbling when I started up and revved (I let it warm up first). Is that some sort of back fire INSIDE the CAT??? And LOTS of smoke.

Anyway CEL on but cancelled when I did the odometer reset BUT LOW COOLANT LIGHT ON. Coolant level fine posting PRESUME OK to drive.

So $64K question what caused the stall? Also should it have been SOOOO hard to start - took literally about 10-15 goes. After first couple of tries lots of almost catches before battery too tired (had it in parallel with Saturn ticking over).

Have to try and get OBDwiz working.

Thanks to all.

Steve
PS Did what I was frightened of - dropped a plug and flattened the gap. Fortunately old plugs fine so popped one of them in for the moment.

Off for a short test drive. Back great - apart from the low coolant.

Bladecutter

Congrats on getting it started!!

Don't worry about the stall.
Now, the most important thing is you take it out, and drive it.
ALOT.

Check the oil level, check the coolant level again after a day, and it being really heated up.

As for the coolant light, its a common problem with the switch in the coolant reservoir tank to go bad. You can either replace the switch/reservoir, or ignore it, and just check your coolant levels every week.

But, drive that car.
And maybe take it in for a compression test.

BC.

MauiMazda2

BC I shall take your advice and take her for a long spin. I am very hopeful that she will be smoother now with new coils. Just fingers crossed.

It was you who kicked me into getting under the wheel and taking out those plugs so you are the one I owe most of the beers to.

The pedal to the floor info was invaluable in actually starting her (I went through about 10 cycles of holding on the floor for a few seconds and then letting iy up half way) also the oil in the rotors may have been the thing as, if the seals are worn or sticky, you just don't get the compression.

Anyhoo yes to a compression test next week but today shopping, giving her a good run in third (I wish i had a manual), a little hill climbing and a lot of hoping that she keeps going.

So thanks to all of you.

Next task new coolant sensor.