View Poll Results: Have you flooded your Renesis?
YES
1,355
54.95%
NO
1,111
45.05%
Voters: 2466. You may not vote on this poll
Engine Flooding Info/Questions
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Joined: Sep 2009
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engine flooding
It seems to be an issue for all units pre-2008. Should have been a recall for faulty engineering since it is just a problem of not enough torque from the original starter, thus the flooding. Replace the starter with one that is 2008 and newer -- starting is OK.
The starter in the 2008 is the same that was installed OEM in 8s built after sometime in 2005. Only 2004s and early 2005s had the weak starter.
Flooding is only a concern if you have a weak ignition system. The problem is, your ignition system usually fails very slowly, so it is a gradual decline. The alert and responsible owner will detect the drop in mileage, the drop in power, the rougher idle, the occasional misfire, and replace their coils, plugs, and wires before it gets bad enough where there is a chance at flooding.
Every single flood I have seen reported for the past year or so ended up coming down to a failing or failed coil or spark plug or spark plug wire. But by then, they also generally have a fried cat that needs to get replaced as well, and possibly an O2 sensor or two. Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils ($160 for all 4, 20 minute swap), plugs ($80 for all 4, 10 minute swap), and wires ($50-140, depending on quality, 2 minute swap), should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare.
You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that.
Every single flood I have seen reported for the past year or so ended up coming down to a failing or failed coil or spark plug or spark plug wire. But by then, they also generally have a fried cat that needs to get replaced as well, and possibly an O2 sensor or two. Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils ($160 for all 4, 20 minute swap), plugs ($80 for all 4, 10 minute swap), and wires ($50-140, depending on quality, 2 minute swap), should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare.
You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that.
Hubble has been saved!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,221
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From: Richmond, VA
1. FWIW, 2009 and later RX-8s (Series II) still carry the owner's manual warning about not shutting down the RENESIS cold. I would assume they would not include the warning if there were not an issue. OTOH I'm not sure I have seen a post about a Series II RX-8 flooding.
2. Series I RX-8 engines built after Spring 2005 all have the "flooding" updates included (updated PCM firmware, battery, plugs and starter). Earlier cars probably have been updated under the "Engine cranks No Start" Service Bulletin. Regardless, based on info in this thread, 2008 and earlier engines with updates are still prone to flooding if shut down before the engine is warmed up although they are much less likely to flood than the early 2004/2005s. However, the service bulletin does contains a customer warning about cold shutdown continuing to potentially cause a flood. Again, FWIW.
Last edited by msrecant; Aug 2, 2010 at 08:48 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Sunny Florida
I had two flooding incidents after a long drive years ago. The cause was never officially found (I suspect the coils were the problem). The Mazda tech told be to rev the car to 3~4k the turning the key off. I do this procedure almost every time I drive the car and have never had a problem since.
^ Revving to 3k and holding for 10 seconds prior to shutdown is a good preventive measure if you have to move the vehicle cold, but unnecessary after warmup (unless you also have the low compression "starts hard when warm" issue). That sustained rev followed by a quick turn off as the motor is spooling down helps to clear out the excess cold-start fuel, which is of course the root cause of flooding.
The mid-2005 build year and on starter, plus a solid total ignition system (battery, coils, cables and 'plugs) generally obviates flooding - I've never done so. 'course a BHR ignition system provides even more reliability.
janwillem - as a noobie here we can all understand your desire to participate, but please don't spread mis-information. Strike one on your "street cred." And btw, it's not starter torque but rotational speed that's relevant in this case. All electric motors have 100% torque at rest and as long as there's sufficient battery amperage to overcome the "locked rotor" rating of the motor's winding it will achieve its purpose. The newer starter spins faster and therefore rotates the flywheel faster, better overcoming the excess fuel condition.
The mid-2005 build year and on starter, plus a solid total ignition system (battery, coils, cables and 'plugs) generally obviates flooding - I've never done so. 'course a BHR ignition system provides even more reliability.
janwillem - as a noobie here we can all understand your desire to participate, but please don't spread mis-information. Strike one on your "street cred." And btw, it's not starter torque but rotational speed that's relevant in this case. All electric motors have 100% torque at rest and as long as there's sufficient battery amperage to overcome the "locked rotor" rating of the motor's winding it will achieve its purpose. The newer starter spins faster and therefore rotates the flywheel faster, better overcoming the excess fuel condition.
Gimme that 8
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14
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I'm finally picking up my new 8 tomorrow. 2004 Touring. My question is, is there a particular part number on the starter housing that I can reference to see if it is, in fact, the stronger, newer starter?
And also, if I were to take my car to my local Mazda, would they have a way of providing me with a detailed history of every Mazda service bulletin that the car has had completed? I'm definitely not gonna let a problem like this stop me from buying this car, but I definitely don't want to have to find out the hard way how irritating the flooding problem is.
Thanks for all the insight in this thread guys and girls I'll be taking the warm-up procedures to heart to prevent this nuisance.
And also, if I were to take my car to my local Mazda, would they have a way of providing me with a detailed history of every Mazda service bulletin that the car has had completed? I'm definitely not gonna let a problem like this stop me from buying this car, but I definitely don't want to have to find out the hard way how irritating the flooding problem is.
Thanks for all the insight in this thread guys and girls I'll be taking the warm-up procedures to heart to prevent this nuisance.
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-forum-197/new-potential-owners-start-here-202454/
Flooding:
Flooding is only a concern if you have a weak ignition system. The problem is, your ignition system usually fails very slowly, so it is a gradual decline. The alert and responsible owner will detect the drop in mileage, the drop in power, the rougher idle, the occasional misfire, and replace their coils, plugs, and wires before it gets bad enough where there is a chance at flooding.
Every single flood I have seen reported for quite a while ended up coming down to one of these failing: Battery, Starter, Coil(s), Plug Wire(s), Plug(s). But by then, they also generally have a fried cat that needs to get replaced as well, and possibly an O2 sensor or two. Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils ($160 for all 4, 20 minute swap), plugs ($80 for all 4, 10 minute swap), and wires ($60, 2 minute swap), should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare.
You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that.
Flooding is only a concern if you have a weak ignition system. The problem is, your ignition system usually fails very slowly, so it is a gradual decline. The alert and responsible owner will detect the drop in mileage, the drop in power, the rougher idle, the occasional misfire, and replace their coils, plugs, and wires before it gets bad enough where there is a chance at flooding.
Every single flood I have seen reported for quite a while ended up coming down to one of these failing: Battery, Starter, Coil(s), Plug Wire(s), Plug(s). But by then, they also generally have a fried cat that needs to get replaced as well, and possibly an O2 sensor or two. Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils ($160 for all 4, 20 minute swap), plugs ($80 for all 4, 10 minute swap), and wires ($60, 2 minute swap), should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare.
You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that.
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Joined: May 2010
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I have an 04' manual and when I try to start it up it takes probably 1-2 seconds of turning and holding the key all the way, to fully Turn on. And my engine check light is on, and one day, only one day the car actually turned off while I was driving? And twice when I was stopped. And that scared me, it's around 750 rpms when stopped and sometimes sounds like it's gonna turn off. They guy at the shop said all of that is caused by me not warming my car up before I drive. Is this true? Because I let it warm up for probably 2 minutes and it still had the engine check light on.
Hubble has been saved!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,221
Likes: 0
From: Richmond, VA
First, the "flooding" issue is exacerbated by turning the engine OFF while it is still cold, not driving the car before it has warmed up. In fact, I believe there is no issue about warming the car up before you drive other than the common sense one with any car, which is to avoid thrashing it until you reach normal operating temperature. There is no problem with starting the car and then immediately starting to drive normally.
What you describe sounds more like some kind of ignition problem ... bad plugs, wires, coils or all the above. Rather than guessing, go to a shop like Pep Boys and have them read up the code causing the CEL. That will give you information about the problem.
And find someone other than "the guy at the shop" to work on your car.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2010
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It has to do with the auto choke. If you can't get it restarted, they have to run hydraulic fluid through the fuel lines to clean it out... about an hour of labor @ dealership... However, you can avoid it for quick starts before she warms up by either following procedure in manual (revving up to 3 grand for 10 sec) or by revving up by a quick press up to about 6 grand and shutting engine off before returning to idle...
A nice step up!!!
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 292
Likes: 2
From: Maine
rotor brain
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Carrollton, GA
Lesnman, don't be surprised that the problem appears to be so bad. In a forum like this the magnitude of problems tends to get magnified. Think of it like this: Would you expect someone to start a thread entitled "Hey, My Car Didn't Flood!?"
Of course not. So, if there are 1000's of participants in the forum and a few people report this, it looks like a big deal. Those who cars also flooded will jump on and say "Me too!" Those who's cars didn't flood aren't as interested in the thread, so they go to the next thread called "How to pickup chix in a '8."
For this reason, I'd say even the 8 percent currently showing in the poll is high. Everyone who had a flooded car who saw this poll will respond; they want to the world to know their woes. Of those who saw the poll without flooded cars, only some respond and other just passed it by. I wouldn't be a bit surprised in a scientific study if the number were closer to 2 percent.
This is a social phenonmenon that happens in any survey where the audience is self-selected. Those not interested in the topic don't respond, so they appear to be a smaller population than they really are.
Of course not. So, if there are 1000's of participants in the forum and a few people report this, it looks like a big deal. Those who cars also flooded will jump on and say "Me too!" Those who's cars didn't flood aren't as interested in the thread, so they go to the next thread called "How to pickup chix in a '8."
For this reason, I'd say even the 8 percent currently showing in the poll is high. Everyone who had a flooded car who saw this poll will respond; they want to the world to know their woes. Of those who saw the poll without flooded cars, only some respond and other just passed it by. I wouldn't be a bit surprised in a scientific study if the number were closer to 2 percent.
This is a social phenonmenon that happens in any survey where the audience is self-selected. Those not interested in the topic don't respond, so they appear to be a smaller population than they really are.
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Joined: Oct 2010
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really hoping that mine flooded cuz i belive thats an easy fix but.......ill take some opinions please..here is my story,,,,we had a cold front come in temp went from about 50 degrees then the next day it was about 35, I went out to move my rx8 so someone could get in my driveway, it started fine and i shut it right off after the 15 foot move, which i have bin reading is a no no. about an hour later i went to get in it again and it fired right up normally then killed right away ever since that cant get it started? any ideas hoping its an easy fix!!
R James
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: Sydney Australia
really hoping that mine flooded cuz i belive thats an easy fix but.......ill take some opinions please..here is my story,,,,we had a cold front come in temp went from about 50 degrees then the next day it was about 35, I went out to move my rx8 so someone could get in my driveway, it started fine and i shut it right off after the 15 foot move, which i have bin reading is a no no. about an hour later i went to get in it again and it fired right up normally then killed right away ever since that cant get it started? any ideas hoping its an easy fix!!
You've done exactly the wrong thing with the car. A short start then turned it off. To make matters worse, you did the same thing again. Therefore, it's had a double dose of fuel rich mixture. This petrol has remained in the cylinders and dissolved and removed the oil around the seals. After a short start, rev to at least 6,000 rpm for 10 seconds, and get it up to a reasonable temperature (though I find just the revs seems enough)
There are many ways described here previously to get it going, so read back. A tow start is probably a good option if possible. Otherwise, pull the fuse on the petrol pump, get a jump lead connected to another running car so you have plenty of power, and do lots of starter motor turnovers - you might even see smoke coming off the starter motor. Then pop the fuse back in and try again. I've spent an hour doing this before it started with lots of smoke. Good luck.
Yup, here you go: Deflooding
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11
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From: St. Louis, MO
I voted "YES", although technically I didn't flood it, a friend did. I've owned a 2004 RX-8 (MT) for 2.5 years now, and it hadn't been flooded once... then one day I lend it to a friend, it gets flooded. SOOOOOOOO, I felt compelled to add my input here.
I was only annoyed for about 60 seconds. Many people visit these boards and complain about the RENESIS engine, and its faults (mainly flooding). Do these same people also reprimand a dog who leaves a mess inside the house, knowing darn well that he didn't let the dog outside to use the restroom for an extended period of time? It's not the dog's fault, he HAS to use the restroom. Getting mad is an exercise in futility, and reprimanding the dog is actually counter-productive.
A flooded RX-8 is like a dog who left a mess inside the house. Obviously it wasn't Plan A, it's something he did when the owner doesn't provide it with the TLC it needed.
And BTW, to clear my flooded engine, I used the windshield washer fluid *trick*. My buddy and I had the car running in an hour... and it only took THAT long because it was our first time doing it. Luckily, it'll never happen again (unless another newbie borrows it!)
I was only annoyed for about 60 seconds. Many people visit these boards and complain about the RENESIS engine, and its faults (mainly flooding). Do these same people also reprimand a dog who leaves a mess inside the house, knowing darn well that he didn't let the dog outside to use the restroom for an extended period of time? It's not the dog's fault, he HAS to use the restroom. Getting mad is an exercise in futility, and reprimanding the dog is actually counter-productive.
A flooded RX-8 is like a dog who left a mess inside the house. Obviously it wasn't Plan A, it's something he did when the owner doesn't provide it with the TLC it needed.
And BTW, to clear my flooded engine, I used the windshield washer fluid *trick*. My buddy and I had the car running in an hour... and it only took THAT long because it was our first time doing it. Luckily, it'll never happen again (unless another newbie borrows it!)
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Joined: Jan 2011
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I am gettign ready to buy my first 8 this weekend, its a used 04 with 63k on it. I talked to the guy and he said its flooded on him 2 times in the past 3 years he has had the car. He said he replaced the plugs and wires on it.
He says it starts up fine and runs strong, I will know more once I drive up and check out the car.
He said his dad flooded it by pulling it out the garage and shutting it off. He seems pretty knowledgeable of 8's, I kinda drilled him on the major concerns like cold starts and what kind of oil he uses so I think he knows how to take care of the car.
My question is do you all think that 2 times flooded, would this ruin the apex seals?
Is there a way for me to "hear" if the car is low on compression?
Thanks
He says it starts up fine and runs strong, I will know more once I drive up and check out the car.
He said his dad flooded it by pulling it out the garage and shutting it off. He seems pretty knowledgeable of 8's, I kinda drilled him on the major concerns like cold starts and what kind of oil he uses so I think he knows how to take care of the car.
My question is do you all think that 2 times flooded, would this ruin the apex seals?
Is there a way for me to "hear" if the car is low on compression?
Thanks
Registered
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 203
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From: Sunny Florida
Flooding doesn't damage the apex seals. The renesis sprays a very large amount of gas when starting. The extra gas soaks the combustion chamber, add that to the injectors pumping gas while the car warms up and you have a condition that could lead to wet plugs. Once the car is warmed up the extra gas has burned off and all should be well. I've had my 8 since 10/2003. I've flooded it twice, both times after long highway drives. The tech's told me to rev the car to 3~4k and shut off the ignition while the engine was still spinning. The idea was to allow the extra gas to get blown out. I do this every time I shut of the car and I haven't had an issue since. My car is at 85K now and still runs great.
I do add 4~8 oz of 2 stroke oil at fill ups, and rev the car up to 9k at least once every time I take out it. I love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time.
I do add 4~8 oz of 2 stroke oil at fill ups, and rev the car up to 9k at least once every time I take out it. I love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time.
R James
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: Sydney Australia
Flooding doesn't damage the apex seals. The renesis sprays a very large amount of gas when starting. The extra gas soaks the combustion chamber, add that to the injectors pumping gas while the car warms up and you have a condition that could lead to wet plugs. Once the car is warmed up the extra gas has burned off and all should be well. I've had my 8 since 10/2003. I've flooded it twice, both times after long highway drives. The tech's told me to rev the car to 3~4k and shut off the ignition while the engine was still spinning. The idea was to allow the extra gas to get blown out. I do this every time I shut of the car and I haven't had an issue since. My car is at 85K now and still runs great.
I do add 4~8 oz of 2 stroke oil at fill ups, and rev the car up to 9k at least once every time I take out it. I love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time.
I do add 4~8 oz of 2 stroke oil at fill ups, and rev the car up to 9k at least once every time I take out it. I love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time.
I've never heard of adding 2 stroke oil - why?
