sniper

I would hope so but that type of problem has me leaning towards the G35 more.

8 years as a B4 in the Army qualifies me to use it! lol.

Artifex

Maniac pointed out that he scoped it and found the injectors sit at 0% duty cycle. This proves there is some cold start/ flooding code. I never said there wasn't, I just wasn't sure since I dont have source code, I even said it makes sense that there should me.

The misinformation I talked about it the guy that posted first said the fuel pump is cut. Maniac and you both agree with me that this is wrong.

It was common practice to pull the plugs to evacuate. It takes much less effort than a rolling start or lots of cranking. This is even a good way to get a motor with a blown water jacket to light one last time to get you home.

The reason you pull the ignitors on the 1st gens is if you have to pull the plugs to evacuate you have have to kill ignition. The reason I KNOW is I had (RIP ) a 85 gsl-se, even though it always had strong compression (90-90-85), it would flood really bad because my 680cc secondaries were leaky. The gsl-se did have full throttle code in the ecu, as I recall the shop manual said this can also be activated by derpessed the fast idle dashpot on the TB(impossible for one person to do though).

The reason I know that my T2 also had full throttle code (as well as all 2nd and 3rd gens ) is I have the code dumps from the ecus ( I think I only saved 1 or 2 asm revisions -hmm long time ago) .

Anyway my point is I don't want to get into an arguement, just that folks had said the fuel pump is cut and this isnt true. I'm actually dissapointed that mazda hasn't figured out a solution for this after 25 years of this exact problem. Since the only cars I've ever owned were rx-7s its a way of life for me but I sure wish it wasn't.

skagen

Hey RotaryGod, pushing the pedal to the floor while you start it...should we hold the pedal there for a couple of seconds, like the procedure in the manual? And then holding the pedal for a couple of secs, after it starts, so let the car redline for a couple of secs from a cold start? Not criticizing, just trying to get the details of this system so I can do it everytime i start up without flooding.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

NO!

Once the motor starts, let go of the throttle immediately.
No need to redline the motor before the oil starts to flow and everything is up to temperature!

Habeeb

It would help if Mazda had designed a starter that would spin this thing over at 500 plus rpm. 250 rpm isn't fast enough, especially in weak battery, cold tempreature situations. I'm a little surprised that with all the refinements to the engine, that they let the flooding and oil pan issues into production. Down the road, leaky injector issues will effect hot start situations as well. Again, a starter with some real cranking power would greatly help that situation. Almost any rotary will start if you push it off, like the other posters here have commented on. Subsitute a faster cranking speed and many present and future problems will disappear.

CERAMICSEAL

I concur Habeeb. Happy Newyear also by the way sir.
p.s. Camels seem to do well with a kickstart.

rotarygod

I've been saying that for a long time and you agree with HIM!!! Damn!

Lock & Load

I NEVER start the car with pumping/ pushing the pedal , thats why you guys are flooding your engines , leave the pedal alone .
My starting procedure is to simple switch on the ignition i do not depress the pedal my car stars on time everytime , no problems .

Australian cars are not flooding as much as u guys , mostly because we dont pump the gas pedal before we start our cars.

michael

M-ster

deleted

skagen

I don't think anyone is pumping the gas. In the manual is says to depress the gas pedal and HOLD it down. I think that's the suggestion RotaryGod was giving for when starting. I understand your argument as well though, if you start going crazy on the gas pedal with a pump action then I can see how a flood can occur there as well.

Lock & Load

Skagen .

Is it possible that the manual is wrongly printed?, even by depressing the gas pedal and holding it down in my opinion you are getting too much petrol into the chamber AND CAUSING IT TO FLOOD EASIER .

I never use that method my car has never came even close to flooding.

Can you point out the page number in the manual for me , and i will check our Australian manual to see if the information corres
ponds.

thanks

michael

M-ster

The thread is going further and futher away from the facts.

Like what neit_jnf had said, the start up and floor the gas method is for a flooded engine and NOT to avoid flooding the engine. Basically, when you floor the gas pedal, it will cut off the gas pump from injecting fuel into the engine thus avoid futher flooding the already flooded engine.

So rotarygod's advise to skagen was to let go of the padel once if the engine comes to live from a flood.

And skagen has a miss-conception which I use to have, you are NOT suppose to use this method on the day to day start up thinking that it will prevent flooding the engine.

skagen

In the North American manual its page 7-20. I didn't think that starting up using that procedure would be a good idea, but RotaryGod suggested, or maybe I just read it wrong, that starting up like that you would less likely get a flooded engine. Lock & Load my thoughts were definitely similar to yours. When I first read the procedures in my manual for the starting a flooded engine, I was like uhhhhhh....wouldn't I just be pushing more gas by pressing and holding down on the accelerator, but some on this board have posted that when you hold it down for 10 seconds or so it shuts off the fuel pump. Ironic isn't it, pushing down on the gas pedal to prevent more fuel lol.

Go4It

I am a new owner who hasn't turned the key yet. I thank all of you for the lesson....

rx8cited

hello rotarygod,

Please clarify some confusion on the above post. Are you recommending we push the pedal down as described in your above post every time we start our cars - even if the engine is not flooded ?

If you answer yes, then should we push and hold the pedal down before turning the key or while turning the key?

Am I correct to assume that if we have the pedal down before the key is turned, then no fuel will get pumped into the combustion chamber at all, however if we push it down during or after turning the key, some fuel will get pumped into the chamber, possibly contributing to flooding?

Thanks and Happy New Year,
rx8cited

rx8cited

hi Go4It ,

Congrats ...... what are you waiting for?

Happy New Year,
rx8cited

Go4It

Cars paid for but still at the dealer. I had the spare tire kit removed and the app. pack, accent and 6-disc installed. Should be ready tomorrow or Sat.. I'll be a drivin fool as soon as its ready.......I haven't had a toy since I got rid of my '82 Vette, that was years ago..

rotarygod

OK somehow this got confusing. Some people do disagree with me though and that is cool. With the gas pedal pushed all the way to the floor (engine off obviously) the ecu stops fuel flow into the engine so the engine is cranking over with no fuel what so ever entering it other than what may or may not be there. The manual says that to unflood the car you should push the pedal all the way down and crank for 10 seconds. Then to crank the car again without the pedal pushed all the way down. The first crank gives the engine time to hopefully expel all of the fuel in the engine without allowing any more to enter and make matters worse. Since we have the inherent problem that Mazda fires the engine at idle and startup with the trailing plugs first which don't have near the spark intensity, we need to make sure that we can get a clean spark going first before we hit it with fuel. The RX-8 also does not have wasted spark which fires the leading plugs twice as often. The RX-8 ecu does the same thing that every RX-7 has done since 1989 in regards to fuel cutoff with the throttle floored. When you want to start the car, before you turn the key, as in the manual unflood procedure, press the gas pedal all the way to the floor and hold it there. Now crank the engine with the throttle still floored. No fuel is entering the engine at this time. This gives the starter the chance to get the engine up to full cranking speed (which only takes a fraction of a second but every bit helps), expels any left over fuel, and fires the plugs a couple times to clear off any deposits. You only need to hold your foot down for a couple of seconds and then take your foot off the gas while still cranking the engine. It should start right up but no absolute guarantee. This is more reliable than just getting in and turning the key though. It sounds like a long drawnout process that takes a long time but we are only talking about a couple of seconds. Just get in, floor it, crank it, take your foot off and go. It could have all been done in the time it took to read that sentence. The key is that the pedal gets pressed before the key gets turned to ignition so no fuel is sprayed into the engine for that quick moment it takes to get the pedal all the way down. Just make it a habit when you get in the car. Left foot holds in the clutch (if you have one) and the right foot holds down the gas. That is the simplest way to do it. The manual may say that the pedal should be held down only in the even of flooding but by then it is too late so what is the point? Mazda also suggests that you use only the same brand fluids and brake pads on the car that it came with and also only use Mazda certified mechanics on the car. I know everyone does this. You get the point. It is in the book just in case it happens. It is easier to tell people what to do after the fact if it even happens at all then it is to tell them a new procedure than they are used to should be used.

There are many remedies Mazda can do. Fire the leading plugs first at startup with wasted spark mode, delay the onset of fuel injection at startup by a measly second, and spin the engine over faster with a better starter. That sounds simple to me but still much more compliated then just getting in the car and flooring it. That is the most realistic way to deal with it.

Adamra

I wanted to make a couple of notes:

1.) I knew the procedure was in the manual, and I tried it 7-10 times with no luck.. To the letter, hold the gas down for 10 seconds while cranking, then try it w/o.. No joy.

2.) I pulled the fuse mainly so the engine would burn any fuel that remained in the chambers. I wasn't aware of whether the pumps or injectors were still injecting gass or not, so I made sure they couldn't.. At least as sure as I thought I could be.

3.) The dealership agreed to replace my oil, filter, and plugs under warranty. So if it's needed or not, I'm going to do it. That, and I'm interested in seeing how the plugs look. I've heard some say that the initial burn-off in these engines really puts out a bunch of residuals, especially on the plugs.

Also, does anyone have any official tech documents on the workings of the car, such as the gas pedal injectors question? Just curious.

-Adamra

rotarygod

Since the trailing plugs fire first at startup, if they are even slightly dirty you will have issues with starting even if the engine is no longer flooded. I'd definitely like to see what the plugs look like. They can usually be cleaned instead of replaced.

The people who have been working with aftermarket ecu electronics have verified that the ecu does run the fuel pump but the injector duty cycle is at zero with the pedal pushed all the way down. This verifies what Mazda claims in regards to the unflooding procedure. Mazda has not directly stated how it works only that it is there. Others here have figured it out. It is these people who will make solving many of the inherent problems of this car much easier and it is wonderful that they post their findings here.

MEGAREDS

A number of people have mentioned that the car has trouble recovering from a flood around freezing when the air is moist. That was my situation exactly.

Also, another person posted that there is a hotter plug available for the leading side, RE6A-L. This is "available only for customers who often drive their car at very low speed which causes the plugs to foul easily." See these two posts:

New plugs for the flooding issue
Spark plug fouling remedy

I'm very confused if this is something I want or not... My car should be deflooded by the dealer tomorrow. I think I'll let them decide.

1 bad 7

I've had a 1993 RX-7 for almost four years now, and never had a problem with flooding...until I blew the motor and made quite a few changes.

I've seriously been considering the RX-8 as a replacement since my 7 hasn't run correctly for about 18 months now, but to be honest this flooding issue is really turning me away. If I'm going to pay `$30k for a car, it sure as hell better be able to handle daily, short trips to work, the store, etc. I live two minutes from work and most of the stores I go to, and have no desire to drive around needlessly on busy roads just to avoid flooding my car. Needless driving should be for having fun, not out of necessity!

My biggest concern are the posts from people who stalled the car just backing out of the garage and couldn't get it restarted. That's just plain ridiculous. I really thought Mazda would have addressed such issues...if they want a rotary car to appeal to a mass market, they can't have a problem as stupid as this!

I hopped over here after reading numerous complaints about flooding on Edmunds.com, thinking maybe it was an isolated group of posters who had problems.

I'm really disappointed, because I absolutely LOVE the way the 8 looks, and I'm sure it handles great, etc, but I've had enough headaches with my 7. I'm tired of wondering if I'll make it home or down the driveway!

I used to be a huge fan of the rotary, but I'm really beginning to doubt whether it's advantages (size, weight, power output, etc) are really worth all it's quirks - I just don't see today's mainstsream consumers wanting to deal with it

msrecant

Several quick comments:

- I agree, it is a sad thing that a the rotary has too many quirks for mainstream use.

- You need to remember that the flooding issue only effects a small percentage of cars. Hence your risk is pretty small.

- While it is popularly believed that flooding is associated with driver behavior, this has not been proven statistically either way. Some anichdotal evidence on this forum indicates otherwise.

- The RX-8 is a great car and, from what you say, I think you would love owning one.

- Shop for a really good deal or buy a used 8. That way if it turns out to be a problem (highly unlikely) you can sell the car with little-to-no financial loss.

Like you, if I were buying an 8 right now I would have second thoughts. However, since I already own an 8, I can say that my car has never had ANY problems, never flooded and has been a dream to drive.

graphicguy

1 bad....on the other hand, it sounds like the car isn't for you. The RENESIS' is different than a piston engine. It takes a little (very little) different procedure in its care/feeding...not better or worse, just different.

If you aren't willing to take the time to familiarize yourself with the RENESIS, then you won't be happy. If you do put out a little effort, you will be rewarded with one of the best sports car driving experiences on the planet.

It sounds like you've already made up your mind, though.

1 bad 7

I guess more than anything it's disappointing to hear of the flooding problems, even if they are limited occurrences overall. That's a problem I had with my 1988 RX-7 GXL, and not with my 3rd gen, so it's difficult to comprehend how something like that is rearing it's head again on an engine that has received so many accolades. If I purchase an 8, it's going to be my daily driver, and I don't expect to have to worry about something like flooding on a 2004 car model.

I'll admit I had/have very high expectations for the RENESIS engine...mainly, reliability and longevity after having to replace the motor on my 3rd gen at only ~60k miles

Believe me, I know the rotary is unlike a piston engine - I've defended and touted the rotary to my friends and family numerous times...even though they all think I'm crazy. I love the sheer simplicity of the core design, but we're almost 20 years past that 2nd gen RX-7 and by now it would seem reasonable to expect the "quirks" of the rotary to be ironed out

Maybe I'm not explaining it right - I think I'm kind of rambling, actually - it is still tempting to get an 8, but these early *isolated* flooding issues concern me. The oil light, restated HP numbers, etc don't bother me; with a brand new model I expect that. I DON'T expect to have to worry about needing to tow my brand new car, though!

(and no, I haven't test driven one yet - hopefully today!)

Sorry for the "book...."