1wickedR3

1)The only oil ever made specifically for the rotary was an ethanol based full synthetic
2)Mazda will not recommend fully synthetic ONLY BECAUSE they cannot recommend it for the break in period of the motor too.
3)If you check out Royal Purple's web site they have an entire FAQ section donated to the rotary.

Bottom Line: break your motor in with regular 5W/20 then switch to Royal Purple. if ya dont believe me check out their web site. Email them. They will leave no doubt in your mind that Royal Purple will be perfectly safe for your rotary no matter what car it is in...RX7/RX8/RX3?even a freakin Cosmo. Your motor will thank you for the change. It is the only motor oil Racing Beat recommends. It is the only oil they have ever used that actually INCREASES HORSEPOWER.
I use Royal Purple in my 09' R3 and 04' Mazdaspeed Miata. They both run better. Noticably better. Period. The biggest difference in my R3 is that it runs night and day smoother above 8000 rpm. also starts alot better in cold weather.

Jeffers

nice plug mate - show us the facts...

speedracer2169

here is the link
Royal Purple FAQ | Synthetic Motor Oil Questions Answered

speedracer2169

Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results — including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz (who has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars using synthetic motor oils since 1985 with excellent results) has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.

In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.

Here are some facts:

The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for 10+ years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.

speedracer2169

No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and will not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).

speedracer2169

In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four-cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four-cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard HP 2-C if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two-cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending upon which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.

For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our XPR 2-Cycle XPR 2-C or the standard HP 2-C.

A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).

1wickedR3

Thank you speedracer. I can disassemble a 20b blindfolded and put it back together drunk. But I am computer stupid. Thanks for the links and quotes!

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Well we can close the 100+ page thread on the subject now. They have a FAQ!

monchie

Royal Purple is expensive than other conventional and synthetic oil but its worth it.

xexok

Everything I have seen on here says synthetics are fine, but there is also the other side of that coin where people say it is not. I change my oil every 3k miles so I would be a complete idiot to use synthetics. At the 3k mark the oil is filthy.

A company that is selling you oil might be a little bit biased about the product they are selling you. If I were them I would also leave no doubt in your mind that you should be buying my product, it is literally their job.

aaronspeed

The only thing your missing is if Royal Purple recommends the product and all of sudden rotary engines start showing problems that are related to the lubrication of the engine they will have law suits and will lose. Quaker State Oil is a good example of what can happen when your product causes millions of dollars in damage to a product that the product was to protect. When the question always comes up about oil the Mazda response has always been that the cost of a synthetic product the operating cost of a oil that the motor is to burn is to high . When I see people talking about the oil for a rotary I think the biggest concern is why nobody blows the oil lines out during a oil change to change all the oil in the system not just the 4 quarts in the pan. Your always mixing fresh oil with 4+ quarts of dirty during every oil change.

Slidin8

You should use SlideSpeed engine oils because I said it's the best for rotarys and all other oils are ****

xexok

I thought the oil left in the system was in the oil coolers? Either way you can get almost 5 quarts out by jack up each side of the car and also dropping it and letting it drain flat. Its a pain to do so I usually just drain out the 4+ quarts I can get with the front end in the air and call it a day.

ken-x8

If Royal Purple is sure that their oil is OK, will they stand behind anyone who uses it and is denied warranty repairs?

Ken

User24

iTrader: (1)

Would you rather change oil at 1000 mile intervals on basic GTX, or 3000 miles on RP?

I know which one I'd rather do.

xexok

Who told you to change the oil every 1k miles?

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

Here is a fact. Royal Purple sucks. All of the RP UOA's i have run have lost their viscosity

Posted From RX8Club.com Android App

Myardor

iTrader: (7)

I rather change every 10K to 15K miles using WallysWorld Synthetic 20-50 oil. Ouch, they quit carrying it.

Going on 47k miles on my 06 shinka

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

uoa are the FACTS and like Paul said RP's uoa are not impressive. I agree that synthetic oil is the way to go.
Now lets not gum up the works with a large number of posts like the 1000's of others?

Myardor

iTrader: (7)

Stop Changing Your Oil - Edmunds.com

Breaking the 3,000-Mile Habit

Published: 08/24/2010 - by Philip Reed, Senior Consumer Advice Editor Ronald Montoya, Consumer Advice Editor


Dipstick

Oil technology has changed enormously over the last 30 years making the 3,000-mile oil change unnecessary in nearly all vehicles. | August 26, 2010 |

VIDEO: Motor Oil — Understanding the Numbers
Stop Changing Your Oil - Edmunds.com

VIDEO: Motor Oil — Debunking Common Myths
Stop Changing Your Oil - Edmunds.com

VIDEO: Motor Oil — Conventional vs. Synthetic
Stop Changing Your Oil - Edmunds.com

Oil chemistry and engine technology have evolved tremendously in recent years, but you'd never know it from the quick-change behavior of American car owners. Driven by an outdated 3,000-mile oil change commandment, they are unnecessarily spending millions of dollars and spilling an ocean of contaminated waste oil.

Although the average car's oil change interval is around 7,800 miles — and as high as 20,000 miles in some cars — this wasteful cycle continues largely because the automotive service industry, while fully aware of the technological advances, continues to preach the 3,000-mile gospel as a way to keep the service bays busy. As a result, even the most cautious owners are dumping their engine oil twice as often as their service manuals recommend.

After interviews with oil experts, mechanics and automakers, one thing is clear: The 3,000-mile oil change is a myth that should be laid to rest. Failing to heed the service interval in your owner's manual wastes oil and money, while compounding the environmental impact of illicit waste-oil dumping.

Scared Into Needless Service
Part of the blame for this over-servicing lies in our insecurities about increasingly complicated engines that are all but inaccessible to the average driver. Pop open the hood of a modern car, and a mass of plastic covers wall off the engine. On some vehicles, the only thing an owner can easily access is the oil cap.

"Vehicles are so sophisticated that oil is one of the last things that customers can have a direct influence over," said Matt Snider, project engineer in GM's Fuels and Lubricants Group. "There's maybe some feeling that they're taking care of their vehicle if they change their oil more often."

The 3,000-mile myth is also promoted by the quick lube industry's "convenient reminder" windshield sticker. It is a surprisingly effective tool that prompts us to continue following a dictate that our fathers (or grandfathers) drummed into our heads: It's your duty to change your oil every 3,000 miles — or your car will pay the price. But as former service advisor David Langness put it, the 3,000-mile oil change is "a marketing tactic that dealers use to get you into the service bay on a regular basis. Unless you go to the drag strip on weekends, you don't need it."

Because busy car owners seldom read their owner's manuals, most have no idea of the actual oil change interval for their cars. And so they blindly follow the windshield reminder sticker, whether it's an accurate indicator of the need for an oil change or not. "I just go by the sticker in the windshield," one well-to-do, educated Denver Lexus owner said. "Otherwise, how would I know when to change it?"

A career Navy mechanic who bought an Edmunds.com long-term car just shrugged when he was told that the vehicle had safely gone 13,000 miles between oil changes. "I'll just keep changing the oil every 5,000 miles," he said. "It's worked well for me in the past."

Our oil change addiction also comes from the erroneous argument that nearly all cars should be serviced under the "severe" schedule found in the owner's manual. In fact, a quiz on the Web site maintained by Jiffy Lube International Inc. (owned by petrochemical giant Shell Oil Company) recommends the severe maintenance schedule for virtually every kind of driving pattern.

The argument that most people drive under severe conditions is losing its footing, however. A number of automakers, including Ford and GM, have contacted Edmunds data editors to request that the maintenance section of Edmunds' site substitute the normal maintenance schedule for the severe schedule that had been displayed.

About the only ones that really need a 3,000-mile oil change are the quick-lube outlets and dealership service departments. In their internal industry communications, they're frank about how oil changes bring in customers. "Many people...know when to have their oil changed but don't pay that much attention to it," said an article in the National Oil and Lube News online newsletter. "Take advantage of that by using a window sticker system [and] customers will be making their way back to you in a few short months."

Another National Oil and Lube News article tied the frequency of oil changes to success in pushing related products and services. For a midsize SUV, the stepped-up oil change intervals will bring in $1,800 over the life of the car, the article says. "A few extra services [or oil changes] can go a long way toward increasing the amount of money a customer will spend during the lifespan we estimated here," the article concludes.

Today's Oil Goes the Distance
While the car-servicing industry is clear about its reasons for believing in the 3,000-mile oil change, customers cling to it only because they're largely unaware of advances in automotive technology. Among 2010 models, the average recommended oil change interval, based on a normal service schedule, is about 7,800 miles — more than double the traditional 3,000-mile interval. The longest oil change interval is 20,000 miles, for all Porsches. The shortest oil change interval is 5,000 miles in some late-model Toyotas, but the carmaker has begun shifting its fleet to 10,000-mile oil change intervals using synthetic oil.

"Oil has changed quite a bit and most of that isn't transparent to the average consuming public," said Robert Sutherland, principal scientist at Pennzoil Passenger Car Engine Lubricants. Synthetic oils, such as the popular Mobil 1, are stretching oil change intervals, leaving the 3,000-mile mark in the dust. "The great majority of new vehicles today have a recommended oil change interval greater than 3,000 miles," said Mobil spokeswoman Kristen A. Hellmer. The company's most advanced synthetic product (Mobil 1 Extended Performance) is guaranteed for 15,000 miles.

Today's longer oil change intervals are due to:

Improved "robustness" of today's oils, with their ability to protect engines from wear and heat and still deliver good fuel economy with low emissions
Tighter tolerances (the gap between metal moving parts) of modern engines
The introduction of oil life monitoring systems, which notify the driver when an oil change is required and are based on the way the car is driven and the conditions it encounters

For 2010 vehicles, 14 of 35 carmakers are now using oil life monitoring systems. One GM car driven by Edmunds went 13,000 miles before the monitoring system indicated the need for an oil change. We sent a sample of that oil to a lab for analysis. The results showed the oil could have safely delivered at least another 2,000 miles of service.

Oil experts and car manufacturers are solidly on the side of the less-frequent oil changes that these formulation changes make possible. "If customers always just stayed with the 3,000-mile recommendation, there'd be these great strides in the robustness of oil that oil companies have made [that] wouldn't be utilized," said GM's Matt Snider. Consumers, he said, would be "throwing away good oil."

Chris Risdon, a product education specialist for Toyota agreed, adding that oil technology advances that permit fewer changes are a tool to protect the environment. "If you're doing it half as much, that's 5 quarts of oil times 1.7 million vehicles a year — that's a tremendous amount of waste oil that's not being circulated into the environment."

Waste oil is a problem exacerbated by too-frequent oil changes, according to the California Integrated Waste Management Board, which has campaigned against the 3,000-mile dictate. The agency says that 153.5 million gallons of used oil is generated in California annually, but only 59 percent of it is recycled.

Our Fit Gets Taken for a Ride
To see what might happen to the average car owner, we took a 2007 Honda Fit to Jiffy Lube for an oil change. The car has an oil life monitoring system, and the system has recommended the past two oil change intervals at 5,500 miles and 7,600 miles on non-synthetic oil. In both cases, an engine oil analysis revealed that the oil could have provided at least another 2,000 miles of service.

On this occasion, we told the Jiffy Lube service advisor we were considering synthetic Mobil 1 because we heard it could extend our oil change intervals. The service advisor said the synthetic oil could enable the Fit to go 4,000 or 5,000 miles before the oil "burned out." The Mobil 1 oil change had a price tag of $92.39. The technician also took the opportunity to upsell us, recommending a cabin air filter for $49.99. The total for our visit, after a $15 coupon, was $132.72.

When the car was returned to us, the sticker in the window called for an oil change in 3,000 miles, not the 4,000 or 5,000 miles the service advisor had promised.

If we were foolish enough to follow Jiffy Lube's 3,000-mile change schedule (which is essentially the advice given by all quick oil change outlets and dealership service departments), the Fit would undergo four unnecessary oil changes per year (assuming 15,000 miles per year of driving), wasting $369 and 15.2 quarts of perfectly good oil. Over five years of the car's life and 60,000 miles of driving, this would amount to $1,847 and 125 quarts of wasted oil. This does not include other "upselling" items at each visit, such as cabin air filters.

Defending the 3,000-Mile Interval
The quick oil change industry justifies its perpetuation of the 3,000-mile standard by saying that most people drive under "severe" conditions. Jiffy Lube's quiz, mentioned earlier in this article, is one example of how that notion is reinforced in drivers' minds. An oil change company representative said the 3,000-mile recommendation is meant to be just that — a recommendation.

Scott Cudini, innovations manager for Jiffy Lube, repeatedly called the 3,000-mile interval a good "fallback position," meant to be a guideline but not a hard-and-fast rule. He added that Jiffy Lube technicians would initiate a "dialogue" with customers about the oil change intervals that apply specifically to their cars.

"In most cases," Cudini said, "even if customers' cars have been plastered with that 3,000-mile sticker, they may have been told by the service advisor that, 'By the way, Sir/Madam, your interval is 5,500 miles.'" Based on our experience at Jiffy Lube and other quick-change outlets, technicians rarely initiate dialogues that could provide accurate information about oil change intervals. In fact, according to a Jiffy Lube spokesperson, the system for supplying technicians with answers only gives them information from a vehicle's severe schedule.

The quick-change industry's deep fallback argument in favor of frequent oil changes is that they are a hedge against trouble. You can't hurt your engine by changing your oil too often, so doesn't that imply that it might actually help it? Well, no.

Steve Mazor, manager of American Automobile Association's Research Center, said that more-frequent-than-necessary oil changes will not "gain any additional life for your engine or any improved fuel economy." He added, "In reality it will make little or no difference to the performance of the vehicle."

The Right Time To Change Your Oil
So where does this leave the car owner who was raised on the perceived wisdom of the 3,000-mile oil change? For a full discussion, your next stop should be our related article, "When Should You Change Your Oil?," which will save you hundreds of dollars over the next few years and fully protect your car and its warranty, while limiting the use of a natural resource.

The short answer, meanwhile, is to consult your service manual or Edmunds' maintenance section to learn your car's actual oil change schedule. If your car has an oil life monitoring system, don't try to second-guess it. Understand how it works and follow its guidelines. To probe more deeply into this subject, consider sending a sample of the oil from your next oil change to a lab such as Blackstone Laboratories, for an inexpensive analysis. Our last suggestion? Rip that sticker off your windshield.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Unless you tell the dealer that your using syn oil, they aren't going to know the difference. They don't run test on the oil before hand to know what you have in there. The only thing they are concerned with is the oil level.

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

So how many piston engined vehicles on the road inject crankcase oil into the intake? Hint: zero.

About 1/3 of the oil remains after an oil change. After your second 10k mile change, 1/3 of your oil will have more than 20k miles on it. All that time, the black **** suspended in the oil is being injected into the rotor housing, coming out of suspension when the oil is burned and coating the inside with carbon.

Plus these engines stress the oil in two ways not common to pistion engines: 1) With enough cooling to run hard on hot days, the oil can be too cold resulting in water condensation. Search "milky oil" or "milky dipstick". There is also a Mazda TSB on the issure. 2) Because EGTs in our engines can be very high, extra fuel is injected when a high load/rpm to protect the cat. This will fuel-dilute the oil much faster than any non-worn pistion engine.

Additionally, multiple people here have tracked a significant viscosity degradation in Royal Purple that is not present when analyzing most other oils. Run 5w-5 weight oil in your engine and you will get more hp ... for a while.

So now we have a newly-hatched fan boi expert, writing stuff in great volume that is simply wrong, at least wrt these engines. Other relative noobs, most of whom haven't spent much time reading the history of CW on this subject, chime in, confirming the wrong information.

Changing fanboi minds is pretty much impossible, but to others coming across this dumb thread, 3-4k miles max, unless you're running a Sohn. Btw, 20w-50 will significantly reduce oil flow because of the bypasses set to 70 psi on the stock S1 Renny. There are whole threads on this subject.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

*facepalm*

*must resist*

only thing I'm gonna put into this thread is : OP is a moron.

/end

xexok

When they ask for your receipts to prove you have done the oil changes they would show royal purple synthetic. You could probably still get the engine warrantied but you would most likely have to fight for it.

bse50

Yeah.. at least the got the part that says that most synthetics aren't bad for our engines. Too bad the reasons that were posted are a load of bullshit.