Oil catch can vs breather vs breather catch can
08-15-2009, 04:55 PM
#52
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08-18-2009, 01:36 PM
#53
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Also, did you have oil in your intake to begin with?
I have like an ounce just sitting in the ribs of my accordian, It would scare me to death to try this without a catch.
But, I'm going to buy a little filter and just see if it gets soaked.
I'll post some pictures. Maybe...
02-08-2010, 08:45 PM
#55
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Oily Mess in Intake accordion
OK then. Thread revival because I got pics of the mess that was in the Intake accordion. The reason I took the Intake apart was because I was doing a Seafoam DeCarb and took out the air box to get to the ESP connector and spray the TB and look what I found. 
Check this out
What the F@*!
I was expecting some residu on the surface, not pools of oil and crap.
This one show how the condensation is mixing with oil and making it milky brown.
When I first met MM at Mazfest in May of 09' and asked him about his 3 can setup he made it a point to tell me (being a new 8 owner) to get one (catch can) setup to keep the junk out of the TB etc.. Boy was he right.
So I guess my next move is to get a catch can hooked up ASAP.
Any way I continued with the DeCarb using SeaFoam. What a difference. Here is a pic of the Auto Syringe and 3/16 ID tubing for injecting the Seafoam into the rotors.
Hope this helps anyone that might be on the fence about getting a catch can.
Thanks MM and everyone else that has contributed to this thread.
Check this out
What the F@*!
I was expecting some residu on the surface, not pools of oil and crap.
This one show how the condensation is mixing with oil and making it milky brown.
When I first met MM at Mazfest in May of 09' and asked him about his 3 can setup he made it a point to tell me (being a new 8 owner) to get one (catch can) setup to keep the junk out of the TB etc.. Boy was he right.
So I guess my next move is to get a catch can hooked up ASAP.
Any way I continued with the DeCarb using SeaFoam. What a difference. Here is a pic of the Auto Syringe and 3/16 ID tubing for injecting the Seafoam into the rotors.
Hope this helps anyone that might be on the fence about getting a catch can.
Thanks MM and everyone else that has contributed to this thread.
02-08-2010, 08:53 PM
#56
Sounds a bit sketchy to me... why risk it?
Also, did you have oil in your intake to begin with?
I have like an ounce just sitting in the ribs of my accordian, It would scare me to death to try this without a catch.
But, I'm going to buy a little filter and just see if it gets soaked.
I'll post some pictures. Maybe...
Also, did you have oil in your intake to begin with?
I have like an ounce just sitting in the ribs of my accordian, It would scare me to death to try this without a catch.
But, I'm going to buy a little filter and just see if it gets soaked.
I'll post some pictures. Maybe...
Are you afraid?
Just use that hose to the intake and put it on there.
Gee you really think this car spits out oil?
01-26-2011, 02:36 AM
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Howzit everyone,
I see there is quite a lot of chat about this topic.
I would choose to user the "breather to catch tank (with 3 or so bathels) and directly back to intake."
The biggest reason why a catch tank is to be installed is only to catch up the physical oil drip or most of the oil, the oil vapor witch is microscopically small would be great to have mixed in your air intake because it is ignitable in this state. I'm just not sure what the effect would be on the oxygen sensor. The problem with physical oil going back through your intake is of coarse messing everything up and packing against your intake walls and valves, but the worst effect is that it polishes your cylinder sleeves thus blow by therefore increases up until a certain point.
I see there is quite a lot of chat about this topic.
I would choose to user the "breather to catch tank (with 3 or so bathels) and directly back to intake."
The biggest reason why a catch tank is to be installed is only to catch up the physical oil drip or most of the oil, the oil vapor witch is microscopically small would be great to have mixed in your air intake because it is ignitable in this state. I'm just not sure what the effect would be on the oxygen sensor. The problem with physical oil going back through your intake is of coarse messing everything up and packing against your intake walls and valves, but the worst effect is that it polishes your cylinder sleeves thus blow by therefore increases up until a certain point.
12-09-2011, 12:27 PM
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Why don't people use the old stand by method of putting a large clear fuel filter onto the filler neck and for the 06 and up models, cap off that inlet hose and let it be or remove that hose altogether and cap off the two intake manifold inlets for that hose? ( less restriction on air flow using a large fuel filter with a top and bottom outlet, attached from the oil filler tube)
Is an air compressor's filter more restrictive than using a clear fuel filter type?
Is an air compressor's filter more restrictive than using a clear fuel filter type?
12-09-2011, 01:05 PM
#59
thats because you have no blow by, plus you dont have any vacuum to pull what ever is coming up the neck into your catch can (witch should be nothing if your not getting blow by)I prefer having vacuum on it.
for those just running a filter on the neck, you will notice small specs of oil here and there, if this is not cleaned up in timely fashions you will end up with a flammable engine bay.
12-09-2011, 02:59 PM
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Howzit everyone,
I see there is quite a lot of chat about this topic.
I would choose to user the "breather to catch tank (with 3 or so bathels) and directly back to intake."
The biggest reason why a catch tank is to be installed is only to catch up the physical oil drip or most of the oil, the oil vapor witch is microscopically small would be great to have mixed in your air intake because it is ignitable in this state. I'm just not sure what the effect would be on the oxygen sensor. The problem with physical oil going back through your intake is of coarse messing everything up and packing against your intake walls and valves, but the worst effect is that it polishes your cylinder sleeves thus blow by therefore increases up until a certain point.
I see there is quite a lot of chat about this topic.
I would choose to user the "breather to catch tank (with 3 or so bathels) and directly back to intake."
The biggest reason why a catch tank is to be installed is only to catch up the physical oil drip or most of the oil, the oil vapor witch is microscopically small would be great to have mixed in your air intake because it is ignitable in this state. I'm just not sure what the effect would be on the oxygen sensor. The problem with physical oil going back through your intake is of coarse messing everything up and packing against your intake walls and valves, but the worst effect is that it polishes your cylinder sleeves thus blow by therefore increases up until a certain point.
Some oils will condense out of vapors like when using our stil for booz
I'm sure the oil is not effecting oxygen sensor or rotary engine would not have oil injected to cool apex seels and corners.
First rotarties used premix and them guys had some oxygens sensor things to.
Keep reading stuff you will learn. till then stop posting i am just joking.
12-11-2011, 12:04 PM
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edited:
I installed a clear plastic canister type of fuel filter, picked it up from the O'Reilly auto store outlet for a whopping $2.66.
I ran about a foot length of 3/8 fuel line hose off of the oil filler tube port. the hose now vents beside the shock tower where there should be a bit of negative pressure inside the engine bay to allow for some guaranteed draw so there can be no chance of any crankcase pressure build up when at low rpms, i.e., low engine vacume.
Some have posted on the so called benefits of re-routing the crank case fumes from a catch can and running it back into the intake. But that is what the OEM design does and it does this for one reason_ EPA emissions. On the pre '06 RX8 models, crankcase fumes are sucked back into the black rubber, accordian type tube of the intake.
On the '06 through at least the '08 models as far as I can see, the PCV crankcase fumes bypass the pre-TB accordian tube and instead, it gets directed to a lower spot, into the intake manifold. This system uses a Y split- using 2 smaller hoses to connect to the intake manifold.
Remember that the original crank case PCV return system was designed only to handle the fumes. There is no power or mileage based need to ever have an engine sucking in its own crappy crankcase fumes.
Why reusing the crankcase fumes __suck... no pun intended: The newer FSI type of conventional engines (i.e., the engines that are running the super high fuel pressures found in most 2007 and up high end cars such as like the Audi's 4.2 V8 and Lexus engines) were designed again to get a little better mpg and power as well as to meet newer emissions standards. The FSI system is now in many domestic cars. The problem Audi has is that carbon builds up too quickly.
Some engines with only 25,000 miles had cylinder head issues and nasty intake valve deposits.
To combat this problem, Lexus was smarter and added a small injector upstream of the intake valves to keep them cleaner. Audi however, relied upon a cheaper fix. They used a three section-cyclonic type design Catch can.
It is essentially a "swirl the crank case fumes" return oil catch can system. The Audi cyclonic design of their catch can method spins incoming crank case fumes, causing oil droplets to separate from the fumes and then the oil droplets fall against the inner wall. From there, the oil droplets are then returned back to the oil pan. It seems to work ok to separate the fumes from the oil droplets so it is not causing too much crap to gunk up the intake valves..so they say, but the number of engine warranty work reported for these FSI type engines for Audi has been great. The oily gunk coming from the crank case is higher in FSI engines, given they run much higher internal pressures. When that crappy fume hits the back side of their hot intake valves, it turns to coked up gunk. Without some fuel to dissolve that stuff, it soon builds up.
So, I think that running any_ even filtered catch can fumes, back into the our rotary engines is only delaying the gunk build up on the SSV shaft and other internal components. Clean intake air is always best.
Mazda switched to the Y split dual hose setup for directly routing to the intake manifold ports in 2006? or 2007 because of customer complaints of sludge/water condensate building up inside the accordian intake tube and inside the oil cap- as the above photos show. Mazda's newer Y split, two hose design only hides the problem from view. It can cause a new problem. The crank case fumes get concentrated closer to the SSV valve. The SSV that is supposed to open at around 7k rpms. Running the car to redline every day may help prevent the sludge buildup on the SSV. The long distance cruising and long idling is a high vacuum situation and that will generate more crankcase fume sludge building up in the original Mazda closed loop pcv system, regardless of which model... When we re-route the crankcase fumes away from the intake and instead, we lead the fumes to the atmosphere., then the problem is resolved.
A cool looking valve cover type breather can be had for about $15.00 or a $2.66 clear fuel filter are options to the spendy aftermarket catch can setups.
I installed a clear plastic canister type of fuel filter, picked it up from the O'Reilly auto store outlet for a whopping $2.66.
I ran about a foot length of 3/8 fuel line hose off of the oil filler tube port. the hose now vents beside the shock tower where there should be a bit of negative pressure inside the engine bay to allow for some guaranteed draw so there can be no chance of any crankcase pressure build up when at low rpms, i.e., low engine vacume.
Some have posted on the so called benefits of re-routing the crank case fumes from a catch can and running it back into the intake. But that is what the OEM design does and it does this for one reason_ EPA emissions. On the pre '06 RX8 models, crankcase fumes are sucked back into the black rubber, accordian type tube of the intake.
On the '06 through at least the '08 models as far as I can see, the PCV crankcase fumes bypass the pre-TB accordian tube and instead, it gets directed to a lower spot, into the intake manifold. This system uses a Y split- using 2 smaller hoses to connect to the intake manifold.
Remember that the original crank case PCV return system was designed only to handle the fumes. There is no power or mileage based need to ever have an engine sucking in its own crappy crankcase fumes.
Why reusing the crankcase fumes __suck... no pun intended: The newer FSI type of conventional engines (i.e., the engines that are running the super high fuel pressures found in most 2007 and up high end cars such as like the Audi's 4.2 V8 and Lexus engines) were designed again to get a little better mpg and power as well as to meet newer emissions standards. The FSI system is now in many domestic cars. The problem Audi has is that carbon builds up too quickly.
Some engines with only 25,000 miles had cylinder head issues and nasty intake valve deposits.
To combat this problem, Lexus was smarter and added a small injector upstream of the intake valves to keep them cleaner. Audi however, relied upon a cheaper fix. They used a three section-cyclonic type design Catch can.
It is essentially a "swirl the crank case fumes" return oil catch can system. The Audi cyclonic design of their catch can method spins incoming crank case fumes, causing oil droplets to separate from the fumes and then the oil droplets fall against the inner wall. From there, the oil droplets are then returned back to the oil pan. It seems to work ok to separate the fumes from the oil droplets so it is not causing too much crap to gunk up the intake valves..so they say, but the number of engine warranty work reported for these FSI type engines for Audi has been great. The oily gunk coming from the crank case is higher in FSI engines, given they run much higher internal pressures. When that crappy fume hits the back side of their hot intake valves, it turns to coked up gunk. Without some fuel to dissolve that stuff, it soon builds up.
So, I think that running any_ even filtered catch can fumes, back into the our rotary engines is only delaying the gunk build up on the SSV shaft and other internal components. Clean intake air is always best.
Mazda switched to the Y split dual hose setup for directly routing to the intake manifold ports in 2006? or 2007 because of customer complaints of sludge/water condensate building up inside the accordian intake tube and inside the oil cap- as the above photos show. Mazda's newer Y split, two hose design only hides the problem from view. It can cause a new problem. The crank case fumes get concentrated closer to the SSV valve. The SSV that is supposed to open at around 7k rpms. Running the car to redline every day may help prevent the sludge buildup on the SSV. The long distance cruising and long idling is a high vacuum situation and that will generate more crankcase fume sludge building up in the original Mazda closed loop pcv system, regardless of which model... When we re-route the crankcase fumes away from the intake and instead, we lead the fumes to the atmosphere., then the problem is resolved.
A cool looking valve cover type breather can be had for about $15.00 or a $2.66 clear fuel filter are options to the spendy aftermarket catch can setups.
12-11-2011, 05:08 PM
#64
Folks,
As a catch can owner, and someone that screwed up the first install, there are oil to intake interactions with all the hoses (3 in 04-05, 2 in the rest). They are after the MAF for a reason, air, under certain circumstances, goes from the intake tube into those hoses and ends up in the engine. If the MAF does not see that air, then you have the equivalent of a vacuum leak. That is not good. I connected all three lines together, and ran them into the can. I then ran the output of the can to atmosphere with a filter on it. When I got the car tuned, it showed a significant fuel trim (rich) value and had a very long learning curve when the ECU was reset. The tuner (MM) told me I needed to fix the vacuum leak before I could go any further. When I ran the output of the can back to the intake, the fuel trips leveled out, the tune could be completed, the car ran great after an ECU reset.
Details??
I have an 04, of the 3 lines, one goes to the oil filler, one goes to the back of the OMP injectors (drippers) and one goes to the back of the check valve for the feed to the OMP pump. I believe, that in the right circumstances, any of those three lines can be a source of oil. One in an overfill situation, the other two if a check valve does not seat correctly and dumps pressurized oil into the accordion. The bad thing about check valves is they can un-stick after they cause the problem and blame the issue on the oil filler.
Now, a side effect of this approach is that the oil drippers are now feeding on the gasses from the oil filler as well as the air from the intake. Since they seem to use significantly more air than comes out of the breather, my bet is very little in the way of oil fumes make it into my intake, the fumes go directly into the combustion chamber through the drippers (bypassing the SSV, Throttle Body and everything else).
Comments?
As a catch can owner, and someone that screwed up the first install, there are oil to intake interactions with all the hoses (3 in 04-05, 2 in the rest). They are after the MAF for a reason, air, under certain circumstances, goes from the intake tube into those hoses and ends up in the engine. If the MAF does not see that air, then you have the equivalent of a vacuum leak. That is not good. I connected all three lines together, and ran them into the can. I then ran the output of the can to atmosphere with a filter on it. When I got the car tuned, it showed a significant fuel trim (rich) value and had a very long learning curve when the ECU was reset. The tuner (MM) told me I needed to fix the vacuum leak before I could go any further. When I ran the output of the can back to the intake, the fuel trips leveled out, the tune could be completed, the car ran great after an ECU reset.
Details??
I have an 04, of the 3 lines, one goes to the oil filler, one goes to the back of the OMP injectors (drippers) and one goes to the back of the check valve for the feed to the OMP pump. I believe, that in the right circumstances, any of those three lines can be a source of oil. One in an overfill situation, the other two if a check valve does not seat correctly and dumps pressurized oil into the accordion. The bad thing about check valves is they can un-stick after they cause the problem and blame the issue on the oil filler.
Now, a side effect of this approach is that the oil drippers are now feeding on the gasses from the oil filler as well as the air from the intake. Since they seem to use significantly more air than comes out of the breather, my bet is very little in the way of oil fumes make it into my intake, the fumes go directly into the combustion chamber through the drippers (bypassing the SSV, Throttle Body and everything else).
Comments?
12-11-2011, 05:53 PM
#65
Details??
I have an 04, of the 3 lines, one goes to the oil filler, one goes to the back of the OMP injectors (drippers) and one goes to the back of the check valve for the feed to the OMP pump. I believe, that in the right circumstances, any of those three lines can be a source of oil. One in an overfill situation, the other two if a check valve does not seat correctly and dumps pressurized oil into the accordion. The bad thing about check valves is they can un-stick after they cause the problem and blame the issue on the oil filler.
I thought it was.. one line was for the Jet-Air Nozzle System, one for the oil injectors, One for the oil filler.
12-12-2011, 10:23 AM
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Can some one chime in on the "benefits " of keeping the oil filler hose connected vs. using a breather catch can or is the ideal thing to just splice in a large fuel filter between the oil filler tube and the hose that goes to the two lower maintenence ports ?
12-12-2011, 09:07 PM
#67
@1.3,
Just went through the drawings, and the car. What you posted matches my vehicle. I went back and re-looked at some other stuff and am pretty sure where I confused myself. I found a different detail drawing of the oil injectors that looked for all the world like it was feeding the OMP, not the other way around. You are right. I found a good picture of how the Jet Air system works at http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/C...0000001985.pdf.
That also explains how so much air is used. I could not figure out how the injectors used that much air, but Jet Air surely will.
Updated Belief, based on data from 1.3...
I would run the oil fill line through a catch can. Same for the oil injector line (to keep a stuck valve from sending oil the wrong way). Then, if you want to keep all of the fumes out of the intake, run the Jet Air line in as well. That means Jet Air will take the fumes and feed them directly (or as near as matters) into the intake port without sending them through the throttle body, runners, valves and such.
Thanks, I am know more now than I did before. I do not plan on changing anything, but I have a better reason for doing what I did.
@ KRM,
If you have lines running to the maintenance ports, no worries about the filler line. That is the fix implemented in 06 or so. There are threads on that. I do not see why a filter would hurt though.
Just went through the drawings, and the car. What you posted matches my vehicle. I went back and re-looked at some other stuff and am pretty sure where I confused myself. I found a different detail drawing of the oil injectors that looked for all the world like it was feeding the OMP, not the other way around. You are right. I found a good picture of how the Jet Air system works at http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/C...0000001985.pdf.
That also explains how so much air is used. I could not figure out how the injectors used that much air, but Jet Air surely will.
Updated Belief, based on data from 1.3...
I would run the oil fill line through a catch can. Same for the oil injector line (to keep a stuck valve from sending oil the wrong way). Then, if you want to keep all of the fumes out of the intake, run the Jet Air line in as well. That means Jet Air will take the fumes and feed them directly (or as near as matters) into the intake port without sending them through the throttle body, runners, valves and such.
Thanks, I am know more now than I did before. I do not plan on changing anything, but I have a better reason for doing what I did.
@ KRM,
If you have lines running to the maintenance ports, no worries about the filler line. That is the fix implemented in 06 or so. There are threads on that. I do not see why a filter would hurt though.
12-22-2011, 08:31 AM
#69
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Here is the catch can I used . . .
This is the 1 PINT MINI BREATHER made by JAZ Products that I used for my setup. It's designed as a fuel breather but works great for my application. It's small enough to mound in front of the washer fluid tank and lower than the oil fill neck. I has a drain valve at the botton and I have a line routed to bottom of the car if it ever has to be drained. A turkey baster would work in a pinch if I just wanted to suck the oil out from the top.
. . . don't know if I got the pictures attached correctly? This is my first post if I remember correctly . . .
I will attach more pictures of the install when I get home.
. . . don't know if I got the pictures attached correctly? This is my first post if I remember correctly . . .
I will attach more pictures of the install when I get home.
04-16-2015, 04:49 PM
#75
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forgive me for bringing up an old thread but what about simply running an open ended hose line from the nipple on the oil filler neck down the side the engine that comes out the under tray and cap the nipple on the accordion of the intake?? what harm would that do, if any?