New TSB 3/14/08
03-18-2008, 06:57 PM
#26
Where do you get that? The TSBs explain—in great detail—what needs to be done. In fact, in one of them, a specific engine cleaner is mentioned, along with incredibly specific instructions on how it's to be used. In the 35 pages of the three new TSBs, do you see the word "premix" mentioned? Even once?
A few facts:
1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.
2) If there are things that can be done to help make your engine last longer, Mazda will make those things known. Even if they're an inconvenience. Like having to drag your car to the dealer for a new flash.
3) If the new TSBs wanted you to premix, they would use the word "premix" somewhere in the 35 pages. At least once, if not several times. (That's how language works.) What's more, Mazda would explain, in tedious detail—and with multiple illustrations—what to premix with, how to premix, and when to premix. Yet there's no mention of premix in 35 pages. Not one mention.
That tells me something.
A few facts:
1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.
2) If there are things that can be done to help make your engine last longer, Mazda will make those things known. Even if they're an inconvenience. Like having to drag your car to the dealer for a new flash.
3) If the new TSBs wanted you to premix, they would use the word "premix" somewhere in the 35 pages. At least once, if not several times. (That's how language works.) What's more, Mazda would explain, in tedious detail—and with multiple illustrations—what to premix with, how to premix, and when to premix. Yet there's no mention of premix in 35 pages. Not one mention.
That tells me something.
I think Mazda's TSB support RG's earlier idea about what is going on with our Renesis. Not enough lube results in early death of Apex seals. Look at those Apex seals from expo's engine, it looks freaking nasty for a 110K NA rotary engine.
This is like what the 3rd or 4th time that Mazda increased the OMP's injection rate for Renesis, what does that tell us ? They are still trying.
Mazda knows best about making Rotary, I guess so. But does Mazda knows all ? I doubt it.
I look around forums all over the world and I got into these conclusion :
1. In Japan, they dont even have as many *new* flashes as us, most people use at least 0w35 (yeah I know weird)
2. If you use 5w20 in Japan for Rotary, regardless of generation, people will think you're crazy.
3. Almost all rotaries in Japan use Full Synthetic oil.
4. Almost all of them premix.
03-18-2008, 06:58 PM
#27
I had my 2005 6MT flashed to "H" and it does run better than before. The 4-7k range feels much better and idle stability has improved. I wont make any "Butt Dyno" claims. I will however be going to the dyno soom and am optomistic.
03-18-2008, 07:49 PM
#28
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Where do you get that? The TSBs explain—in great detail—what needs to be done. In fact, in one of them, a specific engine cleaner is mentioned, along with incredibly specific instructions on how it's to be used. In the 35 pages of the three new TSBs, do you see the word "premix" mentioned? Even once?
A few facts:
1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.
2) If there are things that can be done to help make your engine last longer, Mazda will make those things known. Even if they're an inconvenience. Like having to drag your car to the dealer for a new flash.
3) If the new TSBs wanted you to premix, they would use the word "premix" somewhere in the 35 pages. At least once, if not several times. (That's how language works.) What's more, Mazda would explain, in tedious detail—and with multiple illustrations—what to premix with, how to premix, and when to premix. Yet there's no mention of premix in 35 pages. Not one mention.
That tells me something.
A few facts:
1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.
2) If there are things that can be done to help make your engine last longer, Mazda will make those things known. Even if they're an inconvenience. Like having to drag your car to the dealer for a new flash.
3) If the new TSBs wanted you to premix, they would use the word "premix" somewhere in the 35 pages. At least once, if not several times. (That's how language works.) What's more, Mazda would explain, in tedious detail—and with multiple illustrations—what to premix with, how to premix, and when to premix. Yet there's no mention of premix in 35 pages. Not one mention.
That tells me something.
Mazda will never mention premixing for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.
-- People do not expect to have to go to such trouble to maintain a car. --
Even if Mazda knew/knows/discovered that premixing is the best option for 2004 to 2008 Renesis engines, they wouldn't mention it because of that fact. People cant be bothered with such complications.
So they do what they can, reflash with more oil pumping through the OMP, redesign the engine, water pump, oil pump, more oil injectors etc...
Everyone is right, those TSB's are the best we'll get to Mazda admitting the engine needs more lubrication, and for us the best option is premixing.
03-18-2008, 10:35 PM
#29
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Others have given their opinion on your specific points, however I will mention 1 thing.
Mazda will never mention premixing for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.
-- People do not expect to have to go to such trouble to maintain a car. --
Even if Mazda knew/knows/discovered that premixing is the best option for 2004 to 2008 Renesis engines, they wouldn't mention it because of that fact. People cant be bothered with such complications.
So they do what they can, reflash with more oil pumping through the OMP, redesign the engine, water pump, oil pump, more oil injectors etc...
Everyone is right, those TSB's are the best we'll get to Mazda admitting the engine needs more lubrication, and for us the best option is premixing.
Mazda will never mention premixing for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.
-- People do not expect to have to go to such trouble to maintain a car. --
Even if Mazda knew/knows/discovered that premixing is the best option for 2004 to 2008 Renesis engines, they wouldn't mention it because of that fact. People cant be bothered with such complications.
So they do what they can, reflash with more oil pumping through the OMP, redesign the engine, water pump, oil pump, more oil injectors etc...
Everyone is right, those TSB's are the best we'll get to Mazda admitting the engine needs more lubrication, and for us the best option is premixing.
03-19-2008, 01:29 AM
#30
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I'm a new rotary owner and I am premixing with Idemitsu. I had never even heard of doing this before, but it does not bother me one bit. I love the car and realize it is unique and requires special attention. Based on what I've read, you'd have to be in denial to not premix. I toss in about 4oz per tank when the light comes on, and so far average about 210 mile range, hard driving.
I'll be switching to 10w30 at 3000 miles.
I'll be switching to 10w30 at 3000 miles.
Last edited by surgery; 03-19-2008 at 01:38 AM.
03-19-2008, 08:42 AM
#31
I thought about premixing. But when I emailed Idemitsu about it, they said I shouldn't do it for a stock, non-raced car.
I also asked the guys at Wayne Mazda, the largest Mazda dealer in the country. They also said I shouldn't premix, and that the engines with problems were mostly '04s and/or engines that had been modded, or their owners had used the wrong oil, not changed the oil on schedule, or had let the oil level get too low.
I'm not saying premix is bad; I just don't believe it's necessary for an owner who regularly checks oil level, has a bone stock car, doesn't race, and changes oil every few months.
I think only a tiny percentage of 8 owners premix. If premixing were, in fact, necessary for normal engine life, the 8's reliability rating would clearly suffer in long-term road tests (Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com) and in Consumer Reports. But its reliability is generally rated "average" compared to all other cars. (Road & Track rated reliability excellent, as I recall.)
I also asked the guys at Wayne Mazda, the largest Mazda dealer in the country. They also said I shouldn't premix, and that the engines with problems were mostly '04s and/or engines that had been modded, or their owners had used the wrong oil, not changed the oil on schedule, or had let the oil level get too low.
I'm not saying premix is bad; I just don't believe it's necessary for an owner who regularly checks oil level, has a bone stock car, doesn't race, and changes oil every few months.
I think only a tiny percentage of 8 owners premix. If premixing were, in fact, necessary for normal engine life, the 8's reliability rating would clearly suffer in long-term road tests (Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com) and in Consumer Reports. But its reliability is generally rated "average" compared to all other cars. (Road & Track rated reliability excellent, as I recall.)
Last edited by New Yorker; 03-19-2008 at 10:38 AM.
03-19-2008, 10:05 AM
#32
I thought about premixing. But when I emailed Idemitsu about it, they said I shouldn't do it for a stock, non-raced car.
I also asked the guys at Wayne Mazda, the largest Mazda dealer in the country. They also said I shouldn't premix, and that the engines with problems were mostly '04s and/or engines that had been modded, or their owners had used the wrong oil, not changed the oil on schedule, or had let the oil level get too low.
I'm not saying premix is bad; I just don't believe it's necessary for an owner who regularly checks oil level, has a bone stock, doesn't race, and changes oil every few months.
I think only a tiny percentage of 8 owners premix. If premixing were, in fact, necessary for normal engine life, the 8's reliability rating would clearly suffer in long-term road tests (Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com) and in Consumer Reports. But its reliability is generally rated "average" compared to all other cars. (Road & Track rated reliability excellent, as I recall.)
I also asked the guys at Wayne Mazda, the largest Mazda dealer in the country. They also said I shouldn't premix, and that the engines with problems were mostly '04s and/or engines that had been modded, or their owners had used the wrong oil, not changed the oil on schedule, or had let the oil level get too low.
I'm not saying premix is bad; I just don't believe it's necessary for an owner who regularly checks oil level, has a bone stock, doesn't race, and changes oil every few months.
I think only a tiny percentage of 8 owners premix. If premixing were, in fact, necessary for normal engine life, the 8's reliability rating would clearly suffer in long-term road tests (Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com) and in Consumer Reports. But its reliability is generally rated "average" compared to all other cars. (Road & Track rated reliability excellent, as I recall.)
To most people, as long as the car can go 100K miles, thats *average/acceptable*
To me : I need at least 200K.
and for me, Dealership is the last place I will go for "tips"
If you want to keep your engine for 100K, you dont really have to premix, but for 200K, Im sure premix is a must.
Last edited by nycgps; 03-19-2008 at 10:08 AM.
03-19-2008, 10:44 AM
#34
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Instead of Sea Foam I'm wondering about using this stuff... Also anyone think we can get the engine cleaner over the counter?
http://www.re-amemiya.co.jp/hi_power_jet_g/
http://www.re-amemiya.co.jp/hi_power_jet_g/
Last edited by savedsol; 03-19-2008 at 10:50 AM.
03-19-2008, 10:58 AM
#35
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I just got the flash update!
got my pads changed this morning to!
i switched to royal purple 5w-30
yep yep hopefully my car will feel a little smoother and idle a little better
anyone get the new updated flash??? any comments on how the car felt?
got my pads changed this morning to!
i switched to royal purple 5w-30
yep yep hopefully my car will feel a little smoother and idle a little better
anyone get the new updated flash??? any comments on how the car felt?
03-19-2008, 09:15 PM
#37
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I got the MSP-16 yesterday. All the power is back. Idle is stable again. The car sounds slightly different and winds up to 8K very smoothly. I'm anticipating oil consumption to increase. I was adding about 1/2 quart every thousand miles.
03-19-2008, 09:30 PM
#38
I want a full confession. A dishonorable discharge and Hari Kary by the top elite.
Then 5,000 bucks off the new 16x for being a loyal customer.
What!
How about more kindness at the dealership and no questions asked concerning your car when you take it in for repair regardless of modifications added.
Now that would buy some loyalty!
03-20-2008, 06:38 AM
#39
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got the recall done. however, no sticker affixed under the hood indicating flash was done. will try back MNAO for status on if the msp16 was actually performed like stated in the repair order.
how the car feels?: it feels more torquey around mid-range and has some ***** when pulling above 7k rpms now. and also even with the weather starting to warm up here in so-cal, the oil temps has stayed low and under 200 even in traffic (RB autometer gauge) it does peep above 200 degrees but thats only a short period and not as high as i've seen before. the temps has obviously came down more that i can notice the difference.
will see if any MPGs improve...
how the car feels?: it feels more torquey around mid-range and has some ***** when pulling above 7k rpms now. and also even with the weather starting to warm up here in so-cal, the oil temps has stayed low and under 200 even in traffic (RB autometer gauge) it does peep above 200 degrees but thats only a short period and not as high as i've seen before. the temps has obviously came down more that i can notice the difference.
will see if any MPGs improve...
03-20-2008, 07:56 AM
#40
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i'm still not convinced on premixing at the high rates some people are doing in here on top of a functioning MOP. Lets face it, the rotary engine normally looses compression and fails for either seal wear or carbon-lock. Over premixing just trades one failure mode for the other.
I prefer something like an oz of FPplus in my tank... adds some lubricity and melts away carbon at the same time. Best of both worlds IMO.
I prefer something like an oz of FPplus in my tank... adds some lubricity and melts away carbon at the same time. Best of both worlds IMO.
Last edited by r0tor; 03-20-2008 at 10:12 AM.
03-20-2008, 09:29 AM
#41
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And, even with OMP, I'm sure they want the oil consumption as low as possible so that consumers don't view it as a maintenance hog. It wasn't all that long ago that drivers expected to add oil to their cars regularly. Not anymore. That makes the rotary odd in that respect. Another equally important factor is emissions. I believe this is why they have struggled with the OMP programming. Most likely they could have better performance and longevity had they been more generous with the oil from the beginning. But oil has to pass through the engine and exhaust. Longer hydrocarbon chains, harder to completely oxidize. End result is particulates -- increased emissions. And you can see that these increases in oil delivery have been very careful. Even this latest talks about an increase *at startup*, and also only under "high" ambient air temperatures. In other words, the increases are carefully targetted. During most normal driving, oil rate stays the same.
03-20-2008, 11:16 AM
#42
That's certainly part of it. The average consumer would begin wondering why there is a Weed-Whacker engine in the car. And, even with OMP, I'm sure they want the oil consumption as low as possible so that consumers don't view it as a maintenance hog. It wasn't all that long ago that drivers expected to add oil to their cars regularly. Not anymore. That makes the rotary odd in that respect.
Another equally important factor is emissions. I believe this is why they have struggled with the OMP programming. Most likely they could have better performance and longevity had they been more generous with the oil from the beginning. But oil has to pass through the engine and exhaust. Longer hydrocarbon chains, harder to completely oxidize. End result is particulates -- increased emissions. And you can see that these increases in oil delivery have been very careful. Even this latest talks about an increase *at startup*, and also only under "high" ambient air temperatures. In other words, the increases are carefully targetted. During most normal driving, oil rate stays the same.
And, even with OMP, I'm sure they want the oil consumption as low as possible so that consumers don't view it as a maintenance hog. It wasn't all that long ago that drivers expected to add oil to their cars regularly. Not anymore. That makes the rotary odd in that respect. Another equally important factor is emissions. I believe this is why they have struggled with the OMP programming. Most likely they could have better performance and longevity had they been more generous with the oil from the beginning. But oil has to pass through the engine and exhaust. Longer hydrocarbon chains, harder to completely oxidize. End result is particulates -- increased emissions. And you can see that these increases in oil delivery have been very careful. Even this latest talks about an increase *at startup*, and also only under "high" ambient air temperatures. In other words, the increases are carefully targetted. During most normal driving, oil rate stays the same.
People are fuxking lazy as hell at all times, lets just say Mazda finally has the ***** to make a tank just for *premix only*(no more engine oil for lube), then start telling buyers that *Hey, you have to add 1 quart of 2 cycle premix into this tank when the warning light is on ...*
What will happen to Rotary ? Im pretty sure it will be gone in the first year cuz no one will buy it.
I know I dont have to eat veggy to stay alive, but if I want to live longer, I need to have some everyday.
03-20-2008, 12:06 PM
#44
Well I got the MSP16 reflash today just to be on the safe side and I didn't realize I was missing so much power?!!? 
I just thought that was the way the car accellerated. The engine sounds sooo much smoother and getting the up the RPMS is a lot easier. Since this is my daily driver and I can notice a big difference. I just wish I had video of the RPM before and after but like I said I didn't think there was anything wrong with my car so I didn't think much of it.
I was just wondering about this engine cleaning because they did not do it. Do I need it? They recommended it but they wanted to charge me like $176.00. I usually use top tier gas mostly Shell and I redline like every other day or so.
I just thought that was the way the car accellerated. The engine sounds sooo much smoother and getting the up the RPMS is a lot easier. Since this is my daily driver and I can notice a big difference. I just wish I had video of the RPM before and after but like I said I didn't think there was anything wrong with my car so I didn't think much of it. I was just wondering about this engine cleaning because they did not do it. Do I need it? They recommended it but they wanted to charge me like $176.00. I usually use top tier gas mostly Shell and I redline like every other day or so.
03-20-2008, 12:28 PM
#45
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Well I got the MSP16 reflash today just to be on the safe side and I didn't realize I was missing so much power?!!? I just thought that was the way the car accellerated. The engine sounds sooo much smoother and getting the up the RPMS is a lot easier. Since this is my daily driver and I can notice a big difference. I just wish I had video of the RPM before and after but like I said I didn't think there was anything wrong with my car so I didn't think much of it.
I was just wondering about this engine cleaning because they did not do it. Do I need it? They recommended it but they wanted to charge me like $176.00. I usually use top tier gas mostly Shell and I redline like every other day or so.
I just thought that was the way the car accellerated. The engine sounds sooo much smoother and getting the up the RPMS is a lot easier. Since this is my daily driver and I can notice a big difference. I just wish I had video of the RPM before and after but like I said I didn't think there was anything wrong with my car so I didn't think much of it. I was just wondering about this engine cleaning because they did not do it. Do I need it? They recommended it but they wanted to charge me like $176.00. I usually use top tier gas mostly Shell and I redline like every other day or so.
I love my new flash as well, definitely seems to accelerate better (merging on the freeway I was at 90 sooner than I thought, car pulled nicely in 3rd and 4th). Although, my gas gauge moved down about 2-3 ticks after only about 14 miles. I love this car!
03-20-2008, 12:32 PM
#46
Got Another Rotary
Mazda cannot advise you to do anything that would make the car perform outside of that cars model year emmisions standards.
Adding any premix containing oil WILL make the combustion and eventual exhaust not clean enough to meet these standards - why do you think they are so frugal with the OMP oil injection rates in the first place.
Mazda knows that premixing would help engine longevity, their not stupid, they just legally can't tell you do do it!
Last edited by Jax_RX8; 03-20-2008 at 12:38 PM.
03-20-2008, 12:40 PM
#47
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Engine cleaning? Doesn't exist in the maintenance section of the owner's manual. Sounds like a fancy dealer ripoff for adding fuel system cleaner to your gas tank (something like BG44K, Lucas UCL, Redline SI-1, Techron concentrate, etc.). I wouldn't worry about that "service."
03-20-2008, 02:01 PM
#48
INDY RX8 CLUB - Officer
Some of you may just be experiencing better accelleration because your trims were probably reset. When I pull my ROOM fuse, I get a good pick-up for the next few days.
03-20-2008, 03:12 PM
#49
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03-20-2008, 06:22 PM
#50
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is there anyway to tell what flash is on the car? I just picked my car up from the dealer for a engine light and they said it was reflashed. I was looking through the invoice and don't see anything. It was throwing the p0420 code but they just reset and said bring it back it if comes on again, then they will fix it. Car seemed to be running slightly better below half throttle, seemed slightly leaner and smoother.