Mazmarts oil pressure bypass install with some surprising findings!
01-25-2010, 01:10 PM
#26
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yeah tell that to those that have done all the maintenance on time and still had engine failures. For the most part on average, I would say that the series 1 8's usually don't make it to 100,000 miles (or much more) on the original engine doing the factory recommended maintenance. Just look on autotrader for higher mileage 8's and usually most of them are on new engines.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 01-25-2010 at 01:33 PM.
01-25-2010, 01:19 PM
#27
Yeah tell that to those that have done all the maintenance on time and still had engine failures. For the most part on average, I would say that the series 1 8's usually don't make it to 100,000 miles (or much more) on the original engine. Just look on autotrader for higher mileage 8's and usually most of them are on new engines.
01-25-2010, 02:31 PM
#34
1st---bearing wear has NEVER been associated with oil pressure problems. That is a oil viscosity problem per Rick. Viscosity being related to film strenght of the oil. It is not a pressure thing at all.
2- the Renesis engine cannot maintain factory recommend oil pressures in it's oem condition
3- The 09's changed the lubrication system. Rational thinking would indicate that makes it better. Deductive reasoning is sometimes all you have to go on when you dont have factory resources to study a problem. For example--- does the ls1 coil and oem dwell times actually improve our ignition (no pot shots meant!) Well deductive reasoning and logic would say "Why-- Hell yea!" and I would agree.
4- prelimanary evidence indicated that the oil takes less time to warm up as it is scrubbing more heat out of the engine with the higher pressures. Continues under study.
2- the Renesis engine cannot maintain factory recommend oil pressures in it's oem condition
3- The 09's changed the lubrication system. Rational thinking would indicate that makes it better. Deductive reasoning is sometimes all you have to go on when you dont have factory resources to study a problem. For example--- does the ls1 coil and oem dwell times actually improve our ignition (no pot shots meant!) Well deductive reasoning and logic would say "Why-- Hell yea!" and I would agree.
4- prelimanary evidence indicated that the oil takes less time to warm up as it is scrubbing more heat out of the engine with the higher pressures. Continues under study.
2) Who has demonstrated or proven this?
3) In your "LS coil" example, one would have to compare the electrical characteristics of each coil, use them in a variety of real-world applications, document the before/after, and and it certainly is a better process than "deductive reasoning". None of this has yet been done with regard to the lubrication system, as far as I am aware.
4) What "evidence"? If we are simply going to follow what Rick and Paul at Mazmart have to tell us, that is fair as they are really smart guys, but it hardly rises to the level of "evidence".
I just care not to be The Pied Piper of Idiotville any more than I already have been around here so I am remaining cautious on this particular issue.
01-25-2010, 04:02 PM
#36
Oh- I understand cautious.
And this is a good conversation
Let me add this please.
1- Improper viscosity/film strenght oil is thought to be the reason the front stationary bearing is having severe and irregular wear on many engines. It has been present on both of mine, one without the s.c. and one with the s.c. on tear down. My 2nd engine the s.c. one was bought used with approx 45K on it.
It is Rick E and Paul that has said this about the front bearing and I sure respect their findings.
2- what proof do you want ? I found this out in 2005 (i think that is right) after i installed my mechanical gauges. Factory recommended oil psi is 52psi at 3 K and oil temps at 212F with a 5W/20 oil. You will get between 48 and 50psi when the oil is at 180F--i didnt try 212F. Others have done the same. The oil pressure was taken approx 2 -3 inches straight above the factory check site. After seeing this I started using 5w 30 oil. and I remember the grief I got from informing others and recommending at least a 5w/30 oil--they didnt believe me and thought 5w/20 oil was fine to use. Oh well.
3- thats why i said "preliminary" . Evidence may have been the wrong word to use granted. Preliminary evidence is actually a contridiction (sic) in itself. Maybe I should have said "preliminary thoughts" instead. I appreciate any and all efforts to help keep my posts communicating in the proper context implied.
4- i think Mazda did a lot of testing in regard to the lubrication system and as a result the changes/needs were designed for the 09+ models. To the best of my knowledge all the oil channels and clearances in the 09's are the same as ours. The oil flow pattern changed some but the pressure increase changed dramatically. Even a higher by pass in the oil filter.
Is this a cure all? Heck no--never meant to be. Can this engine benefit from a higher oil pressure? Well I think it can. Isnt it funny that we have the highest output na rotor ever built yet we have the lowest oil pressure? + we have an additional 1 K rpms's?? Whats up with that Mazda?
What ever happened to that old belief that you need 10lbs of oil pressure for every 1k of rpm's?
Also with the old bypass's in place how much oil is being pumped back into the oil pan area without being filtered?
Then to really get subjective how about "certain people" that play with the rotor balance by pumping more oil to the rotors?
More to come ----
Great pics Don-----look at all that old oil----jeez.
OD
And this is a good conversation
Let me add this please.
1- Improper viscosity/film strenght oil is thought to be the reason the front stationary bearing is having severe and irregular wear on many engines. It has been present on both of mine, one without the s.c. and one with the s.c. on tear down. My 2nd engine the s.c. one was bought used with approx 45K on it.
It is Rick E and Paul that has said this about the front bearing and I sure respect their findings.
2- what proof do you want ? I found this out in 2005 (i think that is right) after i installed my mechanical gauges. Factory recommended oil psi is 52psi at 3 K and oil temps at 212F with a 5W/20 oil. You will get between 48 and 50psi when the oil is at 180F--i didnt try 212F. Others have done the same. The oil pressure was taken approx 2 -3 inches straight above the factory check site. After seeing this I started using 5w 30 oil. and I remember the grief I got from informing others and recommending at least a 5w/30 oil--they didnt believe me and thought 5w/20 oil was fine to use. Oh well.
3- thats why i said "preliminary" . Evidence may have been the wrong word to use granted. Preliminary evidence is actually a contridiction (sic) in itself. Maybe I should have said "preliminary thoughts" instead. I appreciate any and all efforts to help keep my posts communicating in the proper context implied.
4- i think Mazda did a lot of testing in regard to the lubrication system and as a result the changes/needs were designed for the 09+ models. To the best of my knowledge all the oil channels and clearances in the 09's are the same as ours. The oil flow pattern changed some but the pressure increase changed dramatically. Even a higher by pass in the oil filter.
Is this a cure all? Heck no--never meant to be. Can this engine benefit from a higher oil pressure? Well I think it can. Isnt it funny that we have the highest output na rotor ever built yet we have the lowest oil pressure? + we have an additional 1 K rpms's?? Whats up with that Mazda?
What ever happened to that old belief that you need 10lbs of oil pressure for every 1k of rpm's?
Also with the old bypass's in place how much oil is being pumped back into the oil pan area without being filtered?
Then to really get subjective how about "certain people" that play with the rotor balance by pumping more oil to the rotors?
More to come ----
Great pics Don-----look at all that old oil----jeez.
OD
01-25-2010, 06:22 PM
#38
Super Moderator
As far as bearing wear goes, I believe what Mr E has communicated through Paul, it is Viscosity first and Oil Pressure a far second.
People want facts, I believe I have presented more than enough by comparing what has changed between Series and what has not (mechanically)...when a part number is the same the part IS THE SAME.
We know the changes, we can assume WHY, Mazda never change unless there is a reason.
There has been No basic changes to E-shaft or the internals of the Renny 1 to Renny 2, bearings or stationary gears.
To repeat there have been major changes to lubricity, oil metering, some to cooling (fan speeds and motors)
You can make your own conclusions....
People want facts, I believe I have presented more than enough by comparing what has changed between Series and what has not (mechanically)...when a part number is the same the part IS THE SAME.
We know the changes, we can assume WHY, Mazda never change unless there is a reason.
There has been No basic changes to E-shaft or the internals of the Renny 1 to Renny 2, bearings or stationary gears.
To repeat there have been major changes to lubricity, oil metering, some to cooling (fan speeds and motors)
You can make your own conclusions....
01-25-2010, 07:25 PM
#39
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Thank you.
01-25-2010, 07:41 PM
#40
Okay, some initial tests, first including the data from a few days ago, then what I took a few minutes ago.
Ok, so I wanted to do a before/after on the op mod. I started with a 500 mile old oil change from the Mazda dealer, presumably the 5W/20. The previous owner used 10W/40, so the mixed viscosity, considering about 1/3 of the oil remains in the system was something like 7W/27 ... . The very same oil and filter were used for both runs. The car was run in my garage between idle and 3000 rpm to warm things up in a reasonable time:
Stock OP system:
Water Temp = 208F; Oil Temp = 203F; Air Temp = 37F
Pressure @ 900 rpm = 17 psi
Pressure @ 3000 rpm = 53 psi
REmedy OP system:
Water Temp = 208F; Oil Temp = 203F; Air Temp = 46F
Pressure @ 900 rpm = 17 psi
Pressure @ 3000 rpm = 57 psi
Next I changed the oil with 15W-40 Valvoline Blue, and replaced the series I oil filter with a new series II. The real viscosity, considering 45% of the oil remaining was lighter weight was something like 12W-35 (?). The following data are taken with the OP mod in place of course.
In the warmup phase, the temps and pressures at 3k rpm were:
Water Temp (F) Oil Temp (F) Oil Press (PSI)
----------------- ------------- ---------------
100 130 83
160 170 81
180 175 78
195 190 72
205 200 63
208 203 60
At a relatively steady 208F/203F the oil pressures vs rpm are:
rpm pressure
---- ---------
900 18
3000 60
4000 72
5000 87
6000 94
So the mod clearly boosts the max pressure over what was possible with the stock system. The pressure difference at 3k rpm, 7 psi, is most likely from the switch from "5W-20" to "15W-40". I was reluctant to run 'full out' in the garage, but wonder what the 7k 8k an 9ish k numbers look like.
Ok, so I wanted to do a before/after on the op mod. I started with a 500 mile old oil change from the Mazda dealer, presumably the 5W/20. The previous owner used 10W/40, so the mixed viscosity, considering about 1/3 of the oil remains in the system was something like 7W/27 ... . The very same oil and filter were used for both runs. The car was run in my garage between idle and 3000 rpm to warm things up in a reasonable time:
Stock OP system:
Water Temp = 208F; Oil Temp = 203F; Air Temp = 37F
Pressure @ 900 rpm = 17 psi
Pressure @ 3000 rpm = 53 psi
REmedy OP system:
Water Temp = 208F; Oil Temp = 203F; Air Temp = 46F
Pressure @ 900 rpm = 17 psi
Pressure @ 3000 rpm = 57 psi
Next I changed the oil with 15W-40 Valvoline Blue, and replaced the series I oil filter with a new series II. The real viscosity, considering 45% of the oil remaining was lighter weight was something like 12W-35 (?). The following data are taken with the OP mod in place of course.
In the warmup phase, the temps and pressures at 3k rpm were:
Water Temp (F) Oil Temp (F) Oil Press (PSI)
----------------- ------------- ---------------
100 130 83
160 170 81
180 175 78
195 190 72
205 200 63
208 203 60
At a relatively steady 208F/203F the oil pressures vs rpm are:
rpm pressure
---- ---------
900 18
3000 60
4000 72
5000 87
6000 94
So the mod clearly boosts the max pressure over what was possible with the stock system. The pressure difference at 3k rpm, 7 psi, is most likely from the switch from "5W-20" to "15W-40". I was reluctant to run 'full out' in the garage, but wonder what the 7k 8k an 9ish k numbers look like.
01-25-2010, 08:23 PM
#41
Registered
Did any of you discover (have) any of the foam (condensation) crap in your oil pans? Any evidence that their is more than just some in the dip stick tube.
Just wondering, thanks.
Just wondering, thanks.
01-26-2010, 12:50 AM
#44
There is one thing that I noticed that I am not sure about; I get a weird buzzing sound from the engine, internally, on cold-starts (and I KNOW it is not the air pump). I wonder is the heightened oil pressure causes this.
The "10 PSI/1K RPMs" rule-of-thumb was generally for piston engines, which have higher bearing loads than rotaries do, due to their design. Besides, the rotor bearings are HUGE compared to the rod bearings on a piston engine.
Interesting point; Pro-Stock engines in the NHRA/INRA use Honda rod journal sizes and bearings, which are smaller than 2" in diameter.
01-26-2010, 04:34 AM
#46
Registered
No, I was very surprised when olddragger and I looked into the oil pan. I drive my car pretty hard and thought this may have contributed to a lack of milk. Mine is a daily driver and is tracked 9 months a year. I run 10w40 Dyno in the winter and 20w50 in the warmer months. I change my oil about every 2000 miles and less sometimes. Had a little milk at one point when I slowed my driving style down. Took that as a sign and kept my RPM's up.
01-26-2010, 07:13 AM
#47
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Probably not as I have been using Mazmart's OP mod since I rebuilt my engine way back when. I won't know, fershure, until I tear it down again. Raising the oil pressure is also a fairly universally-accepted/suggested mod in the rotary world, btw.
There is one thing that I noticed that I am not sure about; I get a weird buzzing sound from the engine, internally, on cold-starts (and I KNOW it is not the air pump). I wonder is the heightened oil pressure causes this.
The "10 PSI/1K RPMs" rule-of-thumb was generally for piston engines, which have higher bearing loads than rotaries do, due to their design. Besides, the rotor bearings are HUGE compared to the rod bearings on a piston engine.
Interesting point; Pro-Stock engines in the NHRA/INRA use Honda rod journal sizes and bearings, which are smaller than 2" in diameter.
There is one thing that I noticed that I am not sure about; I get a weird buzzing sound from the engine, internally, on cold-starts (and I KNOW it is not the air pump). I wonder is the heightened oil pressure causes this.
The "10 PSI/1K RPMs" rule-of-thumb was generally for piston engines, which have higher bearing loads than rotaries do, due to their design. Besides, the rotor bearings are HUGE compared to the rod bearings on a piston engine.
Interesting point; Pro-Stock engines in the NHRA/INRA use Honda rod journal sizes and bearings, which are smaller than 2" in diameter.
While I hope you engine lasts a while for you but I am anxiously awaiting your detailed tear down
01-26-2010, 11:51 AM
#48
both of these pan removals occured also after the oil was warmed some. One had driven a ways to get there. But, no there was not near the condensation that i saw in mine. Must have been my driving style and FI causing it. Since I have keep my oil temps up and taking longer drives to work--mine is now gone.
Some comments on the pics:
My finger (sorry I had cramps!) demonstates the level of oil left in the pan. The bottle represents the oil left in ONE pan after we removed it.
The picture that shows the rachet on the oil pan bolts is showing that you do NOT use much leverage when you tighten the oil pan bolts---they strip easily. Repeat tighten them slowly and without much leverage at all.
Damn I look old.
OD
Some comments on the pics:
My finger (sorry I had cramps!
) demonstates the level of oil left in the pan. The bottle represents the oil left in ONE pan after we removed it.The picture that shows the rachet on the oil pan bolts is showing that you do NOT use much leverage when you tighten the oil pan bolts---they strip easily. Repeat tighten them slowly and without much leverage at all.
Damn I look old.
OD
01-26-2010, 01:19 PM
#49
Registered
Denny, at some point, I'll get back to the pics and post comments. Too damn busy right now at work and when I get home, Mrs OMS is going to put my *** back to work.