Mazmarts oil pressure bypass install with some surprising findings!
10-04-2010, 06:28 AM
#226
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And how you increase oil pressure? Either you use a thicker oil which provides an increase in pressure and resistance that translates in a decrease in flow hence lubrication is inversely affected or you use Mazmart oil pressure bypass install.
So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.
So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.
10-04-2010, 06:33 AM
#227
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First off, the oil pressure present within the motor has nothing at all to do with the OMP system. OMP operates on fixed volume injection amounts which are handled by the PCM.
It's true that increasing the pressure of the oil system will do nothing for flow assuming everything is equal. The oil pump is a fixed displacement pump which pumps a specific volume of oil for a given RPM. Since pressure is resistance to flow we can easily say that any major increases in pressure will probably hinder flow in some way.
However, that being said we are not operating with an engine where all conditions are equal. The aspect that interests me the most is the pressure differential as oil moves through the motor. Pressure is necessary to move the oil as well as get it into the bearings. Any pressure beyond what is required to get oil into the bearings is wasted energy so there is certainly a point where excess pressure isn't doing anything for you.
Now, if conditions existed where oil pressure at the farthest areas of the motor from the pump was significantly lower than what would be required to provide maximum lubrication then increasing the pressure to compensate would obviously help. THAT is the aspect that most interests me.
It's true that increasing the pressure of the oil system will do nothing for flow assuming everything is equal. The oil pump is a fixed displacement pump which pumps a specific volume of oil for a given RPM. Since pressure is resistance to flow we can easily say that any major increases in pressure will probably hinder flow in some way.
However, that being said we are not operating with an engine where all conditions are equal. The aspect that interests me the most is the pressure differential as oil moves through the motor. Pressure is necessary to move the oil as well as get it into the bearings. Any pressure beyond what is required to get oil into the bearings is wasted energy so there is certainly a point where excess pressure isn't doing anything for you.
Now, if conditions existed where oil pressure at the farthest areas of the motor from the pump was significantly lower than what would be required to provide maximum lubrication then increasing the pressure to compensate would obviously help. THAT is the aspect that most interests me.
10-04-2010, 06:37 AM
#228
And how you increase oil pressure? Either you use a thicker oil which provides an increase in pressure and resistance that translates in a decrease in flow hence lubrication is inversely affected or you use Mazmart oil pressure bypass install.
So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.
So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.
Higher pressure also means that you need a stronger force applied to overcome the oil film that prevents the part from rubbing one against the other. At high rpms this translate to better bearing protection.
Increasing the pressure doesn't mean reducing the flow in this case, we have a fixed displacement chain drivine pump. Think of the oil system as a pressurized system (i know it isn't, the pressure fluctuates), you just change the peak pressure and the overall working pressures. The increased pressure doesn't translate to decreased flow in this case.
If your theory was correct, which isn't the case, an engine wouldn't last much with this kind of oil pressure mod since you practically DOUBLE the system's pressure.
(Damn Todd, you beat me to it!)
Last edited by bse50; 10-04-2010 at 06:40 AM.
10-04-2010, 06:42 AM
#229
Extraordinary Engineering
And how you increase oil pressure? Either you use a thicker oil which provides an increase in pressure and resistance that translates in a decrease in flow hence lubrication is inversely affected or you use Mazmart oil pressure bypass install.
So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.
So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.
No mod is made to the restriction of the system
Therefore all it does is limit the max pressure at a higher level than the stock unit
Please re-read https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=92
it's a great explanation of the benefits.
10-04-2010, 07:08 AM
#230
Registered
First off, the oil pressure present within the motor has nothing at all to do with the OMP system. OMP operates on fixed volume injection amounts which are handled by the PCM.
It's true that increasing the pressure of the oil system will do nothing for flow assuming everything is equal. The oil pump is a fixed displacement pump which pumps a specific volume of oil for a given RPM. Since pressure is resistance to flow we can easily say that any major increases in pressure will probably hinder flow in some way.
It's true that increasing the pressure of the oil system will do nothing for flow assuming everything is equal. The oil pump is a fixed displacement pump which pumps a specific volume of oil for a given RPM. Since pressure is resistance to flow we can easily say that any major increases in pressure will probably hinder flow in some way.
10-04-2010, 07:23 AM
#231
Registered
@ bse50
I understand what you are saying but the theory that I support it is not mine. It is the theory of Dr Hass. How can you increase pressure without increasing the resistance hence decreasing the flow? Think that in order to increase pressure you are using a thicker oil for building resistance or you are can narrow the oil circuit pipes.
I understand what you are saying but the theory that I support it is not mine. It is the theory of Dr Hass. How can you increase pressure without increasing the resistance hence decreasing the flow? Think that in order to increase pressure you are using a thicker oil for building resistance or you are can narrow the oil circuit pipes.
10-04-2010, 07:23 AM
#232
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RP, I think you're taking a single statement and trying to apply it to all instances. Clearly pressure is necessary in order for the oil to flow in the first place.
There's something to take notice of that previous generations of the rotary had higher pressure and the fact that the S2 operates with higher pressure is something to note. However the reasons why can only be speculated.
I'm not totally convinced that seriously high pressures (say north of 110 psi) are really necessary. I think a small bump could help ensure that oil is being delivered in all areas but 40 or 50 psi above stock does seem rather excessive to me.
I can say that after BHR broke down my motor with 109k miles on it that various parts including the main bearings are in great shape considering the mileage and abuse the motor took. I don't think there is any harm in leaving your pressure at the stock level but I can't see a bump of 20 psi or so as a negative effect.
I'd say I also debunked the notion that 20w-50 is the only solution to long engine life but as Ray says, that's a whole other radio show.
There's something to take notice of that previous generations of the rotary had higher pressure and the fact that the S2 operates with higher pressure is something to note. However the reasons why can only be speculated.
I'm not totally convinced that seriously high pressures (say north of 110 psi) are really necessary. I think a small bump could help ensure that oil is being delivered in all areas but 40 or 50 psi above stock does seem rather excessive to me.
I can say that after BHR broke down my motor with 109k miles on it that various parts including the main bearings are in great shape considering the mileage and abuse the motor took. I don't think there is any harm in leaving your pressure at the stock level but I can't see a bump of 20 psi or so as a negative effect.
I'd say I also debunked the notion that 20w-50 is the only solution to long engine life but as Ray says, that's a whole other radio show.
10-04-2010, 07:28 AM
#233
Registered
As you can see the example below the pressure is increasing at 3000rpm ! It is almost the same as using a thicker oil .
Before Install:
750 RPM =25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 50 lbs
4000 RPM = ?
5000 RPM = 74 lbs with 75 being max.
After Install:
750 RPM = 25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 78 lbs
4000 RPM =100
5000 RPM = 110 lbs +/- ? (pegged the gauge)
Before Install:
750 RPM =25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 50 lbs
4000 RPM = ?
5000 RPM = 74 lbs with 75 being max.
After Install:
750 RPM = 25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 78 lbs
4000 RPM =100
5000 RPM = 110 lbs +/- ? (pegged the gauge)
10-04-2010, 07:31 AM
#234
Registered
Anyway how can someone prove the benefits of increased oil pressure using the Mazmart mod? I know that it is difficult to prove such a task but you need to compare a stock pressure engine with Mazmart mod engine in the long run in order to see how this increase helps your engine.
I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?
I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?
Last edited by rotaryPilot; 10-04-2010 at 07:34 AM.
10-04-2010, 07:39 AM
#235
Anyway how can someone prove the benefits of increased oil pressure using the Mazmart mod? I know that it is difficult to prove such a task but you need to compare a stock pressure engine with Mazmart mod engine in the long run in order to see how this increase helps your engine.
I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?
I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?
I have it and like it, everythng runs "smoother" at higher rpms but since that's just a feeling there's no need to discuss it any further.
As for all your previous posts: Pressure is resistance to flow, ok.
What happens when you have a pump that is designed to flow a certain amount of oil in a certain amount of time\rpms? The pump will still flow about the same or break
Another thing to consider is the way how a bypass works in reducing the pressure imho, we're not talking about restrictions here but about some kind of "relief" valves.
10-04-2010, 07:41 AM
#236
Extraordinary Engineering
Since all it does is raise the limit for oil pressure and is independent of your oil viscosity choice I can't see any down side. (I'm running 5w30)
The oil flow at any given oil viscosity will be identical up to the point where the stock valve will bleed pressure. Above that point the MM mod will flow more oil with higher pressure.
My only worry was leakage due to higher pressure but so far so good.
The oil flow at any given oil viscosity will be identical up to the point where the stock valve will bleed pressure. Above that point the MM mod will flow more oil with higher pressure.
My only worry was leakage due to higher pressure but so far so good.
10-04-2010, 07:45 AM
#237
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Anyway how can someone prove the benefits of increased oil pressure using the Mazmart mod? I know that it is difficult to prove such a task but you need to compare a stock pressure engine with Mazmart mod engine in the long run in order to see how this increase helps your engine.
I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?
I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?
Does it work? Hard to say in my opinion. Damage from improper lubrication (with exceptions) takes quite a long time to manifest itself. The issue of crankcase lubrication has never really been an issue and I've not heard of any sizable amount of engines failing because of seized or failed bearings. All the engine deaths in mass have been from lack of OMP volume causing excessive seal wear. That is a whole different animal.
10-04-2010, 08:59 AM
#239
"Dont outsmart your common sense."
One of my favorite lines in a song I heard recently.
Oil lubrication systems in engines are basically open systems--not closed. There are restrictions in the systems to maintain a certain pressure so that the pressure will never get too low.
Dr Hass--being a medical man is highly educated in closed system flow--thats what our bobies use. But in open system these "facts" are not true.
If you think we dont have an open system, then explain how the oil gets into the rotors? Or do people believe the rotors stay full of oil all the time?
In an open system-- BASICALLY SPEAKIN - the more pressure, the greater the flow.
Our engine's lubrication system is more complicated than this, but basically you can believe that there are 2 ways to increase flow, no matter what the viscosity of the oil is.
1- enlarge the oil passages, increase clearances and install a larger volume pump (if needed)
2- increase the pressure (this is true up to a certain limit) as long as you dont cause pump cavitation etc. There is no pump cavitation at the pressures this mod gives and our oem pump
yall are aware that the s2 IDLE oil pressure is in the 40-50's with 5/20? same oil pump we have.
Another point:
Viscosity in itself can be thought of as "more". Which has the largest amount of oil?
5 cc's of 20 wgt oil--or
5 cc's of 40 wgt oil?
Yes there is more mass in the 40 wgt oil-----very, very, very small amount, but non the less --more. So technically speaking increasing the viscosity can increase the amount of oil that is being pumped by a fixed volume pump.
Head hurt yet?
Now you know why I like that statement in that song.
OD
One of my favorite lines in a song I heard recently.
Oil lubrication systems in engines are basically open systems--not closed. There are restrictions in the systems to maintain a certain pressure so that the pressure will never get too low.
Dr Hass--being a medical man is highly educated in closed system flow--thats what our bobies use. But in open system these "facts" are not true.
If you think we dont have an open system, then explain how the oil gets into the rotors? Or do people believe the rotors stay full of oil all the time?
In an open system-- BASICALLY SPEAKIN - the more pressure, the greater the flow.
Our engine's lubrication system is more complicated than this, but basically you can believe that there are 2 ways to increase flow, no matter what the viscosity of the oil is.
1- enlarge the oil passages, increase clearances and install a larger volume pump (if needed)
2- increase the pressure (this is true up to a certain limit) as long as you dont cause pump cavitation etc. There is no pump cavitation at the pressures this mod gives and our oem pump
yall are aware that the s2 IDLE oil pressure is in the 40-50's with 5/20? same oil pump we have.
Another point:
Viscosity in itself can be thought of as "more". Which has the largest amount of oil?
5 cc's of 20 wgt oil--or
5 cc's of 40 wgt oil?
Yes there is more mass in the 40 wgt oil-----very, very, very small amount, but non the less --more. So technically speaking increasing the viscosity can increase the amount of oil that is being pumped by a fixed volume pump.
Head hurt yet?
Now you know why I like that statement in that song.
OD
Last edited by olddragger; 10-04-2010 at 09:02 AM.
10-04-2010, 11:06 AM
#241
*sigh*
oil pressure modification(increasing that is) is nothing new for Rotary engines.
Its just that most people in the 8 community are "first time" Rotary owners (myself included) so this mod "seems" to be something new and revolutionary for them.
Ever since I got my FC last June, I did numerous research on the whole Rotary Engine history and oil mod is pretty common in all Rotary engines. Especially the FC family.
funny thing is that it took Mazda 20-30 f-ing years to "finally" increase the oil pressure to something more reasonable like what they're doing in the S2 of the RX-8. I mean I like the idea of if it ain't broke don't fix it, but Rotary engine has a long *** history of "not enough oil pressure" and everybody in the older RX world knows it. im just shock that it still took so many damn years b4 Mazda finally "oh, **** we screwed up" and do something about it, sheesh.
oil pressure modification(increasing that is) is nothing new for Rotary engines.
Its just that most people in the 8 community are "first time" Rotary owners (myself included) so this mod "seems" to be something new and revolutionary for them.
Ever since I got my FC last June, I did numerous research on the whole Rotary Engine history and oil mod is pretty common in all Rotary engines. Especially the FC family.
funny thing is that it took Mazda 20-30 f-ing years to "finally" increase the oil pressure to something more reasonable like what they're doing in the S2 of the RX-8. I mean I like the idea of if it ain't broke don't fix it, but Rotary engine has a long *** history of "not enough oil pressure" and everybody in the older RX world knows it. im just shock that it still took so many damn years b4 Mazda finally "oh, **** we screwed up" and do something about it, sheesh.
Last edited by nycgps; 10-04-2010 at 11:10 AM.
10-04-2010, 11:25 AM
#243
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yeah I would love to hear an explanation from a rotary engineer about the changes made to the series II Renesis.
What do you mean 90 degree oil?
What do you mean 90 degree oil?
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 10-04-2010 at 11:34 AM.
10-04-2010, 11:34 AM
#244
you gotta do this
to them and they might tell you.my opinion is that S2 is just a test bed for their next design. they can't just release a design and expect no issues ever. and its better to release new design piece by piece to check and see if there are any longevity issues with it. they know even with the Facelift/redesign RX-8 will not sell like hot cakes, but couple hundred/thousand more "in field" tester should be able to generate enough data/feedback for their new system.
but meh, what do I know
Last edited by nycgps; 10-04-2010 at 11:38 AM.
10-04-2010, 11:38 AM
#245
Registered
Well Dr Hass explains very good the concept of pressure and flow. I guess I should have read the rest of his chapters in order to understand pressure, flow and lubrication !!!!
The guy is unbelievable. his chapters are for seminars
a knowledgeable automotive enthusiast said the following
I give you the following example to help visualize what is happening with motor oil. This assumes the oil has no internal resistance. In actuality doubling the pressure will not double the flow but will be slightly less. And thicker oils have more resistance than thinner oils for all situations. But simplified we get the following:
For a 30 grade oil at operating temperature:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....1
2,000......40 PSI....2
4,000......80 PSI....4
8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
For a 30 grade oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1.5
2,000......60 PSI....3
4,000....120 PSI....6 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
8,000... 240 PSI....12
If we stick with the same grade oil and increase the oil pump output we will increase the pressure and the oil flow too. If we double the oil pump output we will double the pressure and we will double the oil flow (in an ideal system). But we are always limited by the oil relief valve:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......40 PSI....2
2,000......80 PSI....4
4,000....160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
8,000... 320 PSI....16
Let us compare a 40 grade oil at operating temperature:
The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow (baseline engine).
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1
2,000......60 PSI....2
4,000....120 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
8,000....240 PSI....8
For a 40 grade oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......45 PSI....1.5
2,000......90 PSI....3 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
4,000....180 PSI....6
8,000... 360 PSI....12
For a 40 grade oil at operating temperature
with the original pressures:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....0.5
2,000......40 PSI....1
4,000......80 PSI....2
8,000... 160 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
Increasing the pressure while using the same oil will increase the oil flow but increasing the pressure by increasing the oil thickness will result in less flow. It takes more pressure to move a thicker oil. When you go to a thicker oil the pressure goes up because of the increased resistance, and therefore reduction of flow. Because the pressure is higher sooner, the relief valve cuts in sooner. Flow will actually be less when the RPM is up and the flow is needed the most.
There is more to these graphs but I will continue with the next chapter.
Furthermore, in review, pressure does not equal lubrication. Let us look again at a single closed “lifetime lubricated” bearing. We could hook up a system to pressurize the bearing. This can actually be done. We could have the oil at ambient pressure. We could then double, triple, quadruple the pressure of the oil. The oil is non-compressible. Regardless of the pressure we would have the exact same lubrication, that of the ambient pressure lubrication.
The physics of lubrication as I said earlier show a 1:1 relationship of flow to separation pressure. Lubrication itself is pressure independent. I will not go into the mathematical equations for this.
Even water can be used as a lubricant. This is partly because of its high surface tension. It is used in many medical devices and other systems that are under or exposed to water. It is just that water rusts metal parts making this unsuitable for automotive engines. It actually has a higher specific heat than oil. It can therefore carry away more heat than oil from bearing surfaces. In this respect water is a better lubricant than oil.
The guy is unbelievable. his chapters are for seminars
a knowledgeable automotive enthusiast said the following
“Pressure and flow are tied together with viscosity, but none have anything to do with lubrication. Lubrication is a property of the fluid, not the force. The oil pump would pump water just as well, but it would offer no real lubrication. If we double the pressure, we double the flow. If you decrease the viscosity to a lighter oil, you increase flow at a loss of pressure. High flow helps to carry away more heat. High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings out of contact with each other (scuffing).”
For a 30 grade oil at operating temperature:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....1
2,000......40 PSI....2
4,000......80 PSI....4
8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
For a 30 grade oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1.5
2,000......60 PSI....3
4,000....120 PSI....6 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
8,000... 240 PSI....12
If we stick with the same grade oil and increase the oil pump output we will increase the pressure and the oil flow too. If we double the oil pump output we will double the pressure and we will double the oil flow (in an ideal system). But we are always limited by the oil relief valve:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......40 PSI....2
2,000......80 PSI....4
4,000....160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
8,000... 320 PSI....16
Let us compare a 40 grade oil at operating temperature:
The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow (baseline engine).
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1
2,000......60 PSI....2
4,000....120 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
8,000....240 PSI....8
For a 40 grade oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......45 PSI....1.5
2,000......90 PSI....3 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
4,000....180 PSI....6
8,000... 360 PSI....12
For a 40 grade oil at operating temperature
with the original pressures:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....0.5
2,000......40 PSI....1
4,000......80 PSI....2
8,000... 160 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
Increasing the pressure while using the same oil will increase the oil flow but increasing the pressure by increasing the oil thickness will result in less flow. It takes more pressure to move a thicker oil. When you go to a thicker oil the pressure goes up because of the increased resistance, and therefore reduction of flow. Because the pressure is higher sooner, the relief valve cuts in sooner. Flow will actually be less when the RPM is up and the flow is needed the most.
There is more to these graphs but I will continue with the next chapter.
Furthermore, in review, pressure does not equal lubrication. Let us look again at a single closed “lifetime lubricated” bearing. We could hook up a system to pressurize the bearing. This can actually be done. We could have the oil at ambient pressure. We could then double, triple, quadruple the pressure of the oil. The oil is non-compressible. Regardless of the pressure we would have the exact same lubrication, that of the ambient pressure lubrication.
The physics of lubrication as I said earlier show a 1:1 relationship of flow to separation pressure. Lubrication itself is pressure independent. I will not go into the mathematical equations for this.
Even water can be used as a lubricant. This is partly because of its high surface tension. It is used in many medical devices and other systems that are under or exposed to water. It is just that water rusts metal parts making this unsuitable for automotive engines. It actually has a higher specific heat than oil. It can therefore carry away more heat than oil from bearing surfaces. In this respect water is a better lubricant than oil.
10-04-2010, 11:41 AM
#248
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10-04-2010, 11:43 AM
#249
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rotaryPilot it looks to me like you are trying to boil this down to a 2 variable system, pressure and flow. There are a lot more variables involved. Lets complicate the model by adding force (i.e. that provided by the oil pump). If you increase pressure you can keep the same flow if the force is increased as well. A fixed displacement oil pump like we have will do this as long as the force required remains within the pump's operating spec. Now if you think about using a super heavy oil like a 90 weight, it would not be possible, because the pump would not be able to provide the force to generate the required flow.
10-04-2010, 11:43 AM
#250
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90 weight, or do you mean straight 90? I have ran heavier oils and honestly it did not seem to affect oil pressure at all so I settled on 5W-40. Straight grade oil an only be used when the vehicle operates in a constant temperature.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 10-04-2010 at 11:51 AM.