Lets look at expo1's over 100K renesis motor
05-24-2008, 04:55 PM
#451
This is a hunch, a guess, mere speculation: Mazda may not have green-lighted the RX8 in the first place if they didn't achieve certain goals for fuel mileage.
I've heard interesting things said about the scramble to comply with standards and the resultant re-flashes that may have messed with some of the potential fuel mileage. By this time they were already in production and soon selling around 2500 units a month stateside alone. Of course over time we saw that erode with the flooding and true real world fuel mileage coming to light.
Paul.
I've heard interesting things said about the scramble to comply with standards and the resultant re-flashes that may have messed with some of the potential fuel mileage. By this time they were already in production and soon selling around 2500 units a month stateside alone. Of course over time we saw that erode with the flooding and true real world fuel mileage coming to light.
Paul.
05-26-2008, 07:02 AM
#452
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They aren't thinking in terms of "327 cars per month". They are thinking in total production of ALL of their cars regardless of model. It's an all or nothing deal. I hate to say it but we are nothing special. Think BIG PICTURE and yes those lowly 327 do in fact add in over time. The last full business year Mazda sold 1.3 MILLION cars!!! My example was only on roughly 20% of that total.
total RX8 production in japan: 162000 units up to march 2007
http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline...07/pdf/p40.pdf
906000 mazda passenger cars produced for the whole of 2006 in japan
look for 2008 updates here: http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline/library.html
mazmart paul, thanks for the great thread !!!
dear RG, with all due respect,
mazda has been using 20W-50 oil for the last 20 years allright, but doesn't the fact that the FC & FD's were turbos matter and renesis is N/A ?
question for everybody:
i understand the controversy due to the fact that mazda put everybody on 5-20 in the states (we use 5-30 in greece) but how come no-one emphasizes the need for correct oil intervals (3500 miles/5000 klm) and everything revolves around correct oil weight / brand ?
05-26-2008, 07:03 AM
#453
05-26-2008, 09:43 AM
#454
im glad i will contribute sth to this topic!!!
total RX8 production in japan: 162000 units up to march 2007
http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline...07/pdf/p40.pdf
906000 mazda passenger cars produced for the whole of 2006 in japan
look for 2008 updates here: http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline/library.html
mazmart paul, thanks for the great thread !!!
dear RG, with all due respect,
mazda has been using 20W-50 oil for the last 20 years allright, but doesn't the fact that the FC & FD's were turbos matter and renesis is N/A ?
question for everybody:
i understand the controversy due to the fact that mazda put everybody on 5-20 in the states (we use 5-30 in greece) but how come no-one emphasizes the need for correct oil intervals (3500 miles/5000 klm) and everything revolves around correct oil weight / brand ?
total RX8 production in japan: 162000 units up to march 2007
http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline...07/pdf/p40.pdf
906000 mazda passenger cars produced for the whole of 2006 in japan
look for 2008 updates here: http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline/library.html
mazmart paul, thanks for the great thread !!!
dear RG, with all due respect,
mazda has been using 20W-50 oil for the last 20 years allright, but doesn't the fact that the FC & FD's were turbos matter and renesis is N/A ?
question for everybody:
i understand the controversy due to the fact that mazda put everybody on 5-20 in the states (we use 5-30 in greece) but how come no-one emphasizes the need for correct oil intervals (3500 miles/5000 klm) and everything revolves around correct oil weight / brand ?
05-26-2008, 10:30 AM
#455
im glad i will contribute sth to this topic!!!
total RX8 production in japan: 162000 units up to march 2007
http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline...07/pdf/p40.pdf
906000 mazda passenger cars produced for the whole of 2006 in japan
look for 2008 updates here: http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline/library.html
mazmart paul, thanks for the great thread !!!
dear RG, with all due respect,
mazda has been using 20W-50 oil for the last 20 years allright, but doesn't the fact that the FC & FD's were turbos matter and renesis is N/A ?
question for everybody:
i understand the controversy due to the fact that mazda put everybody on 5-20 in the states (we use 5-30 in greece) but how come no-one emphasizes the need for correct oil intervals (3500 miles/5000 klm) and everything revolves around correct oil weight / brand ?
total RX8 production in japan: 162000 units up to march 2007
http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline...07/pdf/p40.pdf
906000 mazda passenger cars produced for the whole of 2006 in japan
look for 2008 updates here: http://www.mazda.com/profile/outline/library.html
mazmart paul, thanks for the great thread !!!
dear RG, with all due respect,
mazda has been using 20W-50 oil for the last 20 years allright, but doesn't the fact that the FC & FD's were turbos matter and renesis is N/A ?
question for everybody:
i understand the controversy due to the fact that mazda put everybody on 5-20 in the states (we use 5-30 in greece) but how come no-one emphasizes the need for correct oil intervals (3500 miles/5000 klm) and everything revolves around correct oil weight / brand ?
In defense of RG, I think I've seen him say he doesn't mind 0W and 5W oils but his preference would be syn multigrades that would be 40 or 50 in the typical 100 def F that viscosity is checked at.
My personal angle is that the new motors see closer stresses to their turbocharged descendants than any production rotary has ever seen due to compression ratios and rpm.
I'm glad that you've brought up change intervals. This is another topic that we'll have to hit here soon.
Thanks Claus,
Paul.
05-26-2008, 01:41 PM
#456
Well I just spent a whole hour reading this...
Learned a lot, thanks everyone!
So speaking of change intervals, can the rotary develop sludge and what does that have to do with the oil grade?
I change mine often (non-syn) since it is dusty around here, but do some of you guys run your synthetics 5k or more?
Learned a lot, thanks everyone!
So speaking of change intervals, can the rotary develop sludge and what does that have to do with the oil grade?
I change mine often (non-syn) since it is dusty around here, but do some of you guys run your synthetics 5k or more?
05-26-2008, 03:52 PM
#457
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It's obvious that the car is capable of hitting mileage that is outside the warranty period. That's all that counts to them. They will sacrifice everything else to get fuel mileage figures up as much as possible as long as the average vehicle will get passed the warranty period. If 5W30 or 10W40 could take the car farther without issue but do it at even the slightest expense of fuel economy, they aren't going to recommend it due to the sheer numbers of vehicles they sell. Don't believe they will tell us what is good for the car. They won't. They'll tell us what they want us to believe and that is based on what is best for them and not us.
05-26-2008, 04:13 PM
#458
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05-26-2008, 04:24 PM
#459
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The final assessment is.............
Flat housings- Very good shape. Very little wear. Probably due to pre-mix and good quality oil.
Rotors- Decent shape although a lot of carbon was present. Possibly due to level of enrichment of air fuel ratio, a little too much pre-mix...........
In summary............. Some minor things could have been done differently in maintenance. I would back off the pre-mix by one ounce per gallon perhaps.
Paul.
Flat housings- Very good shape. Very little wear. Probably due to pre-mix and good quality oil.
Rotors- Decent shape although a lot of carbon was present. Possibly due to level of enrichment of air fuel ratio, a little too much pre-mix...........
In summary............. Some minor things could have been done differently in maintenance. I would back off the pre-mix by one ounce per gallon perhaps.
Paul.
I assume you mean one ounce per tank, but do you really have detailed enough data to suggest that fine an adjustment? The other end of the spectrum is a comment made by MM in, I believe, the pre-mix thread, who said that anything as low as 3 oz per tank was next to worthless.
05-26-2008, 04:31 PM
#460
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In America? The throw away society? Long term car ownership is not nearly as common here as it is elsewhere. Here 2-4 years is pretty standard. That being said, most people are ignorant to what causes vehicles to fail. It's usually just chalked up to being "old" or "worn out" and it's funny how companies have lulled us into thinking that's reasonable. There are constant improvements being made in manufacturing and design, yet engines of today are no more durable (if both are properly maintained) than vehicles of yesteryear... wonder why that is
05-26-2008, 04:37 PM
#461
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ok I must repectfully disagree. My best friend is a shop owner and knows his stuff. Cars may "wear out" because of other components at same intervals as years ago but it is not the engines. People sell/trade cars when trannys start slippimg or struts wear out...But engines today are much better in terms of longevity than 20yrs ago. Case in point, I recently returned from Mexico. I rode in a cab quite a bit. All american made, all 200k or more. We are not talking top of the line cars. I'm talking Ford Focus, Impallas, taurus. I asked where do they get theirs cars. All from the U.S. Just my views.
I wasn't bad mouthing American cars. I was talking about American society and engines in general regardless of where they're manufactured. Engines today are better at being mistreated than engines of 20 years ago, that's really the only difference.
05-26-2008, 04:38 PM
#462
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In America? The throw away society? Long term car ownership is not nearly as common here as it is elsewhere. Here 2-4 years is pretty standard. That being said, most people are ignorant to what causes vehicles to fail. It's usually just chalked up to being "old" or "worn out" and it's funny how companies have lulled us into thinking that's reasonable. There are constant improvements being made in manufacturing and design, yet engines of today are no more durable (if both are properly maintained) than vehicles of yesteryear... wonder why that is
05-26-2008, 04:56 PM
#463
rev44
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sorry BMONKEY I guess I misunderstood your point. Now Back to the great oil debate!
05-26-2008, 04:58 PM
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There is probably some validity to the first part of your statement, but I think today's engines are a lot more durable. Remember all those valve jobs, and ignition points, distributors etc. Hardly issues today. It is not uncommon for today's engines to exceed 200,000 miles with little in the way of maintenance or repairs, but that would have been considered a fairly significant achievement then. I guess it's all in your horizon -- I can see a long ways back!
05-26-2008, 06:48 PM
#466
I once e-mailed Mazda about synthetic oil and heavier weights, and while they would basically not comment on synthetic except that they don't recommend it, they said that heavier weights could be used. The response is a few months old, but this is what I got..
I personally have been using 5w20 Royal Purple, might go to 5w30 for summer though.
I personally have been using 5w20 Royal Purple, might go to 5w30 for summer though.
I e-mailed Mazda about using 5W-30 a while back, and the last response I receive was
I can only recomend that you use 5W-20 in the Rotary engine. If use of other oils contributes the the failure of a component then your warranty may be affected.
05-26-2008, 09:33 PM
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05-26-2008, 09:38 PM
#470
I know... I was just surprised the CSP that responded to Jasonawojo would actually say higher weight is okay but not synthetic... instead of sticking to the stupid 5W-20 like the one I got.
05-26-2008, 09:41 PM
#471
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Manufacturers will give recommendations as to what is in THEIR best interest, not ours as individuals. A measely 1% improvement is nothing for us as individuals. We don't really feel it. In greater numbers it becomes significant. People need to realize that what is written in the owners manual isn't necessarily there because it's in the best interest of longterm vehicle life. That has been weighed by the manufacturer vs the average warranty period, average vehicle life, average time of ownership, and a host of other things. Just because a manufacturer says to use 5W20 does not have to mean it is the best oil for the car. Just because Mazda says no to synthetics (officially. unofficially is another story altogether), does not mean that you can't or shouldn't use them. Manufacturer statements are more political, and financially based for THEM than any other reason including longevity of the vehicles.
It's obvious that the car is capable of hitting mileage that is outside the warranty period. That's all that counts to them. They will sacrifice everything else to get fuel mileage figures up as much as possible as long as the average vehicle will get passed the warranty period. If 5W30 or 10W40 could take the car farther without issue but do it at even the slightest expense of fuel economy, they aren't going to recommend it due to the sheer numbers of vehicles they sell. Don't believe they will tell us what is good for the car. They won't. They'll tell us what they want us to believe and that is based on what is best for them and not us.
Since individuals aren't really affected by such small gains or losses, go ahead and do what's best for YOU and YOUR CAR! Remember that after it's out of warranty, it's your responsibility to pay for it. Rotaries ran 20W50 until the Renesis came out. Don't be scared of a thicker oil. They've always done fine with it. Mazda isn't concerned about your long term engine life but you should be. Don't use what's in their best interest. Use what's in yours.
It's obvious that the car is capable of hitting mileage that is outside the warranty period. That's all that counts to them. They will sacrifice everything else to get fuel mileage figures up as much as possible as long as the average vehicle will get passed the warranty period. If 5W30 or 10W40 could take the car farther without issue but do it at even the slightest expense of fuel economy, they aren't going to recommend it due to the sheer numbers of vehicles they sell. Don't believe they will tell us what is good for the car. They won't. They'll tell us what they want us to believe and that is based on what is best for them and not us.
Since individuals aren't really affected by such small gains or losses, go ahead and do what's best for YOU and YOUR CAR! Remember that after it's out of warranty, it's your responsibility to pay for it. Rotaries ran 20W50 until the Renesis came out. Don't be scared of a thicker oil. They've always done fine with it. Mazda isn't concerned about your long term engine life but you should be. Don't use what's in their best interest. Use what's in yours.
05-26-2008, 10:41 PM
#472
and Synthetic thing could be found on *some* of the Rx-8's manual
Were they telling you the truth ? They did tell u the stuff in the service manual.
but Im sure I know more than the Customer service rep, why would I want to listen to their corporate bs ?
Last edited by nycgps; 05-26-2008 at 10:45 PM.
05-29-2008, 05:46 AM
#473
Ayrton Senna Forever
Maybe there is the reason of the bearings wear. Is it a possible reason? :
From RX-8 serv.man.
• An eccentric shaft bypass valve has been adopted to shorten the engine warm up period. The eccentric shaft bypass valve allows engine oil in the oil passage to escape at cold-engine start, maintaining a pressure in the eccentric shaft that prohibits injection of rotor cooling engine oil from the oil jet plugs until the engine is warmed up. See picture!
..so if you rev the engine when the oil temp under 140F, maybe sometimes there is not enough oil pressure for the bearings ( against metal to metal contact.), so there will be wearing out in long term.
From RX-8 serv.man.
• An eccentric shaft bypass valve has been adopted to shorten the engine warm up period. The eccentric shaft bypass valve allows engine oil in the oil passage to escape at cold-engine start, maintaining a pressure in the eccentric shaft that prohibits injection of rotor cooling engine oil from the oil jet plugs until the engine is warmed up. See picture!
..so if you rev the engine when the oil temp under 140F, maybe sometimes there is not enough oil pressure for the bearings ( against metal to metal contact.), so there will be wearing out in long term.
Last edited by ayrton012; 05-29-2008 at 09:08 AM.
05-29-2008, 08:47 AM
#474
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If manufacturers were so concerned with their reputations, they wouldn't pull out all the stops to use every excuse to try to void warranties. Mazda is terrible about this. I honestly don't think they care about overall long term engine reliability once that reliatbility is outside of their warranty period. What happens after that is your problem, not theirs. Engines don't need to be designed to last forever. They just need to last longer than the average car owner has it. Since most people in this country change cars every 6 years and average 16,000 miles a year, the engine really only needs to hit about 100,000 miles in it's life. At least from a manufacturers standpoint that's all you need to design it to do.
It is hot here. I use 5W30 in a first gen RX-7 which is supposed to use 20W50! My motor hasn't fallen apart yet.
05-29-2008, 11:13 AM
#475
If manufacturers were so concerned with their reputations, they wouldn't pull out all the stops to use every excuse to try to void warranties. Mazda is terrible about this. I honestly don't think they care about overall long term engine reliability once that reliatbility is outside of their warranty period. What happens after that is your problem, not theirs.
Not to start an argument, just to bring it to light, it seems there are more unscrupulous OEM's out there doing this than there are that stand up behind their product. Most everyone is looking out more for their bottom lines than for their (future, repeat) customers, so it seems.
Almost every OEM in the US that I know of participates in the wholly terrible practice of putting major warranty decisions in the hands of a single regional corporate rep, who's job is that of an insurance claims agent - mitigate losses.