How is an engine build for FI any different?
02-16-2011, 08:50 PM
#26
the fully balanced set is, cuz each rotor will weight slightly different, even if it has the same letter stamp, same thing for F&R weight.
like I said earlier the RB set is not that expensive if you count the price of a pair of brand new rotor & brand new f&r weight/counter weight.
No one said stock lifespan. 
There are ~600hp cars with stock S4 n/a blocks. I'm not counting ports as an internal engine modification as the point I'm trying to make relates to the strength of the parts (although I suspect you could probably do it with stock n/a ports while negatively affecting power band). I've been in one such car that's done ~15-20,000kms so far... on internals that had done ~240,000km previously.
What do you consider serious power? It's not a stretch to suggest that you can do 350-400hp reliably on a S4/S5 without any changes to the core engine. Seals aside, I don't see why the Renesis would be any worse as it has some advantages.
There are ~600hp cars with stock S4 n/a blocks. I'm not counting ports as an internal engine modification as the point I'm trying to make relates to the strength of the parts (although I suspect you could probably do it with stock n/a ports while negatively affecting power band). I've been in one such car that's done ~15-20,000kms so far... on internals that had done ~240,000km previously.What do you consider serious power? It's not a stretch to suggest that you can do 350-400hp reliably on a S4/S5 without any changes to the core engine. Seals aside, I don't see why the Renesis would be any worse as it has some advantages.
but sadly a lot of 13B's fundamental short comings are "still" here.
Not to mention the biggest difference between MSP and all prior Rotary is the exhaust port. This is one of the "biggest" issue to make serious power.
sure it did cut HC down by around 50%, it lowered the ultra loud exhaust noise so it can use less restrictive muffling material (Read : CHEAPER), improved the MPG by a tiny bit.
but if the exhaust stream has to take a 90 degree turn ... that will be (and its still is) a problem, the slower it exit, the less power you make.
ported exhaust port should be able to help this problem a bit. We just have to wait and see.
Last edited by nycgps; 02-16-2011 at 08:58 PM.
02-16-2011, 09:05 PM
#28
just re-use the stuff you have right now, take your engine apart, clean it nicely, then send it off to balance : rotors, f&r weight & FW & PP.
couple hundred bux should do.
or just let someone to handle the build & test work for you. a lot of people can do that + balancing.
02-16-2011, 09:06 PM
#29
I guess if you have it apart then why not ?
02-16-2011, 09:14 PM
#30
Nope.
None of the failures were initiated by anything inside of the motor. Not a one.
The detonation failures (2) were tuning (motor #1) and a wastegate line failure (motor #2). Nothing inside of the motor - not even unobtanium apex seals would have made any difference.
The bearing failures (motors #6 & #7) were just from using junk (and not paying attention).
Two of the other failures were cooling-related, which is all accessory parts.
One motor had an unidentified object go through it.
All of the things that have improved in the builds are techniques, not re-engineering or non-OE parts and are part of a proper NA build.
Mainly, use of a good sealant and hand-clearancing the side seals very tight.
None of the failures were initiated by anything inside of the motor. Not a one.
The detonation failures (2) were tuning (motor #1) and a wastegate line failure (motor #2). Nothing inside of the motor - not even unobtanium apex seals would have made any difference.
The bearing failures (motors #6 & #7) were just from using junk (and not paying attention).
Two of the other failures were cooling-related, which is all accessory parts.
One motor had an unidentified object go through it.
All of the things that have improved in the builds are techniques, not re-engineering or non-OE parts and are part of a proper NA build.
Mainly, use of a good sealant and hand-clearancing the side seals very tight.
Apex seals - well we've had that argument and there is no real proof one way or the other . But at least I feel better with bendy seals in .
Dowel land - as above
02-16-2011, 10:20 PM
#31
I've never had nor seen a dowel land fail for any of the above mentioned scenarios.
Breaking a dowel or tension bolt land is a result of improper torque or overheating.
The amount of engine torque output needed to break this is beyond the contemporary examples.
Breaking a dowel or tension bolt land is a result of improper torque or overheating.
The amount of engine torque output needed to break this is beyond the contemporary examples.
02-16-2011, 10:46 PM
#32
The second was a bit of a mystery - we 'relieved the dowell hole' on advice from a forum member and it broke the very first time i accelerated hard . - no misfire knock or any other calamity .
And like I said - i'm not the only one .
02-17-2011, 02:03 AM
#34
Well ................. thanks for that Captain Obvious 
Maybe it is , under ............."normal conditions " .
I was told it was a common occurance in older high power rotaries and there was this neat little trick some of the drag racing fraternity did to help prevent it . Knowing they knew more than I did , I went for it .
I was told it was a common occurance in older high power rotaries and there was this neat little trick some of the drag racing fraternity did to help prevent it . Knowing they knew more than I did , I went for it .
Last edited by Brettus; 02-17-2011 at 02:05 AM.
02-17-2011, 07:46 AM
#36
you don't need the RB set then.
just re-use the stuff you have right now, take your engine apart, clean it nicely, then send it off to balance : rotors, f&r weight & FW & PP.
couple hundred bux should do.
or just let someone to handle the build & test work for you. a lot of people can do that + balancing.
just re-use the stuff you have right now, take your engine apart, clean it nicely, then send it off to balance : rotors, f&r weight & FW & PP.
couple hundred bux should do.
or just let someone to handle the build & test work for you. a lot of people can do that + balancing.
I am glad you finally read OD's inquiry enough to realize what HE needed........
02-17-2011, 08:37 AM
#37
appreciate all the insight.
I was a little surprised no one mentioned lower compression rotors?
What MM has said is also very true. The engines peripherals are not to be ignored. But for this thread I was only focusing on the internals. It is reality other things that influence engine life epectancy are not consistantly perfect, temp spikes, slight fuel pressure changes, spark plug fouling, wire going bad, etc all can happen unexpectately even with race maintainence.
I was a little surprised no one mentioned lower compression rotors?
What MM has said is also very true. The engines peripherals are not to be ignored. But for this thread I was only focusing on the internals. It is reality other things that influence engine life epectancy are not consistantly perfect, temp spikes, slight fuel pressure changes, spark plug fouling, wire going bad, etc all can happen unexpectately even with race maintainence.
02-17-2011, 09:09 AM
#38
Jackson, there is a HUGE difference between yapping on the internet about all the parts you think are "cool" and necessary and giving people solid advice which is oriented toward their particular needs and reasonable budget. Once you start charging people money for your advice/labor and taking responsibility for the outcomes of your opinions, you will see what I mean.
I am glad you finally read OD's inquiry enough to realize what HE needed........
I am glad you finally read OD's inquiry enough to realize what HE needed........
all he ask was how to make it more reliable. so I just told him about all the good stuff.
02-17-2011, 09:11 AM
#39
appreciate all the insight.
I was a little surprised no one mentioned lower compression rotors?
What MM has said is also very true. The engines peripherals are not to be ignored. But for this thread I was only focusing on the internals. It is reality other things that influence engine life epectancy are not consistantly perfect, temp spikes, slight fuel pressure changes, spark plug fouling, wire going bad, etc all can happen unexpectately even with race maintainence.
I was a little surprised no one mentioned lower compression rotors?
What MM has said is also very true. The engines peripherals are not to be ignored. But for this thread I was only focusing on the internals. It is reality other things that influence engine life epectancy are not consistantly perfect, temp spikes, slight fuel pressure changes, spark plug fouling, wire going bad, etc all can happen unexpectately even with race maintainence.
02-17-2011, 09:17 AM
#40
Everybody has a budget and his has always been helped by his self-imposed redline of 8200 RPMs, about which he has posted for well over a year.
02-17-2011, 09:20 AM
#41
02-20-2011, 10:06 AM
#43
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Subscribed, are there any major internal differences to the series 2 core that would make it a better candidate for a FI build? I will be buying a second engine core to build for FI in the future and have heard the S2 Renesis have a significantly reduced failure rate?
Last edited by Dori Saru; 02-20-2011 at 10:14 AM.
02-20-2011, 10:49 AM
#44
Build an engine with fresh parts, good clearances\tolerances and you should be good to go unless your goal is a wild monster with a 20hrs engine life expectancy.
02-20-2011, 03:01 PM
#45
bse--afraid pre mix alone has been shown to not do the job with the renesis engine. Meyer racing--who has more hrs of data logging EVERTHING concerning this engine than anyone that I know off, has shown that without the omp the corner/side seals give it up much sooner. I have known Eric for a few years and he is **** about data collection and diagnosis's. He struggled for some time with why his fresh engines were losing power so soon. The omp lubricates the corner/side seals in a way that pre mix cant and this allows those areas to run cooler than with premix alone. Premix with the omp is the way to go with this one.
I am thinking--dont know for sure but the s2 model may not need pre mix.
The internal oil passages for the S2 are also different. If the s2 engine could be tuned-- i would go with one in a heartbeat.
I am thinking--dont know for sure but the s2 model may not need pre mix.
The internal oil passages for the S2 are also different. If the s2 engine could be tuned-- i would go with one in a heartbeat.
Last edited by olddragger; 02-20-2011 at 03:04 PM.
02-20-2011, 03:08 PM
#46
bse--afraid pre mix alone has been shown to not do the job with the renesis engine. Meyer racing--who has more hrs of data logging EVERTHING concerning this engine than anyone that I know off, has shown that without the omp the corner/side seals give it up much sooner. I have known Eric for a few years and he is **** about data collection and diagnosis's. He struggled for some time with why his fresh engines were losing power so soon. The omp lubricates the corner/side seals in a way that pre mix cant and this allows those areas to run cooler than with premix alone. Premix with the omp is the way to go with this one.
I am against the OMP removal as well, sorry if i was not explicative enough in my previous post Denny!
02-20-2011, 03:10 PM
#47
bse--afraid pre mix alone has been shown to not do the job with the renesis engine. Meyer racing--who has more hrs of data logging EVERTHING concerning this engine than anyone that I know off, has shown that without the omp the corner/side seals give it up much sooner. I have known Eric for a few years and he is **** about data collection and diagnosis's. He struggled for some time with why his fresh engines were losing power so soon. The omp lubricates the corner/side seals in a way that pre mix cant and this allows those areas to run cooler than with premix alone. Premix with the omp is the way to go with this one.
I am thinking--dont know for sure but the s2 model may not need pre mix.
The internal oil passages for the S2 are also different. If the s2 engine could be tuned-- i would go with one in a heartbeat.
I am thinking--dont know for sure but the s2 model may not need pre mix.
The internal oil passages for the S2 are also different. If the s2 engine could be tuned-- i would go with one in a heartbeat.
02-20-2011, 04:16 PM
#49
bse--afraid pre mix alone has been shown to not do the job with the renesis engine. Meyer racing--who has more hrs of data logging EVERTHING concerning this engine than anyone that I know off, has shown that without the omp the corner/side seals give it up much sooner. I have known Eric for a few years and he is **** about data collection and diagnosis's. He struggled for some time with why his fresh engines were losing power so soon. The omp lubricates the corner/side seals in a way that pre mix cant and this allows those areas to run cooler than with premix alone. Premix with the omp is the way to go with this one.
I am thinking--dont know for sure but the s2 model may not need pre mix.
The internal oil passages for the S2 are also different. If the s2 engine could be tuned-- i would go with one in a heartbeat.
I am thinking--dont know for sure but the s2 model may not need pre mix.
The internal oil passages for the S2 are also different. If the s2 engine could be tuned-- i would go with one in a heartbeat.
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