Good technical discussion about Engine Oils
07-21-2009, 06:50 PM
#101
For the record: We use Red Line 50 in our race engines presently and have used many viscosities throughout the years. The proof is in the pudding. The way you know what's working is to look at hundreds of engines and compare data as well as testing of oil samples to know what's deteriorating, what's failing etc. I haven't had the time and joy of completing the article as yet and strongly believe that I will learn much.
Know that not every race team runs the thinnest oil possible and not every team is looking for the last 3 hp. We build for longevity and some think we do the best job of it. Please ask Speed Source what oil they run when anyone get's a discreet moment to inquire.
Not everything that is in this technical writing is Holy Scripture nor is it all applicable to rotary engines. At the same time, what we run in our race car is not applicable to your street car.
Again: Just like anthropogenic Climate Change itself, when it's Government urging and mandating I would suggest you dig down until you find the REAL STORY.
Paul.
Know that not every race team runs the thinnest oil possible and not every team is looking for the last 3 hp. We build for longevity and some think we do the best job of it. Please ask Speed Source what oil they run when anyone get's a discreet moment to inquire.
Not everything that is in this technical writing is Holy Scripture nor is it all applicable to rotary engines. At the same time, what we run in our race car is not applicable to your street car.
Again: Just like anthropogenic Climate Change itself, when it's Government urging and mandating I would suggest you dig down until you find the REAL STORY.
Paul.
07-21-2009, 06:54 PM
#103
For the record: We use Red Line 50 in our race engines presently and have used many viscosities throughout the years. The proof is in the pudding. The way you know what's working is to look at hundreds of engines and compare data as well as testing of oil samples to know what's deteriorating, what's failing etc. I haven't had the time and joy of completing the article as yet and strongly believe that I will learn much.
Know that not every race team runs the thinnest oil possible and not every team is looking for the last 3 hp. We build for longevity and some think we do the best job of it. Please ask Speed Source what oil they run when anyone get's a discreet moment to inquire.
Not everything that is in this technical writing is Holy Scripture nor is it all applicable to rotary engines. At the same time, what we run in our race car is not applicable to your street car.
Again: Just like anthropogenic Climate Change itself, when it's Government urging and mandating I would suggest you dig down until you find the REAL STORY.
Paul.
Know that not every race team runs the thinnest oil possible and not every team is looking for the last 3 hp. We build for longevity and some think we do the best job of it. Please ask Speed Source what oil they run when anyone get's a discreet moment to inquire.
Not everything that is in this technical writing is Holy Scripture nor is it all applicable to rotary engines. At the same time, what we run in our race car is not applicable to your street car.
Again: Just like anthropogenic Climate Change itself, when it's Government urging and mandating I would suggest you dig down until you find the REAL STORY.
Paul.
Kindred spirits, Sir.
07-21-2009, 07:09 PM
#105
Paul.
07-21-2009, 08:04 PM
#106
jeezus, another long winded MFing engine oil thread 
/thread
For the record: We use Red Line 50 in our race engines presently and have used many viscosities throughout the years. The proof is in the pudding. The way you know what's working is to look at hundreds of engines and compare data as well as testing of oil samples to know what's deteriorating, what's failing etc. I haven't had the time and joy of completing the article as yet and strongly believe that I will learn much.
Know that not every race team runs the thinnest oil possible and not every team is looking for the last 3 hp. We build for longevity and some think we do the best job of it. Please ask Speed Source what oil they run when anyone get's a discreet moment to inquire.
Not everything that is in this technical writing is Holy Scripture nor is it all applicable to rotary engines. At the same time, what we run in our race car is not applicable to your street car.
Again: Just like anthropogenic Climate Change itself, when it's Government urging and mandating I would suggest you dig down until you find the REAL STORY.
Paul.
Know that not every race team runs the thinnest oil possible and not every team is looking for the last 3 hp. We build for longevity and some think we do the best job of it. Please ask Speed Source what oil they run when anyone get's a discreet moment to inquire.
Not everything that is in this technical writing is Holy Scripture nor is it all applicable to rotary engines. At the same time, what we run in our race car is not applicable to your street car.
Again: Just like anthropogenic Climate Change itself, when it's Government urging and mandating I would suggest you dig down until you find the REAL STORY.
Paul.
/thread
07-21-2009, 08:53 PM
#109
Super Moderator
it was just to kill the myth that race teams use uber thick oil...
in reality they use light straight weight oils with no detergents, no multigrade viscosity modifiers... basically not anything thats not needed in the next 5 hours since the additive packages are always the first to fail due to heat and not the oil.
in reality they use light straight weight oils with no detergents, no multigrade viscosity modifiers... basically not anything thats not needed in the next 5 hours since the additive packages are always the first to fail due to heat and not the oil.
Read on or above...please..
07-21-2009, 09:05 PM
#110
Super Moderator
Charles, I found some more information for you on 09 EMOP's, I am trying to find the text when engine is turned off, anyway....
"The PCM sends drive signals to the metering oil pump driver according to the engine operation conditions. The
metering oil pump driver receives the drive signals from the PCM, and switches the inner ground to supply
battery voltage to the metering oil pumps No.1 and No.2.
When the battery voltage is supplied by the metering oil pump driver, the main and sub plungers in the
metering oil pump move. The plungers return to the original position by spring force when the battery voltage is
not supplied.
When the battery voltage is not supplied, oil is suctioned to the space which is made by the plunger pulled by
spring force. At this point (suction stage), oil is not supplied to the oil nozzle because the check valve is closed.
When the battery voltage is supplied, the plunger moves (pops out) and pushes out the suctioned oil to the oil
nozzle side. Because the oil is pushed into the oil tube, the oil pressure in the oil tube increases, then the check
valve in the oil nozzle is open and the oil is discharged to the housing. (discharge stage)
In this way, the plunger moves within a certain distance and oil is suctioned and discharged repeatedly."
"The PCM sends drive signals to the metering oil pump driver according to the engine operation conditions. The
metering oil pump driver receives the drive signals from the PCM, and switches the inner ground to supply
battery voltage to the metering oil pumps No.1 and No.2.
When the battery voltage is supplied by the metering oil pump driver, the main and sub plungers in the
metering oil pump move. The plungers return to the original position by spring force when the battery voltage is
not supplied.
When the battery voltage is not supplied, oil is suctioned to the space which is made by the plunger pulled by
spring force. At this point (suction stage), oil is not supplied to the oil nozzle because the check valve is closed.
When the battery voltage is supplied, the plunger moves (pops out) and pushes out the suctioned oil to the oil
nozzle side. Because the oil is pushed into the oil tube, the oil pressure in the oil tube increases, then the check
valve in the oil nozzle is open and the oil is discharged to the housing. (discharge stage)
In this way, the plunger moves within a certain distance and oil is suctioned and discharged repeatedly."
07-21-2009, 09:09 PM
#111
Super Moderator
07-21-2009, 09:15 PM
#112
pretty normal for an Aussie 
anyhoo - I just went down to my oil store to see what they had .
The only 0w-xx oil they had was a 0w40 and the only SM spec was Mobil 1 5w50
Might settle for Castrol edge 5w30 which - ironically was the original oil I used when first bought the car 4 yrs ago HEH
anyhoo - I just went down to my oil store to see what they had .
The only 0w-xx oil they had was a 0w40 and the only SM spec was Mobil 1 5w50
Might settle for Castrol edge 5w30 which - ironically was the original oil I used when first bought the car 4 yrs ago HEH
Last edited by Brettus; 07-21-2009 at 09:19 PM.
07-21-2009, 09:40 PM
#113
Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear
By Blaine Ballentine, Central Petroleum Company
Conventional wisdom states that engine oils that increase fuel economy allow less friction and prolong engine life. The purpose of this article is to challenge conventional wisdom, particularly concerning modern (GF-3 ILSAC/API Starburst) engine oils.
Fuel Economy: Does Anyone Really Care?
First, we should face the fact that the American consumer does not appear to care too much about fuel economy. The No. 1 selling passenger vehicle is the Ford F-Series Pickup. Five of the top 10 best-selling vehicles are trucks, and trucks outsell cars. Some of the trucks are called sport-utility vehicles, otherwise known as SUVs, because their owners don’t want to admit they are trucks. The mass (size, weight) of these vehicles is not conducive to great fuel economy.
Additionally, consider how most vehicles are driven. Anyone accelerating slowly or driving at the speed limit to conserve energy is a danger to himself and other drivers who are in a much bigger hurry.
Auto manufacturers, on the other hand, are concerned about fuel economy. The manufacturer faces big fines if the fleet of cars it produces falls short of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements imposed upon them by the federal government.
Figure 1. Bearing Wear
The March to Thinner Oils
Thinner oils are being used these days for three reasons: They save fuel in test engines, the viscosity rules have changed, and manufacturers are recommending thinner grades.
The Sequence VI-B is the test used to evaluate fuel economy for the GF-3 specification. The VI-B test engine is fitted with a roller cam where the old Sequence VI test used a slider cam. The old Sequence VI test responded well to friction modifiers, but the Sequence VI-B responds to thinner oils.
The test oil’s fuel efficiency is compared to the fuel efficiency of a reference oil in the Sequence VI-B test. To pass, the test oil must improve fuel economy one to two percent, depending on viscosity grade. SAE 5W-20 must produce higher relative fuel efficiency than SAE 5W-30.
It is interesting to note that the reference oil is fully PAO synthetic SAE 5W-30. To qualify for the GF-3 Starburst, ordinary mineral oils had to beat the fuel economy of the full synthetic reference oil. (It seems there is more to fuel economy than a magic base oil.)
Another factor in fuel economy is temporary polymer shear. These polymers are additives known as viscosity index improvers (or modifiers). Polymers are plastics dissolved in oil to provide multiviscosity characteristics. Just as some plastics are tougher, more brittle or more heat-resistant than others, different polymers have different characteristics.
Polymers are huge molecules with many branches. As they are heated, they uncoil and spread out. The branches entangle with those of other polymer molecules and trap and control many tiny oil molecules. Therefore, a relatively small amount of polymer can have a huge effect on oil viscosity.
As oil is forced between a bearing and journal, many polymers have a tendency to align with each other, somewhat like nesting spoons. When this happens, viscosity drops. Then when the oil progresses through the bearing, the polymer molecules entangle again and viscosity returns to normal. This phenomenon is referred to as temporary shear.
Because the Sequence VI-B test responds to reductions in viscosity, oil formulators rely on polymer shear to pass the test. A shear stable polymer makes passing the GF-3 fuel economy test much more challenging.
New rules defining the cold-flow requirements of SAE viscosity grades (SAE J300) became effective in June 2001. The auto manufacturers were afraid that modern injection systems might allow the engine to start at temperatures lower than the oil could flow into the oil pump. Consequently, the new rules had a thinning effect on oil.
The auto manufacturers now recommend thinner oils for their vehicles than in the past. Years ago, SAE 10W-40 was the most commonly recommended viscosity grade, later migrating to SAE 10W-30. SAE 5W-30 is most popular now, but Ford and Honda recommend SAE 5W-20. It is likely that more widespread adoption of SAE 5W-20 and other thin oils may occur to help comply with CAFE requirements.
Because of the change in cold-flow requirements and the fuel economy test pushing formulators toward the bottom of the viscosity grade, today’s SAE 10W-30 oils are more like yesterday’s (GF-1 spec) SAE 5W-30 oils. On top of that, there is a trend toward auto manufacturers recommending thinner grades. This seems ridiculous. SUVs and trucks, with their inherently less-efficient four-wheel drive and brick-wall aerodynamics, need powerful, gas-guzzling engines to move their mass around in a hurry. In response, auto manufacturers recommend using thin oils to save fuel. Incredible!
Viscosity and Wear
Thinner oils have less drag, and therefore less friction and wear. Right? Perhaps in the test engine or engines that experience normal operation. But somewhat thicker oils may offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling.
Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thicker oil films can accommodate larger contaminants.
Temperature has a big effect on viscosity and film thickness. As a point of reference, one SAE grade increase in viscosity is necessary to overcome the influence of a 20°F increase in engine temperature. At a given reference point, there is approximately a 20°F. difference between viscosity grades SAE 30, 40 and 50. SAE 20 is somewhat closer to 30 than the other jumps, because SAE 30 must be 30°F higher than SAE 20 to be roughly the equivalent viscosity.
In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multiviscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).
If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.
Ford is bumping up against its CAFE requirements and recommends SAE 5W-20 oil for most of its engines in the United States. It claims SAE 5W-20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.
To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?
Antiwear Property Changes
Another change that occurred in passenger car motor oils with GF-2 and GF-3 is a more stringent limit on phosphorus, which is part of the zinc phosphate (ZDDP) antiwear additive. The auto manufacturers are concerned that phosphorus will deposit on surfaces of the catalytic converter and shorten its life.
This is a complicated issue, and the deposits depend on the specific ZDDP chemistry and the finished oil formulation. The industry was unsuccessful in designing an engine test for an oil’s catalytic converter deposit forming tendencies. Therefore, the auto manufacturers set an arbitrary limit for motor oil of 0.1 percent phosphorus.
Antiwear additives are important in the absence of a hydrodynamic film, such as in the valve train. The antiwear additives are activated by frictional heat, which causes them to react with the hot surface and form a chemical barrier to wear.
The mechanism by which phosphorus deposits form on catalytic converter surfaces is not fully understood. It does not correlate directly with oil volatility or oil consumption. On the other hand, if engine wear causes oil consumption to increase, the risk of forming phosphorus deposits in the converter would increase dramatically. It seems that preventing wear and oil consumption should be a priority.
In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties.
Short-term Thinking
As wear increases, the efficiency of an engine declines. Valve train wear slightly changes valve timing and movement. Ring and liner wear affect compression. The wear hurts fuel efficiency and power output by an imperceptible amount at first, but then the difference in fuel economy between an SAE 10W-30 and SAE 5W-20 is hardly noticeable. Efficiency continues to decline as wear progresses. Perhaps optimizing wear protection is the way to reduce fuel consumption over the life of the engine.
Certainly engines that have experienced significant ring and liner wear benefit from thicker oils. Thicker oil use results in compression increases, performance improvements and reduced oil consumption.
High-mileage oils are a relatively new category of passenger car motor oils. These products typically contain more detergent/ dispersant and antiwear additives than new car oils. They typically contain a seal swell agent and are available in thicker viscosity grades than most new cars recommend. “High mileage” seems to be defined by “as soon as your car is out of warranty.”
Figure 2. Ring Wear
What To Use
Although thinner oils with less antiwear additive outperform more robust products in the 96-hour fuel economy test, it is not clear that such products save fuel over the useful life of the engine.
Every fluid is a compromise. Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty. Thicker oils also compromise cold temperature flow, which may be of concern depending upon climate and season.
The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W-30 or 15W-40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.
Please reference this article as:
By Blaine Ballentine, Central Petroleum Company, "Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear". Machinery Lubrication Magazine. July 2003
Use 15W-40 CI-4 Plus/ SL for the win
:
By Blaine Ballentine, Central Petroleum Company
Conventional wisdom states that engine oils that increase fuel economy allow less friction and prolong engine life. The purpose of this article is to challenge conventional wisdom, particularly concerning modern (GF-3 ILSAC/API Starburst) engine oils.
Fuel Economy: Does Anyone Really Care?
First, we should face the fact that the American consumer does not appear to care too much about fuel economy. The No. 1 selling passenger vehicle is the Ford F-Series Pickup. Five of the top 10 best-selling vehicles are trucks, and trucks outsell cars. Some of the trucks are called sport-utility vehicles, otherwise known as SUVs, because their owners don’t want to admit they are trucks. The mass (size, weight) of these vehicles is not conducive to great fuel economy.
Additionally, consider how most vehicles are driven. Anyone accelerating slowly or driving at the speed limit to conserve energy is a danger to himself and other drivers who are in a much bigger hurry.
Auto manufacturers, on the other hand, are concerned about fuel economy. The manufacturer faces big fines if the fleet of cars it produces falls short of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements imposed upon them by the federal government.
Figure 1. Bearing Wear
The March to Thinner Oils
Thinner oils are being used these days for three reasons: They save fuel in test engines, the viscosity rules have changed, and manufacturers are recommending thinner grades.
The Sequence VI-B is the test used to evaluate fuel economy for the GF-3 specification. The VI-B test engine is fitted with a roller cam where the old Sequence VI test used a slider cam. The old Sequence VI test responded well to friction modifiers, but the Sequence VI-B responds to thinner oils.
The test oil’s fuel efficiency is compared to the fuel efficiency of a reference oil in the Sequence VI-B test. To pass, the test oil must improve fuel economy one to two percent, depending on viscosity grade. SAE 5W-20 must produce higher relative fuel efficiency than SAE 5W-30.
It is interesting to note that the reference oil is fully PAO synthetic SAE 5W-30. To qualify for the GF-3 Starburst, ordinary mineral oils had to beat the fuel economy of the full synthetic reference oil. (It seems there is more to fuel economy than a magic base oil.)
Another factor in fuel economy is temporary polymer shear. These polymers are additives known as viscosity index improvers (or modifiers). Polymers are plastics dissolved in oil to provide multiviscosity characteristics. Just as some plastics are tougher, more brittle or more heat-resistant than others, different polymers have different characteristics.
Polymers are huge molecules with many branches. As they are heated, they uncoil and spread out. The branches entangle with those of other polymer molecules and trap and control many tiny oil molecules. Therefore, a relatively small amount of polymer can have a huge effect on oil viscosity.
As oil is forced between a bearing and journal, many polymers have a tendency to align with each other, somewhat like nesting spoons. When this happens, viscosity drops. Then when the oil progresses through the bearing, the polymer molecules entangle again and viscosity returns to normal. This phenomenon is referred to as temporary shear.
Because the Sequence VI-B test responds to reductions in viscosity, oil formulators rely on polymer shear to pass the test. A shear stable polymer makes passing the GF-3 fuel economy test much more challenging.
New rules defining the cold-flow requirements of SAE viscosity grades (SAE J300) became effective in June 2001. The auto manufacturers were afraid that modern injection systems might allow the engine to start at temperatures lower than the oil could flow into the oil pump. Consequently, the new rules had a thinning effect on oil.
The auto manufacturers now recommend thinner oils for their vehicles than in the past. Years ago, SAE 10W-40 was the most commonly recommended viscosity grade, later migrating to SAE 10W-30. SAE 5W-30 is most popular now, but Ford and Honda recommend SAE 5W-20. It is likely that more widespread adoption of SAE 5W-20 and other thin oils may occur to help comply with CAFE requirements.
Because of the change in cold-flow requirements and the fuel economy test pushing formulators toward the bottom of the viscosity grade, today’s SAE 10W-30 oils are more like yesterday’s (GF-1 spec) SAE 5W-30 oils. On top of that, there is a trend toward auto manufacturers recommending thinner grades. This seems ridiculous. SUVs and trucks, with their inherently less-efficient four-wheel drive and brick-wall aerodynamics, need powerful, gas-guzzling engines to move their mass around in a hurry. In response, auto manufacturers recommend using thin oils to save fuel. Incredible!
Viscosity and Wear
Thinner oils have less drag, and therefore less friction and wear. Right? Perhaps in the test engine or engines that experience normal operation. But somewhat thicker oils may offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling.
Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thicker oil films can accommodate larger contaminants.
Temperature has a big effect on viscosity and film thickness. As a point of reference, one SAE grade increase in viscosity is necessary to overcome the influence of a 20°F increase in engine temperature. At a given reference point, there is approximately a 20°F. difference between viscosity grades SAE 30, 40 and 50. SAE 20 is somewhat closer to 30 than the other jumps, because SAE 30 must be 30°F higher than SAE 20 to be roughly the equivalent viscosity.
In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multiviscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).
If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.
Ford is bumping up against its CAFE requirements and recommends SAE 5W-20 oil for most of its engines in the United States. It claims SAE 5W-20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.
To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?
Antiwear Property Changes
Another change that occurred in passenger car motor oils with GF-2 and GF-3 is a more stringent limit on phosphorus, which is part of the zinc phosphate (ZDDP) antiwear additive. The auto manufacturers are concerned that phosphorus will deposit on surfaces of the catalytic converter and shorten its life.
This is a complicated issue, and the deposits depend on the specific ZDDP chemistry and the finished oil formulation. The industry was unsuccessful in designing an engine test for an oil’s catalytic converter deposit forming tendencies. Therefore, the auto manufacturers set an arbitrary limit for motor oil of 0.1 percent phosphorus.
Antiwear additives are important in the absence of a hydrodynamic film, such as in the valve train. The antiwear additives are activated by frictional heat, which causes them to react with the hot surface and form a chemical barrier to wear.
The mechanism by which phosphorus deposits form on catalytic converter surfaces is not fully understood. It does not correlate directly with oil volatility or oil consumption. On the other hand, if engine wear causes oil consumption to increase, the risk of forming phosphorus deposits in the converter would increase dramatically. It seems that preventing wear and oil consumption should be a priority.
In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties.
Short-term Thinking
As wear increases, the efficiency of an engine declines. Valve train wear slightly changes valve timing and movement. Ring and liner wear affect compression. The wear hurts fuel efficiency and power output by an imperceptible amount at first, but then the difference in fuel economy between an SAE 10W-30 and SAE 5W-20 is hardly noticeable. Efficiency continues to decline as wear progresses. Perhaps optimizing wear protection is the way to reduce fuel consumption over the life of the engine.
Certainly engines that have experienced significant ring and liner wear benefit from thicker oils. Thicker oil use results in compression increases, performance improvements and reduced oil consumption.
High-mileage oils are a relatively new category of passenger car motor oils. These products typically contain more detergent/ dispersant and antiwear additives than new car oils. They typically contain a seal swell agent and are available in thicker viscosity grades than most new cars recommend. “High mileage” seems to be defined by “as soon as your car is out of warranty.”
Figure 2. Ring Wear
What To Use
Although thinner oils with less antiwear additive outperform more robust products in the 96-hour fuel economy test, it is not clear that such products save fuel over the useful life of the engine.
Every fluid is a compromise. Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty. Thicker oils also compromise cold temperature flow, which may be of concern depending upon climate and season.
The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W-30 or 15W-40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.
Please reference this article as:
By Blaine Ballentine, Central Petroleum Company, "Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear". Machinery Lubrication Magazine. July 2003
Use 15W-40 CI-4 Plus/ SL for the win
:
07-21-2009, 09:47 PM
#114
pretty normal for an Aussie
anyhoo - I just went down to my oil store to see what they had .
The only 0w-xx oil they had was a 0w40 and the only SM spec was Mobil 1 5w50
Might settle for Castrol edge 5w30 which - ironically was the original oil I used when first bought the car 4 yrs ago HEH
anyhoo - I just went down to my oil store to see what they had .
The only 0w-xx oil they had was a 0w40 and the only SM spec was Mobil 1 5w50
Might settle for Castrol edge 5w30 which - ironically was the original oil I used when first bought the car 4 yrs ago HEH
07-21-2009, 09:48 PM
#115
Super Moderator
More Charles..09 EMOP...
Operation timing
�� The PCM calculates the oil level required by the engine according to the engine operation conditions. When the
calculated value reaches the discharge amount, a drive signal is sent to the metering oil pump driver and the
metering oil pump operates (ON/OFF) to discharge oil.
Demand-oil amount
— The demand-oil amount is determined for metering oil pumps No.1 and No.2 respectively.
— The base flow amount, based on engine speed and engine load, is compared with the minimum flow
amount, based on the engine coolant temperature and intake air temperature, and the larger of the two
values is selected as the demand-oil amount.
Discharge amount
— The discharge amount is the oil amount injected from the center oil nozzle and side oil nozzles when
metering oil pump No.1 or No.2 operates once.
— The discharge amount is corrected according to battery positive voltage, the metering oil pump internal
pressure, and engine coolant temperature.
Ignition switch off function
�� Engine startability at cold temperatures is improved by discharging engine oil while the ignition is switched off.
�� If the engine is started with the coolant temperature lower than 20 ��C {68 ��F} and the ignition is switched off
with the coolant temperature lower than 60 ��C {140 ��F}, the PCM calculates the necessary oil amount based on
the coolant temperature. The PCM controls the metering oil pump driver until the engine rotation is completely
stopped.
OIL PRESSURE CONTROL OUTLINE [13B-MSP]
�� The amount of oil supplied to the metering oil pump is adjusted based on the engine operation conditions to
keep the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump constant.
�� Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil
passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.
Charles,
This is why I have been hearing MY EMOP discharging oil when I turn engine off, being Winter here my Coolant temps are below 60C, this happens every time, even after a 40 minute trip.
I wondered why I did not hear these "noises" when I bought my car in Summer, just was not sure?? old age!!!.....now I am sure.. this function only works for cold starts...to protect Apex Seals.
Operation timing
�� The PCM calculates the oil level required by the engine according to the engine operation conditions. When the
calculated value reaches the discharge amount, a drive signal is sent to the metering oil pump driver and the
metering oil pump operates (ON/OFF) to discharge oil.
Demand-oil amount
— The demand-oil amount is determined for metering oil pumps No.1 and No.2 respectively.
— The base flow amount, based on engine speed and engine load, is compared with the minimum flow
amount, based on the engine coolant temperature and intake air temperature, and the larger of the two
values is selected as the demand-oil amount.
Discharge amount
— The discharge amount is the oil amount injected from the center oil nozzle and side oil nozzles when
metering oil pump No.1 or No.2 operates once.
— The discharge amount is corrected according to battery positive voltage, the metering oil pump internal
pressure, and engine coolant temperature.
Ignition switch off function
�� Engine startability at cold temperatures is improved by discharging engine oil while the ignition is switched off.
�� If the engine is started with the coolant temperature lower than 20 ��C {68 ��F} and the ignition is switched off
with the coolant temperature lower than 60 ��C {140 ��F}, the PCM calculates the necessary oil amount based on
the coolant temperature. The PCM controls the metering oil pump driver until the engine rotation is completely
stopped.
OIL PRESSURE CONTROL OUTLINE [13B-MSP]
�� The amount of oil supplied to the metering oil pump is adjusted based on the engine operation conditions to
keep the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump constant.
�� Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil
passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.
Charles,
This is why I have been hearing MY EMOP discharging oil when I turn engine off, being Winter here my Coolant temps are below 60C, this happens every time, even after a 40 minute trip.
I wondered why I did not hear these "noises" when I bought my car in Summer, just was not sure?? old age!!!.....now I am sure.. this function only works for cold starts...to protect Apex Seals.
Last edited by ASH8; 07-21-2009 at 10:20 PM.
07-21-2009, 09:59 PM
#119
More Charles..09 EMOP...
Operation timing
�� The PCM calculates the oil level required by the engine according to the engine operation conditions. When the
calculated value reaches the discharge amount, a drive signal is sent to the metering oil pump driver and the
metering oil pump operates (ON/OFF) to discharge oil.
Demand-oil amount
— The demand-oil amount is determined for metering oil pumps No.1 and No.2 respectively.
— The base flow amount, based on engine speed and engine load, is compared with the minimum flow
amount, based on the engine coolant temperature and intake air temperature, and the larger of the two
values is selected as the demand-oil amount.
Discharge amount
— The discharge amount is the oil amount injected from the center oil nozzle and side oil nozzles when
metering oil pump No.1 or No.2 operates once.
— The discharge amount is corrected according to battery positive voltage, the metering oil pump internal
pressure, and engine coolant temperature.
Ignition switch off function
�� Engine startability at cold temperatures is improved by discharging engine oil while the ignition is switched off.
�� If the engine is started with the coolant temperature lower than 20 ��C {68 ��F} and the ignition is switched off
with the coolant temperature lower than 60 ��C {140 ��F}, the PCM calculates the necessary oil amount based on
the coolant temperature. The PCM controls the metering oil pump driver until the engine rotation is completely
stopped.
OIL PRESSURE CONTROL OUTLINE [13B-MSP]
�� The amount of oil supplied to the metering oil pump is adjusted based on the engine operation conditions to
keep the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump constant.
�� Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil
passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.
Charles,
This is why I have been hearing MY EMOP discharging oil when I turn engine off, being Winter here my Coolant temps are below 60C, this happen every time, even after a 40 minute trip.
I wondered why I did not hear these "noises" when I bought my car in Summer, just was not sure?? old age!!!.....now I am sure.. this function only works for cold starts...to protect Apex Seals.
Operation timing
�� The PCM calculates the oil level required by the engine according to the engine operation conditions. When the
calculated value reaches the discharge amount, a drive signal is sent to the metering oil pump driver and the
metering oil pump operates (ON/OFF) to discharge oil.
Demand-oil amount
— The demand-oil amount is determined for metering oil pumps No.1 and No.2 respectively.
— The base flow amount, based on engine speed and engine load, is compared with the minimum flow
amount, based on the engine coolant temperature and intake air temperature, and the larger of the two
values is selected as the demand-oil amount.
Discharge amount
— The discharge amount is the oil amount injected from the center oil nozzle and side oil nozzles when
metering oil pump No.1 or No.2 operates once.
— The discharge amount is corrected according to battery positive voltage, the metering oil pump internal
pressure, and engine coolant temperature.
Ignition switch off function
�� Engine startability at cold temperatures is improved by discharging engine oil while the ignition is switched off.
�� If the engine is started with the coolant temperature lower than 20 ��C {68 ��F} and the ignition is switched off
with the coolant temperature lower than 60 ��C {140 ��F}, the PCM calculates the necessary oil amount based on
the coolant temperature. The PCM controls the metering oil pump driver until the engine rotation is completely
stopped.
OIL PRESSURE CONTROL OUTLINE [13B-MSP]
�� The amount of oil supplied to the metering oil pump is adjusted based on the engine operation conditions to
keep the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump constant.
�� Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil
passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.
Charles,
This is why I have been hearing MY EMOP discharging oil when I turn engine off, being Winter here my Coolant temps are below 60C, this happen every time, even after a 40 minute trip.
I wondered why I did not hear these "noises" when I bought my car in Summer, just was not sure?? old age!!!.....now I am sure.. this function only works for cold starts...to protect Apex Seals.
07-21-2009, 10:16 PM
#121
Super Moderator
Yeah, I feel for you man.
So the PCM actually looks at coolant, load, RPM and AIR temp, not just Load and RPM as someone (no name know all) once abruptly told me. MMmm.
I am somewhat pissed off the Mazda did not do this from the Start with ALL RX-8's, for the sake of a few extra dollars much of the Reman hassles would probably not be in demand and their reputation would not have suffered.
I want to see the Rotary survive, all these remans are just the 1970's all over again., then it was coolant entry, I used to do all the warranty claims.
And NO the Carbon Apex seals were not worn out at 30K miles, it was coolant entry.
BTW, Castrol Edge has been here for at least 2 years...
So the PCM actually looks at coolant, load, RPM and AIR temp, not just Load and RPM as someone (no name know all) once abruptly told me.
MMmm.I am somewhat pissed off the Mazda did not do this from the Start with ALL RX-8's, for the sake of a few extra dollars much of the Reman hassles would probably not be in demand and their reputation would not have suffered.
I want to see the Rotary survive, all these remans are just the 1970's all over again., then it was coolant entry, I used to do all the warranty claims.
And NO the Carbon Apex seals were not worn out at 30K miles, it was coolant entry.
BTW, Castrol Edge has been here for at least 2 years...
07-21-2009, 10:30 PM
#122
Have been doing that before the engine failed.
This Reman engine is seeing premix since day 1
Hope for the best
It came out earlier this year for the US market. 
Mazda is trying to cover it up with the 100K warranty, but they cant deny the fact that lots of US-spec RX-8 has failed. dont forget there are tons of rx-8 owners out there will never notice their engine running low compression, it starts, it gets them from point A to point B. thats it.
not for the USA market. 
I dont buy Castrol except for the time that it was on sale at Autozone. got some 0w30(true synthetic) to use on my other/family cars.
This Reman engine is seeing premix since day 1
Hope for the best
And I am actually pretty sure Edge has been around a lot longer than 4 months - maybe not 4 years though .....
Yeah, I feel for you man.
So the PCM actually looks at coolant, load, RPM and AIR temp, not just Load and RPM as someone (no name know all) once abruptly told me. MMmm.
I am somewhat pissed off the Mazda did not do this from the Start with ALL RX-8's, for the sake of a few extra dollars much of the Reman hassles would probably not be in demand and their reputation would not have suffered.
I want to see the Rotary survive, all these remans are just the 1970's all over again., then it was coolant entry, I used to do all the warranty claims.
And NO the Carbon Apex seals were not worn out at 30K miles, it was coolant entry.
So the PCM actually looks at coolant, load, RPM and AIR temp, not just Load and RPM as someone (no name know all) once abruptly told me.
MMmm.I am somewhat pissed off the Mazda did not do this from the Start with ALL RX-8's, for the sake of a few extra dollars much of the Reman hassles would probably not be in demand and their reputation would not have suffered.
I want to see the Rotary survive, all these remans are just the 1970's all over again., then it was coolant entry, I used to do all the warranty claims.
And NO the Carbon Apex seals were not worn out at 30K miles, it was coolant entry.
BTW, Castrol Edge has been here for at least 2 years...
I dont buy Castrol except for the time that it was on sale at Autozone. got some 0w30(true synthetic) to use on my other/family cars.
07-21-2009, 11:20 PM
#124
3-wheeler
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Phoenix
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If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.
One thing to take into consideration is in this same situation you might find your temperatures wouldn't reach 260 degrees with a Xw-20. The reason being that increasing the flow of the oil due to a lower viscosity would result in more cooling capability with the oil.
I ran 20w-50 in my RX8 and when I switched to Mobile 1's 0w-30 I noticed an immediate 20 degree difference in temperatures across the range of the car. This is when I also discovered that my cooler thermostat is stuck open! Suddenly with the thinner oil I couldn't even get it to come up to operating temperature. It's no big deal during the summer but in the winter with temps of 140-160 degrees the oil isn't even fully warmed up while cruising.
The whole point is to choose an oil that works in your circumstances. A race car might need a xw-50 oil.
The other aspect I want to point out is the fact that you do not need to change oils for different seasons. I would use whatever your "winter" oil is all year round. You want an oil that flows best in your coldest climate but when it gets warmer that oil will be thinner than in summer. So, you'll have the added benefit of increased lubrication. If you bump from a 5w to a 10w in the summer, you're simply changing to a thicker oil at startup while both oils are 20 weight at operating temperature.
Last edited by Flashwing; 07-21-2009 at 11:23 PM.
07-21-2009, 11:23 PM
#125
just took this picture.
the middle one is pressure gauge.
- idle --- I will get around 200 +/-10 kPa.
- Max --- probably 630 kPa.
- lowest --- no less than 180 kPa.
This is with 20w50 Royal Purple. it has been in my car for around 1000 miles.
I had 0w30 Syntec early last summer (got it cheap), same car, same kind of filter. when the oil was new, I see around the same 200 kPa pressure. but after about 700 miles. it dropped to around 150. then at 1500 miles, it dropped down to around 110. the gauge's warning "default" settings is 100 kPa. and it kept beeping every time my car comes to a stop (cuz the pressure will go as low as 70 kPa)
so ... heavier oil ftw ?
Mazda's reference value is 350 kPa @ 100 Celsius @ 3000 rpm. Im around there, but just to be sure I will confirm it tomorrow morning.
Last edited by nycgps; 07-22-2009 at 07:07 AM.