Gas/Oil Premix Thread
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
Sorry but your analysis of synthetics is quite mistaken. Since I sell the stuff, I think I know what I am talking about. Basically, for road cars (not track) it doesn't make any difference synthetics or minerals, then you have to unscramble exactly what the synthetics are made from, because it's not as simple as you think.
I can tell you exactly why Mazda did not recommend synths for road cars, and it was not because of what happened in the 70's. What kills your engine eventually are the additives to either base oil. Too much of one and your engine is screwed, piston or otherwise. That's why manufacturer's work with oil companies to blend the optimum oils....don't be cynical about this, it's a fact!! Porsche, Mazda, MB BMW...all have optimum oil blends for the engine designs. Synths became popular in piston engines because of environmental issues, the rest was a by product!!
Then you get into the viscosity debate and how companies cook up that formula. Check out how that works sometime if you want, too lengthy to explain here. Then look at the flash points, (very significant for rotaries), ash...etc...etc..
You are also mistaken in saying Mazda "recommends" mineral over synths. Quite the opposite, they are VERY adamant about NOT using synths in the series2 Renesis, as I mentioned before, they state 3 times in the owners handbook...DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE SYNTHETIC OR SEMI SYNTHETIC OILS. Can it be any more clearer than that?? They did not say otherwise (to me at least) on my series 1, that's why I stayed away from it!
The "hot" debates that you refer to merely occur in these forums, because that's what forums do. You keep referring to the Mazda racing, but you have to realize that it's a totally different and temporary operating condition. With that kind of logic you should be using aviation grade synthetic designed for jet engines! Now, Mazda have their own synthetic, specially developed by Total, but only for sale in Japan...why. It's too expensive for the rest of us! The others available, allegedly developed for Rotaries, but not endorsed by Mazda are Trust & RE Amemiya, and then Idemitsu, (the Le Mans winner).
Now, despite vociferous disbelief to the contrary, the engine replacements Mazda undertook due to OMP and cat "failures" were all running on synthetic oils in hot climates! Not my statements, from Mazda forensics. Go figure...
I can tell you exactly why Mazda did not recommend synths for road cars, and it was not because of what happened in the 70's. What kills your engine eventually are the additives to either base oil. Too much of one and your engine is screwed, piston or otherwise. That's why manufacturer's work with oil companies to blend the optimum oils....don't be cynical about this, it's a fact!! Porsche, Mazda, MB BMW...all have optimum oil blends for the engine designs. Synths became popular in piston engines because of environmental issues, the rest was a by product!!
Then you get into the viscosity debate and how companies cook up that formula. Check out how that works sometime if you want, too lengthy to explain here. Then look at the flash points, (very significant for rotaries), ash...etc...etc..
You are also mistaken in saying Mazda "recommends" mineral over synths. Quite the opposite, they are VERY adamant about NOT using synths in the series2 Renesis, as I mentioned before, they state 3 times in the owners handbook...DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE SYNTHETIC OR SEMI SYNTHETIC OILS. Can it be any more clearer than that?? They did not say otherwise (to me at least) on my series 1, that's why I stayed away from it!
The "hot" debates that you refer to merely occur in these forums, because that's what forums do. You keep referring to the Mazda racing, but you have to realize that it's a totally different and temporary operating condition. With that kind of logic you should be using aviation grade synthetic designed for jet engines! Now, Mazda have their own synthetic, specially developed by Total, but only for sale in Japan...why. It's too expensive for the rest of us! The others available, allegedly developed for Rotaries, but not endorsed by Mazda are Trust & RE Amemiya, and then Idemitsu, (the Le Mans winner).
Now, despite vociferous disbelief to the contrary, the engine replacements Mazda undertook due to OMP and cat "failures" were all running on synthetic oils in hot climates! Not my statements, from Mazda forensics. Go figure...
Can I use synthetic oil in my RX-8?
This topic is hotly debated. The RX-8 owner's manual says to use 5w20 oil that meets API and ILSAC GF-3 specs. It doesn't specify oil type.
The reason why people still think rotaries and synthetic oil don't mix, dates back to the 70's when synthetic oils were new on the market. Rotary engines have a set of oil control seals in the sides of the rotors which are designed to keep oil from the lubrication system out of the combustion chambers. Each seal consists of a metal scraper with a rubber o-ring within. The o-ring was not compatible with some synthetic oils and sometimes the oil would attack the o-ring causing them to break down.
The RENESIS engine in the RX-8 has completely new o-rings that have improved longevity and compatibility with synthetic oils. Mazda does not prohibit synthetics from being used in the RENESIS engine, but recommends standard mineral oil. This is not limited to the RX-8 however, Mazda recommends mineral oil across the board for all their cars.
Here is some food for thought:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use �synthetic� oils including the winning 1991 Leman�s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
What is synthetic oil?
Synthetic oil is made by synthesizing chemical compounds that were not originally present in crude oil. The new base oil is then combined with a series of additives. The main difference lies in the fact that synthetic motor oils are created utilizing a specially "synthesized" base oil where the size of the oil molecules are all of an ideal weight and of a consistent size. While a conventional motor oil is made up of different molecule sizes which are mixed together, along with various waxes and impurities, a fully synthetic oil is made to provide a much purer base oil, with less waxes and with a uniform ideal particle size to help increase the oils viscosity level. The additives which are used in the production of synthetic oils can help to create an extremely stable engine oil which will sustain the correct viscosity levels across a large range of temperatures.
So what does synthetic do for you?
1. Superior friction reducing between sliding surfaces.
2. Lowers engine temperatures. Oil accounts for 1/3rd of a rotary's cooling. You will typically see ~10 F lower temperatures with synthetic due to reduced friction between sliding surfaces.
3. Reduced foaming. Foaming is caused by air bubbles that become trapped in the oil. The bubbles prevent heat from escaping the oil, causing temperatures to rise.
4. Burns cleaner. There is reduced carbon deposits because of the ash less base. Synthetic oil also has less impurities and will burn cleaner than conventional oil. It's all but required for new diesel engines because conventional oil has much higher sulfur content.
5. Synthetic oil lasts longer then conventional oils in extreme heat conditions. This becomes especially important for FI cars.
A rotary engine can be damaged by heat very easily. Oil temps should never exceed 250 F.
What are the drawbacks to using synthetic oil?
1. Main drawback is cost. Synthetic oil can go for more than twice the cost of conventional oil.
2. Not suitable for breaking in your engine. Synthetic oil's lubrication and additives will inhibit the break in process. Your first few oil changes should be with standard mineral oil.
3. Oil leaks can occur when switching to a fully synthetic oil with an old engine. The introduction of a synthetic oil may cause the detergents in the synthetic oil to break down and clean-up waxes and sludge which was maintaining the seals in the engine. Decide if you want to use synthetic sooner rather than later.
Questions and answers
Q: If synthetic oil resists heat better than conventional, doesn't that mean it's not going to burn in the engine as it's injected?
A: You're not burning quarts of oil at a time. The MOP is injecting tiny amounts of oil to lubricate the seals. At that ratio of gas:oil, the oil mixes with the fuel and burns quite easily in the 1600+ F temperatures in your engine.
Q: Why does Mazda not recommend synthetic oil?
A: Synthetic oil performs better than non synthetic oil. This isn't up for debate, it's a fact. With that said, Mazda doesn't recommend it, and no one knows why.
Some theorize that:
1. Mazda has no way to test all synthetics to make sure they're okay for use, thus they take an all or nothing approach.
2. Another theory states that one brand of synthetic oil leaves more carbon after being burned than it should. This in turn causes carbon buildup in the engine. In order to avoid legal implications from naming a specific company not to buy from, Mazda simply states no synthetics. Since I'm not Mazda, I can mention to you that Mobile 1 is the synthetic oil in question. Please keep in mind this is an unsubstantiated rumor.
Q: Does "FULL SYNTHETIC" really mean the oil is synthetic?
A: No. Oils such as Castrol Syntec say "full synthetic" on the bottle, but are derived from crude oil. In 1997, Castrol changed the formula of its Syntec "full synthetic motor oil" and removed PAO from the base stock. It's now based off of hydrocracked mineral oil. This move saved Castrol's production costs by 50% while they continued to charge normal synthetic prices. Moral of the story: Make sure you do some research before buying. Castrol isn't the only one doing this.
This topic is hotly debated. The RX-8 owner's manual says to use 5w20 oil that meets API and ILSAC GF-3 specs. It doesn't specify oil type.
The reason why people still think rotaries and synthetic oil don't mix, dates back to the 70's when synthetic oils were new on the market. Rotary engines have a set of oil control seals in the sides of the rotors which are designed to keep oil from the lubrication system out of the combustion chambers. Each seal consists of a metal scraper with a rubber o-ring within. The o-ring was not compatible with some synthetic oils and sometimes the oil would attack the o-ring causing them to break down.
The RENESIS engine in the RX-8 has completely new o-rings that have improved longevity and compatibility with synthetic oils. Mazda does not prohibit synthetics from being used in the RENESIS engine, but recommends standard mineral oil. This is not limited to the RX-8 however, Mazda recommends mineral oil across the board for all their cars.
Here is some food for thought:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use �synthetic� oils including the winning 1991 Leman�s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
What is synthetic oil?
Synthetic oil is made by synthesizing chemical compounds that were not originally present in crude oil. The new base oil is then combined with a series of additives. The main difference lies in the fact that synthetic motor oils are created utilizing a specially "synthesized" base oil where the size of the oil molecules are all of an ideal weight and of a consistent size. While a conventional motor oil is made up of different molecule sizes which are mixed together, along with various waxes and impurities, a fully synthetic oil is made to provide a much purer base oil, with less waxes and with a uniform ideal particle size to help increase the oils viscosity level. The additives which are used in the production of synthetic oils can help to create an extremely stable engine oil which will sustain the correct viscosity levels across a large range of temperatures.
So what does synthetic do for you?
1. Superior friction reducing between sliding surfaces.
2. Lowers engine temperatures. Oil accounts for 1/3rd of a rotary's cooling. You will typically see ~10 F lower temperatures with synthetic due to reduced friction between sliding surfaces.
3. Reduced foaming. Foaming is caused by air bubbles that become trapped in the oil. The bubbles prevent heat from escaping the oil, causing temperatures to rise.
4. Burns cleaner. There is reduced carbon deposits because of the ash less base. Synthetic oil also has less impurities and will burn cleaner than conventional oil. It's all but required for new diesel engines because conventional oil has much higher sulfur content.
5. Synthetic oil lasts longer then conventional oils in extreme heat conditions. This becomes especially important for FI cars.
A rotary engine can be damaged by heat very easily. Oil temps should never exceed 250 F.
What are the drawbacks to using synthetic oil?
1. Main drawback is cost. Synthetic oil can go for more than twice the cost of conventional oil.
2. Not suitable for breaking in your engine. Synthetic oil's lubrication and additives will inhibit the break in process. Your first few oil changes should be with standard mineral oil.
3. Oil leaks can occur when switching to a fully synthetic oil with an old engine. The introduction of a synthetic oil may cause the detergents in the synthetic oil to break down and clean-up waxes and sludge which was maintaining the seals in the engine. Decide if you want to use synthetic sooner rather than later.
Questions and answers
Q: If synthetic oil resists heat better than conventional, doesn't that mean it's not going to burn in the engine as it's injected?
A: You're not burning quarts of oil at a time. The MOP is injecting tiny amounts of oil to lubricate the seals. At that ratio of gas:oil, the oil mixes with the fuel and burns quite easily in the 1600+ F temperatures in your engine.
Q: Why does Mazda not recommend synthetic oil?
A: Synthetic oil performs better than non synthetic oil. This isn't up for debate, it's a fact. With that said, Mazda doesn't recommend it, and no one knows why.
Some theorize that:
1. Mazda has no way to test all synthetics to make sure they're okay for use, thus they take an all or nothing approach.
2. Another theory states that one brand of synthetic oil leaves more carbon after being burned than it should. This in turn causes carbon buildup in the engine. In order to avoid legal implications from naming a specific company not to buy from, Mazda simply states no synthetics. Since I'm not Mazda, I can mention to you that Mobile 1 is the synthetic oil in question. Please keep in mind this is an unsubstantiated rumor.
Q: Does "FULL SYNTHETIC" really mean the oil is synthetic?
A: No. Oils such as Castrol Syntec say "full synthetic" on the bottle, but are derived from crude oil. In 1997, Castrol changed the formula of its Syntec "full synthetic motor oil" and removed PAO from the base stock. It's now based off of hydrocracked mineral oil. This move saved Castrol's production costs by 50% while they continued to charge normal synthetic prices. Moral of the story: Make sure you do some research before buying. Castrol isn't the only one doing this.
Registered
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
You are also mistaken in saying Mazda "recommends" mineral over synths. Quite the opposite, they are VERY adamant about NOT using synths in the series2 Renesis, as I mentioned before, they state 3 times in the owners handbook...DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE SYNTHETIC OR SEMI SYNTHETIC OILS. Can it be any more clearer than that?? They did not say otherwise (to me at least) on my series 1, that's why I stayed away from it!
And again, I said PROVE, not he say she say BS.......
"With used cars, it can be bit more difficult. See, many RX-8 owners abuse the car and/or try to outdo Mazda engineers by sensless modifications. The engine is rev-happy but they really DO abuse it."
....what can I say? You guys are all smarter than Mazda engineers, that's why you are all so successful in your lives?
Maybe you are just in denial?
....what can I say? You guys are all smarter than Mazda engineers, that's why you are all so successful in your lives?
Maybe you are just in denial?
Who made Ceramic Apex seals? I know Mazda's engineers didn't. and guess what. Its better than ANYTHING Mazda offers. and who Asked Dr. Ianetti to make those seals? Mazda did.
Sure most of us are not smarter than MAzda engineers. but Im pretty sure most of us are smarter than you
Isn't that enough ?
I think if the explanation came from Mazda as to why your engine failed, I would give it some credibility. 47k is a low mileage! But I believe Mazda never had 50,000 engine failures like this!
I honestly don'y know why your engine failed other than problems did exist with the OMP delivery tubes. some SC's used the wrong oil specs, not in accordance with Mazda's instructions, and yes, there are ham fisted mechanics around, quite a lot in fact. My engine was on it's "last legs" maybe, but it didn't expire, compression was ok, not great. I never used any kind of fuel or petrol additives, cleaners, only Mazda oils (never synthetics as far as I know) and did a LOT of highway driving, it was part of the job I did. What can I say?
I honestly don'y know why your engine failed other than problems did exist with the OMP delivery tubes. some SC's used the wrong oil specs, not in accordance with Mazda's instructions, and yes, there are ham fisted mechanics around, quite a lot in fact. My engine was on it's "last legs" maybe, but it didn't expire, compression was ok, not great. I never used any kind of fuel or petrol additives, cleaners, only Mazda oils (never synthetics as far as I know) and did a LOT of highway driving, it was part of the job I did. What can I say?
I don't think it's the last we will see of Onyx.
If you do come back. Explain to me this. I have a 2004 RX8 and my engine failes at 47,000 miles. I ussed nothing but 5w20 and brought the redline up to 6,000rpm every other day as instructed to by Mazda techs. All maintainence was done religiously and I did the oil changes myself essentially as my brother worked at good year and me and him would throw it on a lift and do them. I am **** when it comes down to this stuff, but my engine still failed.
As for you with 186k miles on your RX, I bet it wasn't a healthy engine. My car had low compression, but drove pretty damn well until the engine completly died on me. I had hard starts when it got cold, but nothing else that was out of the ordinary.
You might be interested in my next post as well.
If you do come back. Explain to me this. I have a 2004 RX8 and my engine failes at 47,000 miles. I ussed nothing but 5w20 and brought the redline up to 6,000rpm every other day as instructed to by Mazda techs. All maintainence was done religiously and I did the oil changes myself essentially as my brother worked at good year and me and him would throw it on a lift and do them. I am **** when it comes down to this stuff, but my engine still failed.
As for you with 186k miles on your RX, I bet it wasn't a healthy engine. My car had low compression, but drove pretty damn well until the engine completly died on me. I had hard starts when it got cold, but nothing else that was out of the ordinary.
You might be interested in my next post as well.
he kept on saying "oh Mazda does not recommend blah blah blah, and only 5w20 yadayadayada"
well, there you go. I highlighted the stuff in BOLD
This engine failed because Mazda position the oil nozzle wrong + OMP rate is way too low (stock is like what, 3 at idle? or was it 6 now after the recall.) and of course, the 5w20 with 30+ yr old oil pump is another cause (do your homework on that smarty)
Mazda knows best right? I guess. after numerous failure sure they know now. but S1 was an under budget project so I actually admired their work.
You dont know **** about this engine. Just man up and admit it.
and your oil crap is all wrong too. wow. you sell them and you know best? give me a break.
Now, despite vociferous disbelief to the contrary, the engine replacements Mazda undertook due to OMP and cat "failures" were all running on synthetic oils in hot climates! Not my statements, from Mazda forensics. Go figure...
if not. please seriously, stfu already.
All running Synthetic oil? LMAO
You make it sound like Synthetic oil = Source of all carbon ? LOL
In fact you will see it no matter what you use.
Oh well, you know best right? hmm, Im wrong you're right omg !
Last edited by nycgps; Feb 22, 2010 at 11:56 AM.
Registered
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 12,255
Likes: 8
From: Buddhist Monastery, High Himalaya Mtns. of Tibet
As a Moderator, I will allow a heated discussion to go on. I will even let a argument to continue for a while, as long as it is on topic and not personal. However, if I think you are here solely to disrupt the site, I will take action.
Registered
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 12,255
Likes: 8
From: Buddhist Monastery, High Himalaya Mtns. of Tibet
You are also mistaken in saying Mazda "recommends" mineral over synths. Quite the opposite, they are VERY adamant about NOT using synths in the series2 Renesis, as I mentioned before, they state 3 times in the owners handbook...DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE SYNTHETIC OR SEMI SYNTHETIC OILS. Can it be any more clearer than that?? They did not say otherwise (to me at least) on my series 1, that's why I stayed away from it!
The Angry Wheelchair
iTrader: (14)
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 1
From: In da woodz, lurking after you
Certain country manuals of the 8 say not to use synthetics. The US is not one of them that I am aware of. My '06 "recommends" 5w-20. That's it, that's all. There is no mention in there about not using synthetics.
Reality is, as he fails to realize the purpose of the SOHN adapter in the first place. Synthetics were considered bad and possibly worst than mineral oil adding to the excess carbon build up because again, you were using oil that was not meant for combustion regardless of whether it was synthetic or mineral oil. Both by design are poor use for this engine as a lubrication on the apex seals.
The SOHN adapter fixes this by allowing us to use proper 2-stroke oil that is meant for combustion and lubricating the apex seals while allowing us to use synthetic oil to lubricate rest of the engine. If you want to debate whether synthetics are better or are not in the engine alone well you can read articles on it all you want with many backing both. In relevance to this topic, you need to understand and read through this thread, especially the sources people provided from people who have torn these engines down showing the problem which is in majority supported to be carbon build up causing the failures in the engine. This is not from a theoretical standpoint, it is from a factual tear down inspection of the motor showing the conditions of them. Carbon build up is because again, of using a non-compatible oil for lubricating the seals in the combustion chamber which is, the suggested 5w-20 or any other motor oil for that matter. Whether the oil is syn or mineral oil is not relevant.
If he still can't read through this and debates then he's just ignoring facts. It can't get any simpler than I explained it.
Reality is, as he fails to realize the purpose of the SOHN adapter in the first place. Synthetics were considered bad and possibly worst than mineral oil adding to the excess carbon build up because again, you were using oil that was not meant for combustion regardless of whether it was synthetic or mineral oil. Both by design are poor use for this engine as a lubrication on the apex seals.
The SOHN adapter fixes this by allowing us to use proper 2-stroke oil that is meant for combustion and lubricating the apex seals while allowing us to use synthetic oil to lubricate rest of the engine. If you want to debate whether synthetics are better or are not in the engine alone well you can read articles on it all you want with many backing both. In relevance to this topic, you need to understand and read through this thread, especially the sources people provided from people who have torn these engines down showing the problem which is in majority supported to be carbon build up causing the failures in the engine. This is not from a theoretical standpoint, it is from a factual tear down inspection of the motor showing the conditions of them. Carbon build up is because again, of using a non-compatible oil for lubricating the seals in the combustion chamber which is, the suggested 5w-20 or any other motor oil for that matter. Whether the oil is syn or mineral oil is not relevant.
If he still can't read through this and debates then he's just ignoring facts. It can't get any simpler than I explained it.
Registered
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 12,255
Likes: 8
From: Buddhist Monastery, High Himalaya Mtns. of Tibet
I just checked the PDF, that I downloaded from Mazda, and the printed Owners Manual, that came with the car. I have been unable to find any mention in regards to the use of synthetic oil.
The Sohn adapter was originally used in the RX7 for race engines. They were using a dry sump system and couldn't make use of the engine oil injection.
The Sohn adapter was originally used in the RX7 for race engines. They were using a dry sump system and couldn't make use of the engine oil injection.
Registered
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
The 09+ manuals do have one line that I was able to find about synthetic oil. All it says is "Do not use Synthetic oil as it could cause starting problems" That is a quote and I can actually prove it unlike some people.
[PROOF]
[/PROOF]
[PROOF]
[/PROOF]
Last edited by jmc23200; Feb 22, 2010 at 02:02 PM.
Lubricious
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 4
From: SF Bay Area, California
Not if they're running a Mazda rotary. Any conversion takes into account the engine design parameters to run at rpm that produces good power and fuel economy. FWIW, they're running Mazda rotary around 7000-7500 rpm. That is then put through a reduction gear, because turning the propeller that fast would put a good portion of the blades past supersonic. "traditional" light aircraft piston engines (Continental, Lycoming) run in the 2500-3000 rpm range.
Lubricious
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 4
From: SF Bay Area, California
If what you propose were fact, and all the failures were due to synthetic oil, Mazda would have had a vigorous program to document a prohibition against it. Instead, all we see is a vague warning in the 2009 manual about a possible degradation in "starting performance".
It doesn't add up.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
my manual says the same thing..."Do not use synthetic or semi synthetic".....so are we agreeing on something here or not?
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
Thank you for that, I was beginning to wonder when someone would spot that. Race engines, like aircraft engines, need a dry sump lube system, otherwise the pump will be sucking air around corners, like the aircraft engine would be doing just going into a turn. Gravity avoids many RX owners here apparently! (However I cannot comment on the application of the Rotary in kit aircraft, haven't seen one).
I do feel bad for having stirred so much trouble on this thread, however, there is an awful lot of misinformation given here, and some of you guys get really vicious when confronted with something u don't want to hear.
I do feel bad for having stirred so much trouble on this thread, however, there is an awful lot of misinformation given here, and some of you guys get really vicious when confronted with something u don't want to hear.
I just checked the PDF, that I downloaded from Mazda, and the printed Owners Manual, that came with the car. I have been unable to find any mention in regards to the use of synthetic oil.
The Sohn adapter was originally used in the RX7 for race engines. They were using a dry sump system and couldn't make use of the engine oil injection.
The Sohn adapter was originally used in the RX7 for race engines. They were using a dry sump system and couldn't make use of the engine oil injection.
What I can't figure is how Mazda would glean that information. Were they analyzing the used oil to determine "synthetic-ness"? Not an easy task.
If what you propose were fact, and all the failures were due to synthetic oil, Mazda would have had a vigorous program to document a prohibition against it. Instead, all we see is a vague warning in the 2009 manual about a possible degradation in "starting performance". E
It doesn't add up.
If what you propose were fact, and all the failures were due to synthetic oil, Mazda would have had a vigorous program to document a prohibition against it. Instead, all we see is a vague warning in the 2009 manual about a possible degradation in "starting performance". E
It doesn't add up.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
not entirely correct..... Someone figured that the Rotary (Wankel) was like a 2 stroke engine and needed 2 stroke oil for burning at the seals. If you care to check, the rotary actually uses LESS engine oil than a conventional equivalent piston.
If you check with Idemitsu, or even Royal Purple (since the former is best spoken to in Japanese) you will see that they claim synthetics are "cleaner burning" than minerals and VERY suited to the Rotary. Well, my friend, you have to see past the sales hype and make sure you are comparing apples with apples. (They are referring to old mineral formulas.) For sure it's "cleaner burning", but the ash content is pretty uniform throughout oil base stocks these days, synthetics and minerals. Go check for yourself. You have to look out for the additives, the metals, detergents and other goodies that the oil company cooks add to the brew! Did you know, for example, that synthetics are not that good for carrying soot dispersants, (which is why diesels didn't like them, especially when EGR's appeared on the scene...)
Excess carbon build up occurs when the engine doesn't reach operating temperatures for long enough for the soot/carbon and other products of combustion to disperse and be carried away in the oil or in the exhaust. That's it!
If you check with Idemitsu, or even Royal Purple (since the former is best spoken to in Japanese) you will see that they claim synthetics are "cleaner burning" than minerals and VERY suited to the Rotary. Well, my friend, you have to see past the sales hype and make sure you are comparing apples with apples. (They are referring to old mineral formulas.) For sure it's "cleaner burning", but the ash content is pretty uniform throughout oil base stocks these days, synthetics and minerals. Go check for yourself. You have to look out for the additives, the metals, detergents and other goodies that the oil company cooks add to the brew! Did you know, for example, that synthetics are not that good for carrying soot dispersants, (which is why diesels didn't like them, especially when EGR's appeared on the scene...)
Excess carbon build up occurs when the engine doesn't reach operating temperatures for long enough for the soot/carbon and other products of combustion to disperse and be carried away in the oil or in the exhaust. That's it!
Certain country manuals of the 8 say not to use synthetics. The US is not one of them that I am aware of. My '06 "recommends" 5w-20. That's it, that's all. There is no mention in there about not using synthetics.
Reality is, as he fails to realize the purpose of the SOHN adapter in the first place. Synthetics were considered bad and possibly worst than mineral oil adding to the excess carbon build up because again, you were using oil that was not meant for combustion regardless of whether it was synthetic or mineral oil. Both by design are poor use for this engine as a lubrication on the apex seals.
The SOHN adapter fixes this by allowing us to use proper 2-stroke oil that is meant for combustion and lubricating the apex seals while allowing us to use synthetic oil to lubricate rest of the engine. If you want to debate whether synthetics are better or are not in the engine alone well you can read articles on it all you want with many backing both. In relevance to this topic, you need to understand and read through this thread, especially the sources people provided from people who have torn these engines down showing the problem which is in majority supported to be carbon build up causing the failures in the engine. This is not from a theoretical standpoint, it is from a factual tear down inspection of the motor showing the conditions of them. Carbon build up is because again, of using a non-compatible oil for lubricating the seals in the combustion chamber which is, the suggested 5w-20 or any other motor oil for that matter. Whether the oil is syn or mineral oil is not relevant.
If he still can't read through this and debates then he's just ignoring facts. It can't get any simpler than I explained it.
Reality is, as he fails to realize the purpose of the SOHN adapter in the first place. Synthetics were considered bad and possibly worst than mineral oil adding to the excess carbon build up because again, you were using oil that was not meant for combustion regardless of whether it was synthetic or mineral oil. Both by design are poor use for this engine as a lubrication on the apex seals.
The SOHN adapter fixes this by allowing us to use proper 2-stroke oil that is meant for combustion and lubricating the apex seals while allowing us to use synthetic oil to lubricate rest of the engine. If you want to debate whether synthetics are better or are not in the engine alone well you can read articles on it all you want with many backing both. In relevance to this topic, you need to understand and read through this thread, especially the sources people provided from people who have torn these engines down showing the problem which is in majority supported to be carbon build up causing the failures in the engine. This is not from a theoretical standpoint, it is from a factual tear down inspection of the motor showing the conditions of them. Carbon build up is because again, of using a non-compatible oil for lubricating the seals in the combustion chamber which is, the suggested 5w-20 or any other motor oil for that matter. Whether the oil is syn or mineral oil is not relevant.
If he still can't read through this and debates then he's just ignoring facts. It can't get any simpler than I explained it.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
yeah you are right, kinda pisses me off as well that Mazda are vague about why synthetics are not recommended for their 09's specifically. Actually, as I said before, in my manual they say it three times now in 3 different places, so it's a fairly clear warning in my opinion. A little more transparency would help, but then again can you imagine the fall out if they did say that?
What I can't figure is how Mazda would glean that information. Were they analyzing the used oil to determine "synthetic-ness"? Not an easy task.
If what you propose were fact, and all the failures were due to synthetic oil, Mazda would have had a vigorous program to document a prohibition against it. Instead, all we see is a vague warning in the 2009 manual about a possible degradation in "starting performance".
It doesn't add up.
If what you propose were fact, and all the failures were due to synthetic oil, Mazda would have had a vigorous program to document a prohibition against it. Instead, all we see is a vague warning in the 2009 manual about a possible degradation in "starting performance".
It doesn't add up.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
well someone else just did that, check above.
Want to hear something funny?
My 09/03 build '04 MT has been serviced by the authorized Mazda dealer since day one. Guess what oil they have been using? Motorcraft 5W20 Semi Synthetic. I have 85K on it currently. LOL
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
excuse me for saying so, as a moderator maybe you should check my earlier posts about coming from Boston before saying what's coming from Boston got to do with it?
In the early noughties, I did a LOT of highway driving in the eastern states...that IS a lot of mileage cos it was part of my job and driving the RX was a bonus.
If you feel my contributions are disrupting this forum. ok, I'll quit. Unfortunately there are a lot of hotheads here.
In the early noughties, I did a LOT of highway driving in the eastern states...that IS a lot of mileage cos it was part of my job and driving the RX was a bonus.
If you feel my contributions are disrupting this forum. ok, I'll quit. Unfortunately there are a lot of hotheads here.
I do believe I read quite well. So, I'm quoting the relevant parts. And, I don't know how being from Boston has anything to do with this.
As a Moderator, I will allow a heated discussion to go on. I will even let a argument to continue for a while, as long as it is on topic and not personal. However, if I think you are here solely to disrupt the site, I will take action.
As a Moderator, I will allow a heated discussion to go on. I will even let a argument to continue for a while, as long as it is on topic and not personal. However, if I think you are here solely to disrupt the site, I will take action.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
