e-85 fuel
09-03-2006, 10:05 AM
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e-85 fuel
has anyone been using e-85 fuel in thier rx-8 ? if so have you had any problems using it. we have alot of it here in oregon ( around the eugene area) and would like to know if there is any problems or advantge of using it. it does have alot higher oct. level than any gas on the mkt. here 
09-03-2006, 11:01 AM
#2
Metatron
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E-85....
No, don't.
Your '8 just isn't set up for it, you will get a VERY lean mixture, and possible detonation, no matter how high the Octane is.
If it started at all, it would run like crap, no power, very slow to accelerate and stall out.
The octane rating is irrelevant, the car only needs about 94RON, anything above that is wasted.
E85 is hugely subsidized, doesn't make it good for all cars.
S
Your '8 just isn't set up for it, you will get a VERY lean mixture, and possible detonation, no matter how high the Octane is.
If it started at all, it would run like crap, no power, very slow to accelerate and stall out.
The octane rating is irrelevant, the car only needs about 94RON, anything above that is wasted.
E85 is hugely subsidized, doesn't make it good for all cars.
S
09-03-2006, 12:58 PM
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from my (limited) understanding of E-85... its a joke and a huge waste of money.
The energy content in 1Gal of E-85 vs 1 Gal of pure gasoline if far less.... you wont go as far on one tank period. It may be a little cheaper, but factor you have to buy more of it to go the same distance.
Taken straight from: http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/Biomass/Cost.shtml
"Because a gallon of ethanol contains less energy than a gallon of gasoline, the production cost of ethanol must be multiplied by a factor of 1.5 to make an energy-cost comparison with gasoline. This means that if ethanol costs $1.10 per gallon to produce, then the effective cost per gallon to equal the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline is $1.65. In contrast, the current wholesale price of gasoline is about 90 cents per gallon."
The environment thing? it costs money and time and some pollution just to make the stuff... and the "stuff" is in inferior product to gasoline.
I'm all for saving the envirnoment if possible, but the simple fact is that you arent going to accomplish ANYTHING unless future products can at least keep on par with what is availabe now-a-days.
The energy content in 1Gal of E-85 vs 1 Gal of pure gasoline if far less.... you wont go as far on one tank period. It may be a little cheaper, but factor you have to buy more of it to go the same distance.
Taken straight from: http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/Biomass/Cost.shtml
"Because a gallon of ethanol contains less energy than a gallon of gasoline, the production cost of ethanol must be multiplied by a factor of 1.5 to make an energy-cost comparison with gasoline. This means that if ethanol costs $1.10 per gallon to produce, then the effective cost per gallon to equal the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline is $1.65. In contrast, the current wholesale price of gasoline is about 90 cents per gallon."
The environment thing? it costs money and time and some pollution just to make the stuff... and the "stuff" is in inferior product to gasoline.
I'm all for saving the envirnoment if possible, but the simple fact is that you arent going to accomplish ANYTHING unless future products can at least keep on par with what is availabe now-a-days.
09-03-2006, 01:17 PM
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Metatron
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Subsidies....
Anytime you are looking at a subsidy, you have to think about the rationale -
Why is the government paying me to do something that otherwise makes no sense, and I would normally not do?
Who is getting the mega-bucks? At first glance, it seems to be "farmers", and that can't be bad, right? ....but on further examination it turns out to be huge agri-business companies - specifically, the Archer Daniels Midland Corporation, by far the biggest, with the best lobbyists.
If you think Big Oil screws you, wait till ADM and their lobbyists are finished with you!
Consumers voting for Alco-Fuel is like turkeys voting for Thanksgiving!!
S
Why is the government paying me to do something that otherwise makes no sense, and I would normally not do?
Who is getting the mega-bucks? At first glance, it seems to be "farmers", and that can't be bad, right? ....but on further examination it turns out to be huge agri-business companies - specifically, the Archer Daniels Midland Corporation, by far the biggest, with the best lobbyists.
If you think Big Oil screws you, wait till ADM and their lobbyists are finished with you!
Consumers voting for Alco-Fuel is like turkeys voting for Thanksgiving!!
S
09-03-2006, 02:57 PM
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E85 and the RX8 -
The RX8 simply isn't designed to run on it. As someone else mentioned it will suffer from lean detonation. (Lean detonation differs from compression detonation as the spontaneous ignition tends to propogate from the kernal oout wher compression detonation propogates from the outside to the inside. Anyone who's pushed a 2 stroke to the limits with mixture and compression is probably familiar with this).
E85 and energy content
There are a lot of sources to refer to for BTU/gallon between gas and E85 and the figure above for 1.5 times is close. Actually closer to 1.4 in regards to energy content although Ethanol brings a little bit of O2 along for the ride so to reach stiochiometric it's closer to 1.6:1. Potentially if the RX8 were tuned properly it would gain about 7% power due to the oxygenation - but it gets better - with a much higher octane compression could be pushed to about 12.5:1, gaining about 6% more power. That equates to a theoretical 270HP if the RX8 were tuned to run E85. Also efficiency gain with higher compression is about 6% - but that 6% gain would only really be seen at Wide Open Throttle.
E85 and cost
Here is where few people really understand the potential yet politically challenged value of E85. Long before the word "terrorist" came into the picture, about 40% of the cost of the US military has been to keep imported oil flowing. In effect our tax dollars have been heavily subsidizing gasoline for over 25 years. Depending on which numbers you want to believe the "security" subsidies for gasoline out of our tax dollars alone over the last 10 years have averaged about $2.00 a gallon. Thats right, even when gas was $1.00 a gallon. So whenever someone wants to comapre the cost of gasoline to any other source they're only fooling themselves if they don't include that subsidy cost. Same goes for the subsidies applied to the alternative fuels. In the long run E85 comes out to being less expensive then gasoline in the current market, but thats only because the demand hasn't ramped up yet. Further we still have counter-productive laws in place over the import of cane sugar and other stocks that ethanol can be very cost effectively manufactured from that will not require the military to provide transportation security for.
The bottom line is E85 is coming and it's here to stay. It will take a few years for the fleet of US vehicles to be ready to run on it. Some already are. Some of the best multi-fuel vehicles produced during the transition will be turbo-charged which allows a CPU controlled "compression" capability - ie - more boost.
It's relatively easy to measure the fuel in the tank for actual ethanol content for those who will switch between fuels during the transition - by measuring the di-electric constant. That way a CPU can identify the correct fuel mixture for the Gross Mapping requirement and fall back on the knock sensor and O2 sensor for Fine Tuning the Gross Mapping constants.
In the mean time we'll still be spending 14 times more on our military then the next largest military budget on earth, but thats life. The days of cheap energy are over until someone figures out some new magic like cold fusion or some other sci-fi dream.
PS;
In 2000 there were something like 5000 registered lobbiests in Washington. Today there are over 36,000. Over 9000 of them are directly related to the petroleum industry.
The RX8 simply isn't designed to run on it. As someone else mentioned it will suffer from lean detonation. (Lean detonation differs from compression detonation as the spontaneous ignition tends to propogate from the kernal oout wher compression detonation propogates from the outside to the inside. Anyone who's pushed a 2 stroke to the limits with mixture and compression is probably familiar with this).
E85 and energy content
There are a lot of sources to refer to for BTU/gallon between gas and E85 and the figure above for 1.5 times is close. Actually closer to 1.4 in regards to energy content although Ethanol brings a little bit of O2 along for the ride so to reach stiochiometric it's closer to 1.6:1. Potentially if the RX8 were tuned properly it would gain about 7% power due to the oxygenation - but it gets better - with a much higher octane compression could be pushed to about 12.5:1, gaining about 6% more power. That equates to a theoretical 270HP if the RX8 were tuned to run E85. Also efficiency gain with higher compression is about 6% - but that 6% gain would only really be seen at Wide Open Throttle.
E85 and cost
Here is where few people really understand the potential yet politically challenged value of E85. Long before the word "terrorist" came into the picture, about 40% of the cost of the US military has been to keep imported oil flowing. In effect our tax dollars have been heavily subsidizing gasoline for over 25 years. Depending on which numbers you want to believe the "security" subsidies for gasoline out of our tax dollars alone over the last 10 years have averaged about $2.00 a gallon. Thats right, even when gas was $1.00 a gallon. So whenever someone wants to comapre the cost of gasoline to any other source they're only fooling themselves if they don't include that subsidy cost. Same goes for the subsidies applied to the alternative fuels. In the long run E85 comes out to being less expensive then gasoline in the current market, but thats only because the demand hasn't ramped up yet. Further we still have counter-productive laws in place over the import of cane sugar and other stocks that ethanol can be very cost effectively manufactured from that will not require the military to provide transportation security for.
The bottom line is E85 is coming and it's here to stay. It will take a few years for the fleet of US vehicles to be ready to run on it. Some already are. Some of the best multi-fuel vehicles produced during the transition will be turbo-charged which allows a CPU controlled "compression" capability - ie - more boost.
It's relatively easy to measure the fuel in the tank for actual ethanol content for those who will switch between fuels during the transition - by measuring the di-electric constant. That way a CPU can identify the correct fuel mixture for the Gross Mapping requirement and fall back on the knock sensor and O2 sensor for Fine Tuning the Gross Mapping constants.
In the mean time we'll still be spending 14 times more on our military then the next largest military budget on earth, but thats life. The days of cheap energy are over until someone figures out some new magic like cold fusion or some other sci-fi dream.
PS;
In 2000 there were something like 5000 registered lobbiests in Washington. Today there are over 36,000. Over 9000 of them are directly related to the petroleum industry.
Last edited by kartweb; 09-03-2006 at 03:00 PM.
09-03-2006, 03:16 PM
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Well here is a new question but related to that luvly E fuel.
Around my area most if not all gas stations now have that nice little 10% Ethanol sticker on the pumps. I'm just curious if this is a possible cause for my horrible/rancid/sad gas mileage?
Also Ford is already releasing some "Flex-Fuel" vehicles in hopes of garnering more sales. In Brazil they have been selling these vehicles for years so the technology isnt entirely new.
Part of me is hoping with this new flash because of the recall maybe just maybe my gas mileage will go up (read sumthing about they are leaning out the mixture at start up).
Just wait till someone spits out "I want to run BioDiesel in my Rotary will it work" lol. Though the thought of driving behind a trucks and smelling cooking oil is just strange to me, and would bring about cravings for french fries.
Around my area most if not all gas stations now have that nice little 10% Ethanol sticker on the pumps. I'm just curious if this is a possible cause for my horrible/rancid/sad gas mileage?
Also Ford is already releasing some "Flex-Fuel" vehicles in hopes of garnering more sales. In Brazil they have been selling these vehicles for years so the technology isnt entirely new.
Part of me is hoping with this new flash because of the recall maybe just maybe my gas mileage will go up (read sumthing about they are leaning out the mixture at start up).
Just wait till someone spits out "I want to run BioDiesel in my Rotary will it work" lol. Though the thought of driving behind a trucks and smelling cooking oil is just strange to me, and would bring about cravings for french fries.
09-04-2006, 04:55 PM
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I've used E-85 before in my RX-8 because I had to. My car was running on fumes and the only place around had ethanol added to all it's fuel. I've noticed a few places only add it to 87 and 89 octane and leave the Premium stuff alone, but not this place.
The car ran fine. Gas mileage was the same, had the same power and ran smooth like always. It should be noted that the entire tank of gas was consumed on the highway, no stop and go stuff. Filled up, got on the interstate, let the car drink it down and then pulled into another gas station.
Just thought I'd add to the thread.
The car ran fine. Gas mileage was the same, had the same power and ran smooth like always. It should be noted that the entire tank of gas was consumed on the highway, no stop and go stuff. Filled up, got on the interstate, let the car drink it down and then pulled into another gas station.
Just thought I'd add to the thread.
Last edited by supergoat; 09-04-2006 at 04:57 PM.
09-04-2006, 05:06 PM
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E85 usually has a seperate pump. and its tagged at 105 octane.
Fuel WITH ethanol is usually called E10, and it is put into all different grades of gas (87, 89, 91, 93, 94, etc) depending on the location.
ALL gas in the Milwaukee area has 10% Ethanol. My RX8 ran fine on it.
Fuel WITH ethanol is usually called E10, and it is put into all different grades of gas (87, 89, 91, 93, 94, etc) depending on the location.
ALL gas in the Milwaukee area has 10% Ethanol. My RX8 ran fine on it.
09-04-2006, 05:25 PM
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E85 and cost
Here is where few people really understand the potential yet politically challenged value of E85. Long before the word "terrorist" came into the picture, about 40% of the cost of the US military has been to keep imported oil flowing. In effect our tax dollars have been heavily subsidizing gasoline for over 25 years. Depending on which numbers you want to believe the "security" subsidies for gasoline out of our tax dollars alone over the last 10 years have averaged about $2.00 a gallon. Thats right, even when gas was $1.00 a gallon. So whenever someone wants to comapre the cost of gasoline to any other source they're only fooling themselves if they don't include that subsidy cost. Same goes for the subsidies applied to the alternative fuels. In the long run E85 comes out to being less expensive then gasoline in the current market, but thats only because the demand hasn't ramped up yet. Further we still have counter-productive laws in place over the import of cane sugar and other stocks that ethanol can be very cost effectively manufactured from that will not require the military to provide transportation security for.
What a bunch of BS. He's been listening to his hyper liberal economics prof in college. What a laugh. Total assumption based on if we would not have the same miltary in place if not for oil. Tell your prof to get out in the real world.
Here is where few people really understand the potential yet politically challenged value of E85. Long before the word "terrorist" came into the picture, about 40% of the cost of the US military has been to keep imported oil flowing. In effect our tax dollars have been heavily subsidizing gasoline for over 25 years. Depending on which numbers you want to believe the "security" subsidies for gasoline out of our tax dollars alone over the last 10 years have averaged about $2.00 a gallon. Thats right, even when gas was $1.00 a gallon. So whenever someone wants to comapre the cost of gasoline to any other source they're only fooling themselves if they don't include that subsidy cost. Same goes for the subsidies applied to the alternative fuels. In the long run E85 comes out to being less expensive then gasoline in the current market, but thats only because the demand hasn't ramped up yet. Further we still have counter-productive laws in place over the import of cane sugar and other stocks that ethanol can be very cost effectively manufactured from that will not require the military to provide transportation security for.
What a bunch of BS. He's been listening to his hyper liberal economics prof in college. What a laugh. Total assumption based on if we would not have the same miltary in place if not for oil. Tell your prof to get out in the real world.
09-04-2006, 05:48 PM
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National Gaurd is called in to protect the sugarcane crop?? wtf?
That and isnt E-85 being majorly hyped because its home grown and gives our dwindling farmers something to harvest? That and its a win/win for us, we get cheaper fuel and at the same time we are only pouring more money back into American business's. Sadly I suspect big business (Re:Oil Companies) will if they feel legitimitly threatened either slash prices (o.0! meh like that idea) or buy the farms up and ramp up the cost per gallon to be higher than normal gas (that would be bad meh thinks!).
Personaly I'd like to see BioDeisel start to spring up more, from my understanding its primarily made from used cooking oil (I know there is more but when its described they point that out as the primary source). Imagine a BioDeisel pump at your local McDonalds "Yeah I'll take a large frie and 5 gallons of Biodeisel please..."
That and isnt E-85 being majorly hyped because its home grown and gives our dwindling farmers something to harvest? That and its a win/win for us, we get cheaper fuel and at the same time we are only pouring more money back into American business's. Sadly I suspect big business (Re:Oil Companies) will if they feel legitimitly threatened either slash prices (o.0! meh like that idea) or buy the farms up and ramp up the cost per gallon to be higher than normal gas (that would be bad meh thinks!).
Personaly I'd like to see BioDeisel start to spring up more, from my understanding its primarily made from used cooking oil (I know there is more but when its described they point that out as the primary source). Imagine a BioDeisel pump at your local McDonalds "Yeah I'll take a large frie and 5 gallons of Biodeisel please..."
09-05-2006, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by scottmhr1
What a bunch of BS. He's been listening to his hyper liberal economics prof in college. What a laugh. Total assumption based on if we would not have the same miltary in place if not for oil. Tell your prof to get out in the real world.
You mean the professor should get out to where, Brazil? Which is almost totally run on Ethonal. The original engine was designed to run on ethonal. And with ECU and fuel injected engines today, you can make up most of the power lost from running it. Less emissions. Renewable.
So the problem is?
Also consider that most corn farmers are going out of business. They sell the extra they have to be processed to high fructose corn syrup, at a dismal price.
Though corn isnt the best crop for ethanol, they still could sell it to be distilled, and make much more.
But we dont need farmers in this country...
I am 100% for ethanol, regardless of the lost power. I will just get a bigger charger.
09-06-2006, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by scottmhr1
Total assumption based on if we would not have the same miltary in place if not for oil. Tell your prof to get out in the real world.
If you want to discuss politics there are plenty of places on the web to do that.
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