The first mindset we need to get out of is Garrett isn't king and isn't cheap. There are cheaper options out there that also perform better. Predominantly the new Turbonetic and B&W turbos.

As I mentioned in another thread if you want to stick with Garrett go with an HTA center, something I'll explain later. This option how ever is more expensive than the others. I'm on my BlackBerry Storm and typing on this thing is going to give me an aneurysm so hopefully I can get more into it when I return home tonight or tomorrow night.

 

I agree. There is more out there than the expensive GT series turbos, many of which are designed for high boosting 4 cylinders, and prehistoric Greddy turbos. I've been trying to make that point all along. Borg Warner/Bullseye makes some good stuff too, although I have no personal experience with them.

 

The 76 is in the middle of its island - i was meaning on the edge .
I think the Garret 60-1 you posted earlier was more in line with what I'm thinking ..
Actually just saw the 62 you posted as well - that would seem spot on .......

 

I'm not 100% sure on this (3rd hand imformation) but I think this is the guy that rebuilt my Greddy a while back and put an upgraded cold side on it . Would be VERY interested to hear what he could do for reliability as I'm very happy with it power wise .

Swoope - if you are reading this can you confirm ?

 

don't be a dick...notice I said nothing more after my post.....comments like that are what start arguments.


carry on...I'm here to learn just like the next guy.

 

It was simply a note. You were the only one to do it, and it was close on the first page so I would prefer people not come in, see your post and think that's what this thread is about. Just some people need to be more open minded and realize vendors aren't always the smartest/most qualified people on a board.

A board should have many members who are allowed to voice their opinion if something is with their scope. You mentioned I irritate you, so like zoom said lets not make anything be personal and just use this thread as a way to get to the bottom of our power dilemma.

Hopefully one day this can be a sticky.

PS. Do not buy a BB Storm..

 

Since I wanted to throw some turbos into the loop and don't have the patience to search around as of yet on this phone, some turbos people might wanna take a look at would be the smaller S200 series BW turbos and the smaller GT-K turbos. Also look at the ForcedPerformance website and check out their HTA cartriged turbos. The HTA FP Green is growing on me.

They have listings for the 3052 (The turbo Id go with if I stuck with Garrett) and also the 3065. I'd love to look further into a GT28r with a slightly bigger hot side. Hmm..

You have to figure we want a turbo that is built to fly within the 400-450hp range and be a trooper at least until you hit the 7.8K-8.2k mark. Its a tall order but I'm sure its out there.

 

fair enough...messages deleted/edited
and I agree with you that vendors aren't always the smartest or most qualified

 

See I knew we could coexist lol..

Also.. a few people messaged me about the GT28r..

I am NOT referring to the tiny GT28r as in the GT2560 (the typical GT28) But I was referring to either the GT2871r or the GT28RS both of which are bigger than the typical GT28r and spool just as fast.

 

why you would want a T25 style exhaust housing is beyond me. that's way smaller than the stock turbine housing on my 2nd gen Rx-7 turbo, a car that made 182 at the flywheel in 1987 and like 180 torque.

people complaining about spool on these small turbos is ridiculous. these are rotaries. They have no ***** under 3500-4000rpm. That's just the way they are. The only T3 you ever see on an FD is a GT35. I'm not saying that to somehow sound elitist, I'm just pointing out what is already somewhat proven.

 

I don't think running a 35r is being an elitist.. to the DSM community the FI thinks RX7 guys do is fickle but the point is we want an alternative to make broad power.. Not top end.

Your idea of power is misconstrued.. We dont want simple peak power we want usable power and the reason you go smaller is to compensate for the like of a bottom by improving the midrange. Ignoring that and going for pure top end is a drag racing mentality.. Who in their right mind would DR a RX8?

 

while the map for the turbo that Jeff uses looks like it s way out of the efficiency rang its actually not that far. it still at like 65% its not a potato cooker at the top end like you might think.

 

Abel Ibarra

 

i can confirm what you are talking about. but not the vendor.

you have my email.. and pm.. btw, that does explain a lot about your not so greedy posts!



beers

 

Abel Ibarra.

edit: goddamn it, someone beat me to it lol.

 

Maybe we haven't agreed on the definition of "mid range" and "peak power" . GT35R's will hit 15psi by 3500-4000 rpm all day long and continue making power from 7000-8000rpm depending on your setup. That's plenty of both for me.

And you will find any turbo with a T25 inlet (like GT28's) will struggle to control boost in an internally wastegated configuration. Rotaries like big hotsides. The Greddy 18G has a 16 cm^2 hotside. Most DSM 20G setups have a 7 cm^2 hotside or maybe a bit bigger. Small hotsides result in too much pressure (boost control problems) and not enough flow (torquey but power falls off prematurely).

 

i thought i had a post here that said something about the t25 being tooo small for a rotary?

glad arggh covered it.

 

Perhaps I am not expert enough but please allow me to chime in with this opinion;

The toughest part about this entire exercise isn't merely making power, making "boost", or moving more air into the engine. The toughest part is helping a client, friend, or fellow forum member select a turbo (or a kit) that will deliver the type of driveability they expect at the longevity they would consider acceptable. The joke that your chosen higher power has played on humanity is that everything man-made is subjective and there are any number of different ways to achieve a stated goal. The "experts" are those who can help you to foresee circumstances you may not have considered and devise manners of dealing with them.

This conversation is never-ending and I suppose many will figure I am a dumbass, anyway.

The good news is that I am not a turbo expert. I help people to keep from breaking their ****.

 

^ I will say this. I throw out a lot of references to Rx-7's because that's what I know and the platform just has waaay more FI development behind it because it is older and FI from the factory. I think the motors are still very similar once you go FI, but the owners aren't.

Rx-8 owners and Rx-7 owners are not the same at all. I initially find myself surprised when people are expecting 50-80k out of a turbo setup on the Renesis. But then I have to remind myself that people are spending anywhere from 15-30k on their Rx-8's, maybe less. And the cars are still in production and people daily drive them a lot, with a WARRANTY. With that mentality expectations are different.

But who drives their 15-20 year old turbo Rx-7 that many miles really? We expect like 20-30k out of hopped up motors (although we would like more), because the reused parts are already worn and basically Rx-7's are falling apart anyway. They're just old, and crap breaks left and right on them even when they are left relatively unmodded. And you can get FD's from 8-12k in mediocre shape, and a turbo FC for $2-4k in decent shape. After a few bolt ons both generations are faster than a Greddy'd Rx-8.

So Rx-7 owners expect more wrenching (no Rx-7 owner can remember what a warranty feels like), bigger power, and less engine life than Rx-8 owners. That's why 400whp is starting to turn into 'meh' in the Rx-7 community (500whp on pump with methanol injection is the new 'thing' for FD owners) and 40k miles is an eternity of engine life.

 

Would you agree, and do you find yourself particularly satisfied, that it is not so much when the car runs as you expect it to but exactly as your customer expects that you are most satisfied and proud of your efforts/guidance? To me, tech stuff is one challenge, but the challenge of total customer satisfaction is far greater and more rewarding.

 

^ I don't know the answer to that question because I am not a vendor and I don't work in custom service. I've always been an ideas and technical analysis guy. In the automotive world I'm just a home enthusiast, and I have a specific idea of how I want my car to be--down to the angle of every fitting, the routing of all the wires and plumbing, the clearance of every seal, the exact timing advance curve. I'm not that great when it comes to working on cars but I just spend ridiculous amounts of time redoing stuff until I get it right.

After almost 5 years in the game, I've come to the conclusion that 1) nobody local to me (within 1 hour) can work on rotaries well enough that I would be comfortable with them, so in most cases I'm forced to do it myself anyway. And 2) There is no way a professional could take the time to build a car exactly how I want it without me paying them more money than I will ever be able to afford. I'm that annoying customer that stands over your shoulder while you work and asks you a bunch of questions.

 

getting back on track





To my untrained eye - this looks like the most suitable turbo for a setup in the 350 - 400hp range .
What about spoolup on this - what rpm are we going to see some boost ?

 

Depends on the turbine size, Brett. And my comments are totally sequitur with the discussion at-hand.

 

i am starting to have the distinct feeling that in the case of the 3071R, its not just about thats the best match that fits in that location. i'm having strong feelings thateven though we may be off the chart in that turbo, it was chosen intentionally to provide the kind of power/boost modulation that ppl would be happy with on a street car. this falls right in line with what i think CHR is saying....

 

Brettus, you'd need the turbine map to determine that accurately. If there are multiple turbine A/R's available it could vary depending on which you picked.

It is a sexy looking compressor map for our engine though.