olddragger

iTrader: (3)

i am happy with the performance i have now.
i would like to redesign the a/w coolant tank, mount it outside the engine bay, larger capacity and possibly a larger higher flow pump and exchangers with larger pipes that have turbonators inside the tubes --agitating the water flow. shooting for a consistent 10-20 degree above above ambient ability--in the surburbs.
after that i will have room to modify the rb intake box--with plexaglass top insert, fit it after custom cutting. it would be supplied by a cool air supply--not completely sealed.
possibly a 2009 trans!!!!!
I think i am getting delusional.
olddragger

Moon Assad

Funny you should say that Phill. Im thinking of either picking up a blown 4 port or possibly using the one I have and doing a 6 port 6 speed auto swap. Even a 6 port swap out and keeping the 4 speed since its a stronger tranny. gotta cool it dowm some more but it might work.

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

My thoughts were along the same line. Before I jump, I want to see what the feasibility of a 6 port engine with the four speed A/T tranny would be. I know the ECU would have to be changed but how much of the ECU controls the transmission in a six port? Could the Cobb AP be used to make the needed changes to the ECU? I can't see the six speed A/T as a viable alternative in the existing four port car and still keep it operating as intended.

Yea if we can just get the heat under control first these other little things may work out. I am hoping that some of the changes that Ray is doing to my engine will help with the cooling.

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

If my engine ever decides to die, I hope it happens after that 16X is out. Seems like a 16X swap would be more interesting...

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

I'm not sure ether one of us will live that long Every time I talk to someone in the know, the release date gets further away. I don't think I will hold my breath for the 16x.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

phil --you got a secondary radiator now?
OD

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

I own two two extra rads, you would have to ask Ray if he is installing any of them. He still has my car and says he should complete it soon.

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

Talked to Jeff and the Cobb is not able to make the needed changes in the trans selection of a 6 port even if I got a a/t six port. It could be made to work but not like stock and I don't want something I have to explain how to drive it.
Well it was an idea.

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

Bummer! I don't plan on having my engine die any time soon anyway... weather is cooling down noticeably over here, so I survived my third summer (second boosted).

BTW, any word what are they going to release it in if/when they do get around to it?

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

Unofficially, it was scheduled to go into something for a 2011 release date but I understand the engine works fine but they can't cool it sufficiently for a general release. You may see the 16x come out as an experimental hybrid engine to be used for racing in 2010. Of course you know how secretive Mazda is, hell it could come out tomorrow.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

ok i have ditched on one of my "winter mods". This is what I have found.
I installed a thermometer into the a/w coolant tank to measure the coolants temps relative to intake air temps(not maf recorded temps) post intercooler, and engine temps. I was looking for heat soak issues etc. all of this is without the w/m system.
findings:
1- under normal driving conditions the air charge temps and the coolant temp are nearly the same--give or take some tenths of a degree.
2- under full throttle conditions they are not and it acclumulates. The coolant temp will be as much as 5-10 degress cooler than the air charge temps on a single run through 2nd gear and 1/2 third gear. This will occur up until about an air charge tempt of approx 140 degrees. The car starts loosing power when charge temps get to 125F and can be significantly felt at a charge temp of 140F ( i didnt stay there long!) And it takes a good while to cool it back down.
My thoughts on this is that the intercooler itself is too small for all out driving say on a road track --everyday use it is fine--just be aware of the issue.
I did not see any heat soak issues from where the tank is currently mounted.
There is no needed to upgrade the pump or tank unless you upgrade the intercooler and presently i dont know of an option thats available.
Thats it--maybe we can get to work on a bigger intercooler.
once again if you track your car with this package on then--GET A W/M system!
olddragger

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

I ran across the high charge temps a while back but assumed it was because of the desert environment. Ray installed a larger i/c in my car that seemed to take care of the problem but for some reason I loose "prime" on my pump occasionally and the temps go crazy. Now that may correct itself when Ray get done with the rebuild.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

to fix the prime problem all you have to do is to install a tube in the receiving fitting of the coolant tank so that the coolant always covers that source. Then you will never lose prime. Just run a tube down until it is submerged.
AT full throttle it is the intercooler itself (on top of the s/c) that is being overwhelmed--not the 2 heat exchangers in the front of the car.
OD

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

I'll try that prime hose - should work, makes sense. Ray cooled the charge temp down by adding a larger exchanger and changing it's location slightly. It worked for me.

Moon Assad

An idea I had and it might be food for thought Phill. Replace your 4 port engine with a 6 port and adapt your 4 port intake intake setup to fit, just open up the barral valve area to take even more advantage of the port. Ill do your lower intake if you want. I had the plans to do the same thing but im gona see how many more miles I can get out of the stocker. Id say the only thing youd need to keep it running like stock is BIG secoundary injectors. You can re scale them with the cobb. You can spin those hydrolics in the tranny an extra 500 PRMs here or there putting down 280 maybe more. Im sure if you take the proper precotions like extra oil cooler and a good tranny cooler.

morkusyambo

Since we're disconnecting the upper-valve on our 6-ports, aren't we now technically 4-ports as well? Or am I bass-ackwards and the upper-valve is now allways open?

Moon Assad

No, your upper shutter valve increases velocity in a NA setting buy connecting both banks of ports at hight RPM, keeping that valve closed in a boosted application keeps the ports areo dynamic throughout your entire RPM range. Its pretty much useless, if not bad since id, see a little boost spike when it opened. You want to see drop in psi when a port opens, if you see it spike with a SC it meens disruption of flow.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Bastage:
Phil recently spoke about the possibility of putting a 6 port in there. No go... (see comments below)

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, saw that. It sucks. He'd have to get a new ECU and a new transmission I guess.

Hopefully the 16X will be easier, but I doubt it.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

I have yet to install the lower intake manifold in where i eliminated the vdi in entirety. I also smoothed those passageways a good bit--made them a tad larger on the top . also shaved some of the excess aluminum off the entire intake and polished it. It is noticeably lighter--looks better. I was hoping for some phenoic material to make a intake gasket out of when i did put it on, but cant find any yet.
On the intercooler---glad your overall charge temps are good Phil, but when the coolant of the system is cooler than the actual charge temp it means that there is not enough intercooler efficiency to cool the amount of air that is crossing it. This can be slight or it can be large. remember with water it all accumulates and once it saturates it will take a long time to cool back off.
Are you saying that when you are doing full throttle runs your a/w coolant is the same temp as your charge temps? If they are then I need to know what I am doing wrong as we have the same intercooler?
Cant wait to see that baby running again!
OD

Moon Assad

What I was trying to tell ya Phill is there isnt any need to change the ECU or the tranny for that matter. Just gotta modify your intake to handle the extra flow to feed the extra port (hard to explain) its possible and easy to do, for me atleast. When you get your new motor have Charls give you 6 port housings instead of the 4 port ones. The intake will be cake, while you have it appart you should take your tranny to a specialist to instal a shift kit and strainthen it. That alone shouldnt cost you more then $1500. And im sure BHR has the 6 port housings more readealy available then the 4 ports, last time I checked you can get all the 6 port steel housings for $900 or $1000 new, the same price as the 4 ports. Its not a question as to if it would work, it will. That extra port will make your car just as fast as or faster then a 6 speed MT. Just rember to find HUGE secoundary injectors.

Rote8

This can also mean the water is flowing through the inter-cooler too fast, not allowing the water to heat soak in the liquid to air I/C.

Hmmm, how to slow the pump.

joff

Don't bother -- thats a wrong assumption.

Slowing the pump is the opposite of what you want to do. Pettit did the right thing by putting the heat exchangers in parallel to reduce restriction and increase flow rate. I've already tested putting the exchangers in series instead of parallel and it is worse. Unlike positive displacement pumps, centrifugal water pump flow rate drops off dramatically with increased restriction. When talking to Cam about this at 7stock, he knew this all along-- If I was smart I would have saved time and trusted Pettit to have tested this already, but I like to experiment and find things out for myself.

Consider the physics-- at infinite pump flow rate the water becomes a perfect conductor of heat and would be the exact same temperature in the intercooler as in the heat exchangers. There is no such thing as water moving too fast unless you're talking such high flow rates that the pressure in the I/C ruptures the core or significantly increases electrical/alternator load.

As you approach infinite water flow, the heat transfer equation reduces down to just intercooler vs. heat exchanger efficiency. We obviously cannot hit infinite flow rate, but we can asymptotically approach it with bigger pumps. How close we are already to ideal heat transfer with the flow rate we have from the existing pump is unknown, but could be measured by checking water temperature post heat exchangers vs. post I/C. If there is a significant difference, there could be gains in going to a higher flow pump but my guess is that Pettit already tried this and found the sweet spot of cost vs. efficiency.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

nice Joff thanks
Glad we all like to experiment-- i too tried the series hookup--same results!! Also tired bigger heat exchangers up front--actually was a little worst.
OD

Rotr8

iTrader: (2)

Hey Moon have you and Cam tested out those bottom undertray heat exchangers yet?