JimmyBlack

Would I be right in assuming the Injector Latency Primary table on our maps applies to P1 and P2 injectors, whereas the Injector Latency Secondary table applies to the Secondary injectors?

If that's the case, it would make sense to have injectors with identical dead times sharing the same tables. I.e. put Denso Yellows on P1 and P2, and use the different injector on the Secondary where you can control that model of injector with both a dedicated table and scale.

I have a hunch that Bosch and IDs haven't flowed the right numbers in P2 position because they're sharing their Latency (Dead Time) table with the existing Densos, which have completely different values. Scaling won't be able to account for this consistently across different pressures and voltages.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Sec and p2 share same latency tables . (the 4 yellows)


It may be that contributes to it but i have a hunch the stageing has more of an effect . Read my last post again and you will see why.

slash128

How did you determine what they were flowing?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Can't determine it 100% but can get a really good idea from what scaling figure has to be used to get actual vs commanded to line up .

EG with UC yellows in P2 and blues in sec i had them scaled 630 / 620 .
When i swapped them over to UC yellows in sec and blues in P2 i needed 850/620 to get the same effect.
This is without changing latency.

slash128

And the latency lies for blues and yellows are the same? I've only used the same injectors in all 4 positions, i.e.: all uncapped yellows or all ID1Ks with identical scale, I don't think swapping them around would change anything for me. For the most part I hit my targets just fine and tweak where I need with VE.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I used the blues latency table as latency increases as flow increases. With the UC yellows the latency will be even higher values than the blues.
What scaling figure did you use for the the ID 1000s ?

slash128

Currently 1020. So is using the blue latency table for the yellows perhaps playing into this? Even with accounting for the increased flow rates of the uncapped yellows I am thinking they are likely not spot on and may cause discrepency?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

yeah ... there will be ....but i still think the big discrepency is in the stageing , otherwise why did I need to scale the UC yellows differently on the same latency table ????

I too have tuned 4 x UC yellows all on same latency table and to get them to be accurate had to have them scaled to around 730 .

slash128

My first set of uncapped yellows, which were cleaned and flow tested at 820 by injector rehab, I had set to 850 in ATR. My second set, which was a brand new set of yellows that I removed the caps myself, I wound up setting to 900 in ATR. This second set was interim before I went ID1K.

Note: the first set was with a Walbro 255 pump. The second set was with an AutoZone lifetime warranty OE style pump, no mods. ID1Ks currently at 1020 in ATR with same AutoZone fuel pump.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

So what have you been setting VE to ?

yomomspimp06

that's a loaded question isn't it? he probably has different VE numbers while in boost in the upper rpm ranges.


I suppose a screenshot of the VE table would answer that question.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

that's what I suspect ... which does the trick as far as getting it to work goes .

slash128

I'll post up my VE tables tomorrow. I was busy today detailing the car and taking photos

yomomspimp06

dude! post those photos! your new sig is gorgeous!

yomomspimp06

and I love the hashtags....I had to make one myself
#rotangklan

slash128

Thx man! I'm still going thru them but will post some up

JimmyBlack

Slash, did you use the latency table provided by ID on their website under the plug 'n' play section? It's in the downloadable spread sheet for Mazda RX8. If you're using a different one, please post it up.

We're tuning my Bosch EV14 1k injectors in the P1 position to get the scaling and latency dialled in. The method we're using is to load them up with a 6th gear cruise at about 3.2krpm, where fuelling is from P1s only. The aim here is to get maximum flow while only using P1 injectors for fuelling. Since latency plays a smaller role at higher flows this will allow us to dial in the injector scaling reasonably well. Once that's done, we're going to focus on lower flow rates (idle and various loads below 3.2krpm) while monitoring Voltage and manifold pressure to confirm suitable latencies. We know the generic shape of the latency graph from a few other injector latency tables (Denso red, yellow and ID1k), so we can use this to extrapolate a curve for the Bosch that should be relatively accurate. It's quite a lot of f'ing about, but we're learning as we go.

The reason we're going through all this is because Bosch don't have a suitable latency table that we can use. As it happens, the ID1k injectors appear to show very similar latency characteristics to the Bosch EV14s, so we'll start by using the ID1k latency table and only change it if there are some anomalies with the tune.

slash128

I did use the table provided on the ID website, but multiplied the values by 1000. Take a look at the third tab 'Sheet1' in this attachment.

JimmyBlack

Yes, these are the figures I've used. Sounds like ME and AP both use microseconds.

Currently have P1 scaling at 1050 (will be different from your ID1ks). About to log the results of this tune after dinner. Hoping it'll be bang on so I can start logging boost with the new turbo. ****, it's been a long time coming. This is worse than the case of blue ball I had when I first started dating my wife.

JimmyBlack

So "results after dinner" turned into 1 month of tuning and logging...it was always a gamble trying to get the larger injectors working in the P1, especially with unknown scale and latency values. In the end (after about 80 different tunes) I was unable to get them dialed in. The problem is that with unknown scaling and latency values, you can start with any fixed scaling value and adjust the latency to make it work reasonably well, then try a completely different scaling value (say 20% more less than previous one) and adjust the latency to make this new scaling value work reasonably well also. Ultimately I couldn't find a sweet spot where I was confident that scaling was correct, and I didn't want to correct the scaling value by adjusting other areas of the tune. So.....I'm now moving the Bosch to Secondary position, like normal people do. I'll then be able to get an accurate scaling value. Potentially I could go back to using them in the P1 position after that to dial in the latency table, but this means re-wiring the injector plugs, and I'm way over it by now. Also, having large injectors in P1 with stock injectors in other positions hasn't been proven to work by anyone, so there's no guarantee that this would work nicely in the long term anyway.

I just want my boost back.

I'll be putting yellows into the P1 and swapping the Bosch injectors to the Secondary position this week and running a few trial tunes with Brett. Hopefully be hitting 350g/sec by the end of this coming weekend. Watch this space...

Williard

iTrader: (18)

I swapped the reds with yellows and all the yellows with blues and it's worked very well so far.
+1 for Brett he's an awesome tuner.

Travis

JimmyBlack

In hindsight, yellows and blues would have been the least complicated path, but that type of path just doesn't sit well with me

I was hitting about 330g/sec of airflow with the stock injectors, so since your injectors flow at least 20% more, they should be good for at least 390g/sec.

....hey sneaky guy, where's your build thread!?!?!?!?

Williard

iTrader: (18)

Incomplete but around.

Why does it not sit well with you I'm curious?

Travis

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Yeah I don't see the point of messing with the P1's unless you already have the car dialed in and need more fuel. For me, I am happy with the way the car performs for now so I won't be messing with injectors any time soon.

Williard

iTrader: (18)

Which injectors ya got 9k?

Travis