mysql

The MM turbo beats the SC even in those situations. The only time the SC wins if you're in 2,000 rpm where you're basically lugging the engine.


Therefor you're familiar with how a peaky small turbo feels. The thing is, I've talked to people who own greddy turbo RX-8's and they don't even know how much difference a boost controller makes, or what tweaking it can do for spool time. The characteristics of the turbo isn't set in stone. You can define some of how it reacts. For example, you can make the turbo spool gradually, or you can make it kick in a big rush. Just turn a **** and it changes.


Yeah, you apparently haven't tried out the 3071R. It feels like a big engine too. It's not peaky, it gives you power when you accelerate. There is zero, I repeat, ZERO spool time. I'll admit if you're driving around at 40 mph in 6th gear, it might take a half second to get boost, but you have to be trying hard to do that. Normal persons driving a RX-8 will be 3k and higher, and at that point boost is instantaneous, and climbs along with throttle usage. It's nice to hit 11 psi while still at 3,xxx rpm and carry that to redline.



We already know it takes more power to spin the SC than it takes to spin the turbo. So assuming you could do an apples to apples comparison, the SC would always lose.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps I worded it wrong. Every 1/10's you "lose" on the launch is 2/10 at the other end. It doesn't matter how you lose it, traction, lag, wrong RPM, etc...

Cheers,
Hymee.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Where do you think I live, Greenland?

I live in Phoenix. My car is a daily driver and has 77k miles on it.
To get to an "open road" here, you need to drive for an hour.
There are 17 stop lights in the 4 mile drive from my house to the freeway.
We have the fourth worst traffic in the nation.

I never drive at 2000 RPM.

At a light, I push in the clutch, put it in first and rev it to 3200 - 3500 or so and slip it until I am moving.

So why, exactly, would a turbo "lose 1/10" on a launch?

Are you telling me a dragger with an S/C is going to launch at 2000 RPM?!?

You guys are really reaching.

I suppose that you would have a different perspective if you had seat time in the options, but even from a theoretical standpoint, you are really pushing the limits of common sense.

Razz1

I'm eating popcorn and

ahhh...

Rocketman1976

Like I said earlier, on youtube there is videos of a Greddy turbo'd RX-8 that shows his dyno making 276 rwhp, then he shows his 1/4 mile runs 13.10-13.4's he even showed once that he ran a 13.9 and found out he had a leak and was losing boost(its the black rx-8 with goldish rims that I'm sure many of you have seen on youtube). Then there is Pettit 1/4 mile runs on there as well, and they ran 13.6-13.9. So if you have a boost leak in your Standard Greddy turbo kit you will run the same as a Pettit SC'd RX-8... Thats going by those videos which are a form of a real world comparison.

I have not seen one SC'd RX-8 video with anything better than a 13.6

On Dragtimes.com the Greddy guy gets 107 mph, 103 mph and 98 which is when he had the leak, the Pettit gets 99 mph, here is the link
http://www.dragtimes.com/Mazda--RX-8-Drag-Racing.html

Dragtimes.com is where people can post their times and they also usually post a copy of their slip.

sosonic

Without any information on setup. That is still pretty damn close. The Greddy turbo in 13.10-13.4 range and Pettit SC 13.9-13.6 range

So there is nothing in that which is definitive. Such a small difference can easily be accounted for in difference of the driver, conditions, tires, etc... With such a tight range, the Pettit SC can beat the Greddy turbo in a drag race and the opposite. That would be more of a driver's race. Considering that the Greddy torque advantage (though it's HP that moves the car) is suppose to be so massive, the result here is strange (well actually not to me).

Another point is if no significant advantage is being showed in a drag setup, there would be less of any advantage in a street setup and then you have to consider the other characteristics of a SuperCharger in the mix.

With all this turbo guy talk, you gotta show some blowing away of a SC in which driver and condition would not be much of a factor.

However, I DOUBT we will see a turbo kit do that (well anytime soon). And all those other "conditions" are gonna be killer X factors. You are going to have to put some serious money into OTHER parts of your car, besides FI, and then have massive HP to obtain a significant drag time advantage. A lot of people will be aiming at a certain HP point, so they are not going to go that "extra".

Running around telling people that my kit got me a 13.4 and that kit got a 13.6 is not time to celebrate, break out the champagne, and brag about indisputable superiority.

Still, I would love to see more of these real world comparisons between the SC and turbo kits. It's just plain fun. As times sink towards mid 12s... Well the RX-8s and their Pro-Tuner kits can be proud, and get some of the respect the RX-7s have.

california style

Ah, but the question is if you could, what WOULD you have. So ownership is not only irrelevant its obviously biased as most owners will just vote for what they have (unless extremely disappointed...and so far most FI people seem very happy with whatever they have).

My point was that regardless of arguing, both camps are attractive to future owners in roughly equal measures. (and as ownership has so far shown, both camps are generally happy with the results). Hopefully with improvements coming along such as yours to the Greddy kit, Pettit's kit improving with age, and Hymee' launching soon, things can only get better for everyone.

mysql

No, what he's shown is the half assed greddy kit that can't power the car past 7k rpm and has the least torque gain still beat it (The greddy turbo result shown in the dyno graph above is legit, but not the usual result from that kit).

I gained approx 30 whp 40 torque going from the greddy to the 3071R with the same boost level.

But regardless, I agree that we can't argue pure numbers without knowing the exact car setups for the same reason someone beating a turbo RX-8 can't say he could beat ALL turbo RX-8's.

Rocketman1976

The comparison you should use is the best time they both got, which is 13.1 and 13.6.
I didnt say it was a giant difference but look at the cost, the Greddy Turbo with all the fixes would cost you about $4000 and the pettit is $6500 and you lose to the Greddy by 5 car lengths... every 1/10 of a second is a car length approx. I wouldn't want to pay $2500 more and lose by 5 cars. Remember thats a base Greddy, if you spend $5500 on the MM greddy you would walk away from the Pettit for still $1000+ cheaper, you would likely get a 12.5-12.7 and thats 10 car lengths...

A big factor is as mysql said, he changed out his turbo and now makes more power, on kits like the PTP you can make 300 hp or 380 if you choose to set it up that way. The ability to choose your HP is a big buying factor for me.

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

I'd LOVE to see that.

Rote8

I like "Wheeee" in gear better than "Psssffft" when shifting.
I also like to keep under hood temps down by not routing the exhaust back up to the top of the engine.
I would like a fresh air intake that works with FI (most turbo owners would like it too).

That may be a job for someone with some flex duct and/or the Revi Ram air as one of the Pettit owners has done.

Seriously, this debate is good.

mysql

Mine makes zero sound now that I'm recirculating the BOV. Good if you like stealth, I guess.


The turbo actually cools the exhaust temp. So it's not as hot as you might think, but cooling exhaust isn't a good thing. If heat underhood is an issue, you just ceramic coat the piping. Tada, no heat.


It's as easy as fitting a maf bung in a pipe and routing it through the VFAD hole in the front of the car.

Rocketman1976

Fresh air intake for FI, The PTP intake filter is in the front clip of the car above the bumper.

The vote graph is starting to make sense now.

staticlag

I always figured that having a CAI wouldn't matter since anyone serious about turbo performance would have a vented hood anyways

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Vented hoods take heat out - they are lousy at bringing air in.
Don't you remember the old tVon/macc11 thread?

I'll snap some pics of what I've done when Niki brings the camera back tonight.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

^ link?

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Is the camera being used for more avatars?? J/k

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I've actually worn that old Sony out. Its been dropped into hot tubs and pools, had people roll over it, dropped off of the back of a moving snowmobile at 12,000 feet and just generally abused.
However, today it is just being used for architectural photography.

Red Devil

Actually, I don't think anyone - to a certain extent - really understood what anyone else was saying. Mac never stated the raised hood mod didn't work, just that the air at some points wasn't flowing the way many were asserting.

What was funny, was when a friend that's an engineer and has worked on various Nascar, F1, IRL, and Lola efforts for the past 25 years agreed with his analysis of what was really happening.

rotarygod

It's a new day. I'm feeling a bit more controversial. I think I'll argue in favor of nitrous today. Forced induction sucks! It's expensive. It's parasitic. It's heavy. It contributes to global warming, etc. Discuss...

Spinning Sushi

iTrader: (21)

Whatever happened to....

Rocketman1976

Originally Posted by rotarygod
It's a new day. I'm feeling a bit more controversial. I think I'll argue in favor of nitrous today. Forced induction sucks! It's expensive. It's parasitic. It's heavy. It contributes to global warming, etc. Discuss...

Whatever happened to....

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotarygod
Everytime someone tells me that global warming is manmade, I go outside and let my catless rotary idle senselessly for 2 hours. I hate the cold.

Rootski

iTrader: (1)

omg u will blow motor wit da NOS

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I live my life a 1/4 of a mile at a time.

Its not the RX-8 doesn't have enough fluids/gases to refill every 20th time you step on the go pedal.

rotarygod

I'm getting a bit too warm today. Time to cool it down a bit.