How to make your Renesis turbo or SC engine last
12-04-2009, 11:46 AM
#51
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Cool. So ceramic seals could also benefit a stock rebuilt motor that gets tracked. Not sure if the cost is worth it though. But I have seen some pics where the apex seals came apart on stock motors.
12-04-2009, 12:10 PM
#52
Mazda doesn't intend for anyone to pre-mix
I don't know any top Renesis engine builders jumping to 09 or even recommending
which is my real implication; stop futzing around trying to do this low cost on your own and align yourself with a top Renesis expert, who will also likely be heavily experienced with rotary engines in general. Otherwise you're chasing your own tail trying to figure out what they already experienced firsthand many times over. If you play your cards right, which means listening and asking the right questions - most importantly not coming here and blabbing all their wisdom and knowledge publicly - you'll learn and understand more yourself than 99.9% of the intrawebz wannabe debate experts here. An expertly built engine for your application will run $6000 -$7000 USD and short of you having a tuning or supporting part malfunction will last a long time
the key is figuring out who's real and who wants you to think they're real. IMO there are only two, maybe three, "real" Renesis race engine experts in the USA. Since you're down under the choices are likely slimmer still
I don't know any top Renesis engine builders jumping to 09 or even recommending
which is my real implication; stop futzing around trying to do this low cost on your own and align yourself with a top Renesis expert, who will also likely be heavily experienced with rotary engines in general. Otherwise you're chasing your own tail trying to figure out what they already experienced firsthand many times over. If you play your cards right, which means listening and asking the right questions - most importantly not coming here and blabbing all their wisdom and knowledge publicly - you'll learn and understand more yourself than 99.9% of the intrawebz wannabe debate experts here. An expertly built engine for your application will run $6000 -$7000 USD and short of you having a tuning or supporting part malfunction will last a long time
the key is figuring out who's real and who wants you to think they're real. IMO there are only two, maybe three, "real" Renesis race engine experts in the USA. Since you're down under the choices are likely slimmer still
And spending nz$12000 on getting a US built motor here that may be a great NA motor (not even specd for FI) is not an option
So yes , I do have to keep futzing around on here getting advice and suggestions .
12-04-2009, 12:18 PM
#53
And for guys running on the street that are never going to push the boost up or track their car , the risk is minimal if they do as you suggest .
Others who do push things would be wise to do the seals at the first rebuild or even do it before they have to rebuild - because there is still a very high risk of a detonation event .
12-04-2009, 12:31 PM
#54
For my latest rebuild I needed :
All the irons (front one was already cracked from earlier damage) around nz$2400
1 housing approx. nz$800
1 rotor nz$1000
+ all the gaskets and seals etc nz$1600
+Esmeril seals nz$700
Luckily I had all the housings and irons so only needed the rotor but if I had to buy all that a new motor would have been a much better option.
12-04-2009, 09:58 PM
#55
more like what you want to hear
other than apex seal type and clearances there aren't any differences between NA and FI on the Renesis short block build
going with the deeper 13B apex seals and rotor apex groove machining should be a must-have for an FI application
I personally would recommend Rohan @ Guru for your build. They have some nice Renesis stuff in the works ....
.
other than apex seal type and clearances there aren't any differences between NA and FI on the Renesis short block build
going with the deeper 13B apex seals and rotor apex groove machining should be a must-have for an FI application
I personally would recommend Rohan @ Guru for your build. They have some nice Renesis stuff in the works ....
.
12-04-2009, 10:41 PM
#56
You Dumbass!!!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 719
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I saw you mentioned Rohan @ Guru in your last post, are the any other you would recommend?
12-05-2009, 02:07 AM
#59
Life begins @ 30 psi
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 1,745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also, and don't take this the wrong way because I'm not trying to be a dick... but do you even have an FI RX-8 Team? I thought you drove a naturally aspirated car.
12-05-2009, 02:19 AM
#60
For the USA:
Daryl Drummond
Daryl Drummond Enterprises
http://web.mac.com/emmanuelmunoz/drummond/About_Me.html
Sylvan Tremblay
SpeedSource Inc
http://www.speedsourceinc.com/
Rick Engman
Downing/Atlanta-Mazmart
http://www.mazmart.com/history.html
Daryl Drummond
Daryl Drummond Enterprises
http://web.mac.com/emmanuelmunoz/drummond/About_Me.html
Sylvan Tremblay
SpeedSource Inc
http://www.speedsourceinc.com/
Rick Engman
Downing/Atlanta-Mazmart
http://www.mazmart.com/history.html
12-05-2009, 02:25 AM
#61
I've heard from multiple people that deeper apex seals are difficult/impossible with the Renesis rotors because you have to remove so much material it causes failures. I was originally planning to go with 3mm seals for my new engine but they are deeper and I was told it would not work with a Renesis rotor.
no I don't have an FI, no I don't have deeper 13B seals, no I don't even run an internally modified engine (yet, big plans for the future), no you don't have to put any faith in me, no it's not any skin off my back if you believe whatever you want
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-05-2009 at 02:33 AM.
12-05-2009, 02:44 AM
#62
Life begins @ 30 psi
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 1,745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I never specified 3mm seals, you did, and what multiple people? Hopefully not forum debate specialists ...
no I don't have an FI, no I don't have deeper 13B seals, no I don't even run an internally modified engine (yet, big plans for the future), no you don't have to put any faith in me, no it's not any skin off my back if you believe whatever you want
.
no I don't have an FI, no I don't have deeper 13B seals, no I don't even run an internally modified engine (yet, big plans for the future), no you don't have to put any faith in me, no it's not any skin off my back if you believe whatever you want
.
Presumably a "forum debate specialist" would be someone who doesn't build motors, doesn't own a forced induction car, and has a stock engine posting about how too many people who don't know what they are talking about are posting in the thread.
12-05-2009, 09:07 AM
#64
I've heard from multiple people that deeper apex seals are difficult/impossible with the Renesis rotors because you have to remove so much material it causes failures. I was originally planning to go with 3mm seals for my new engine but they are deeper and I was told it would not work with a Renesis rotor. What are you basing the "must-have" comment on? Do you know someone using deeper seals with a Renesis?
Also, and don't take this the wrong way because I'm not trying to be a dick... but do you even have an FI RX-8 Team? I thought you drove a naturally aspirated car.
Also, and don't take this the wrong way because I'm not trying to be a dick... but do you even have an FI RX-8 Team? I thought you drove a naturally aspirated car.
12-05-2009, 02:04 PM
#66
Life begins @ 30 psi
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 1,745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, I was interested in 3mm seals, but apparently the apex seal grooves in the Renesis rotor don't take too kindly with removing that much material. Again, this is what I've heard, but I'm inclined to believe it. I know Brian from BDC has recommended we not use 3mm seals for my motor. I'm going to be using the Esmeril seals as well. I wish there was some more long term data about the seals and how they perform in various situations, but out of the available options I think its likely the most cost-effective useable choice. I wouldn't mind buying Ianetti seals, but they are so goddamn expensive and if they go its even more damaging to the rest of the components than stock seals. Not a good bet for a FI motor being pushed into new realms of boost for the first time.
12-05-2009, 02:21 PM
#67
Just for the record , I would like to document what I think caused my engine failure
Detonation events :
*overoiled the air cleaner one time and detonated briefly on one occassion before I let off
*while tring to "push the limits" one day (IE make over 330whp) I had a detonation event due to insufficient spark .
*While playing around with boost control one day -I was trying to see where to bring in my two stage controller and accidentally boosted way over 200% load (at about 6300rpm) for a few seconds.
*Ran low on fuel and while negotiating on a long righthander at the track it starved and detonated - think this was the final straw.
It was also running hot that day so this would not have helped.
The final destruction came as I was taking a fellow 8 owner for a spin and nailed the throttle 1/2 way through a turn - there was no detonation or fuel starvation - I just think it had had enough and threw in the towel . It was only a few days after the track day where I ran low on fuel.
So as you can see , I did throw a fair bit of abuse at it over the last year and it didn't fail at the first event .
From these experiences I have learned a few things :
*Detonation is going to happen somehow - someday . Especially if you push the boundaries like I have been doing
*You may be OK if you are lucky
*The engine will take more abuse than we give it credit for
*When an apex breaks - you might get away with losing a housing at the least or 1/2 the motor at worst.
Detonation events :
*overoiled the air cleaner one time and detonated briefly on one occassion before I let off
*while tring to "push the limits" one day (IE make over 330whp) I had a detonation event due to insufficient spark .
*While playing around with boost control one day -I was trying to see where to bring in my two stage controller and accidentally boosted way over 200% load (at about 6300rpm) for a few seconds.
*Ran low on fuel and while negotiating on a long righthander at the track it starved and detonated - think this was the final straw.
It was also running hot that day so this would not have helped.
The final destruction came as I was taking a fellow 8 owner for a spin and nailed the throttle 1/2 way through a turn - there was no detonation or fuel starvation - I just think it had had enough and threw in the towel . It was only a few days after the track day where I ran low on fuel.
So as you can see , I did throw a fair bit of abuse at it over the last year and it didn't fail at the first event .
From these experiences I have learned a few things :
*Detonation is going to happen somehow - someday . Especially if you push the boundaries like I have been doing
*You may be OK if you are lucky
*The engine will take more abuse than we give it credit for
*When an apex breaks - you might get away with losing a housing at the least or 1/2 the motor at worst.
Last edited by Brettus; 12-05-2009 at 02:25 PM.
12-05-2009, 06:32 PM
#71
Not unless he was doing it several years ago ...
You can buy Renesis rotors with the deeper cut grooves online from at least one source, but I haven't seen any info on the quality of the tolerances
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-05-2009 at 06:42 PM.
12-05-2009, 07:59 PM
#74
For the USA:
Daryl Drummond
Daryl Drummond Enterprises
http://web.mac.com/emmanuelmunoz/drummond/About_Me.html
Sylvan Tremblay
SpeedSource Inc
http://www.speedsourceinc.com/
Rick Engman
Downing/Atlanta-Mazmart
http://www.mazmart.com/history.html
Daryl Drummond
Daryl Drummond Enterprises
http://web.mac.com/emmanuelmunoz/drummond/About_Me.html
Sylvan Tremblay
SpeedSource Inc
http://www.speedsourceinc.com/
Rick Engman
Downing/Atlanta-Mazmart
http://www.mazmart.com/history.html
The engine builder at Speed Source is David Haskell and he is one of my favorite people in the world. I love Sylvain and their entire operation and would double investment in their efforts if I were running Mazdaspeed Motorsports
.Paul.
