How Kane and Ray build a Ceramic, Ported, Turboed Renesis!!!!
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 417
Likes: 1
From: Dallas, Tx
Just to add my own .02 since people can read this thread and freak out - which is something I was afraid of.
Here are some highlights of "how to blow your motor with a misfire":
- You must be making a LOT of power; I don't think a factory Greddy can do it - somewhere around 330+ g/sec
- You MUST be at or about the torque peak; 330+ past the torque peak isn't gonna do it.
- You must get a misfire from the leading coil with the trailing firing....
All in all it is kinda like finding a needle in a haystack; I just happened to be that lucky; loaded 9-10 PSI on a larger turbo right at the torque peak; got like 2 misfire / detonation events and that was all she wrote; when it goes you will KNOW IT - there is no mistaking what happened. Now as to whether it was dwell or not; I have my opinions but Ray has not yet physically looked at the ignition - so who knows it may have been a wire... but I THINK it is dwell in my case; we shall see.
Here are some highlights of "how to blow your motor with a misfire":
- You must be making a LOT of power; I don't think a factory Greddy can do it - somewhere around 330+ g/sec
- You MUST be at or about the torque peak; 330+ past the torque peak isn't gonna do it.
- You must get a misfire from the leading coil with the trailing firing....
All in all it is kinda like finding a needle in a haystack; I just happened to be that lucky; loaded 9-10 PSI on a larger turbo right at the torque peak; got like 2 misfire / detonation events and that was all she wrote; when it goes you will KNOW IT - there is no mistaking what happened. Now as to whether it was dwell or not; I have my opinions but Ray has not yet physically looked at the ignition - so who knows it may have been a wire... but I THINK it is dwell in my case; we shall see.
You guys messing with turbos and FI are going to discover, sooner or later, that these motors don't respond well to any kind of engine knock when under high loads. They have little to no resiliency to it. Even something simple like a spark blow-out style of misfire (from having too little dwell in a coil under a heavier load and higher RPM) will cause a split-second ripple effect in the motor that will make it catastrophically fail. Basically any kind of "event" that interrupts an otherwise smooth power output of the engine, under heavy loads and high RPM, stands a chance of breaking this thing. It's the reason why I personally stress tuning the engine very conservatively. It's also the reason why I am very critical about the components that are put on these engines with respect to enhancing the power plant. There's crap and then there's good stuff. With respect to the coil Ray sells, I know for fact that the hardware he sells is good and works well at way high loads (well beyond what any of you guys have hit yet!!) especially with a good race plug.
Kane, as stated before, a lack of dwell could've been the culprit but it could also be a myriad of other things; even things only related to ignition. Consider these: crossfire (a massively hot spark jumping across to an adjacent plug wire directly touching the intended plug wire), too much lead ignition advance, too little trail split with respect to the degree of lead ignition advance, too hot of a lead or trail spark plug, RF/EMI noise being spat off the ignition system when under heavy loads that travels down un-shielded wiring and goofs with electronics, etc...
What exactly was broken upon tear down?
B
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 417
Likes: 1
From: Dallas, Tx
I only know what I heard and the end result.
It doesn't matter really any more.
Got it; you have to hit all of those together; and like I said when it goes you know.
I wasn't saying that dwell didn't kill yours - I am just saying what all it takes.
There is no 100% rule that dwell killed mine; and honestly me and Ray may never agree; but we will see when he gets here.
Since you brought it up (and deleted it); but I'll answer the question since others may have it too. Why did Ray "believe me" and not others - well
A) He doesn't believe me 100% because he hasn't seen the coils yet; however we have worked together on numerous occasions and knows that I'm at least halfway decent at this stuff.
B) I have the logs man; I can prove it was ignition signal break-up - timing and AFR's are fine etc...just luck of the draw that I was logging.
This is one of the upsides to my "change one thing at a time rule" - I know when the car ran perfect and I know exactly when it started to have problems - so that helps with diagnosis too.
But at the end of the day - I'll have to have Ray look at my ignition - and then reinstall in new engine as is with just dwell changes before I can prove it was Dwell and not some other misfire related issue.
I wasn't saying that dwell didn't kill yours - I am just saying what all it takes.
There is no 100% rule that dwell killed mine; and honestly me and Ray may never agree; but we will see when he gets here.
Since you brought it up (and deleted it); but I'll answer the question since others may have it too. Why did Ray "believe me" and not others - well
A) He doesn't believe me 100% because he hasn't seen the coils yet; however we have worked together on numerous occasions and knows that I'm at least halfway decent at this stuff.
B) I have the logs man; I can prove it was ignition signal break-up - timing and AFR's are fine etc...just luck of the draw that I was logging.
This is one of the upsides to my "change one thing at a time rule" - I know when the car ran perfect and I know exactly when it started to have problems - so that helps with diagnosis too.
But at the end of the day - I'll have to have Ray look at my ignition - and then reinstall in new engine as is with just dwell changes before I can prove it was Dwell and not some other misfire related issue.
I deleted it because it wasn't necessarily true. I had no basis for that really.
3-wheeler
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,734
Likes: 1
From: Phoenix
While me and Ray agree on most things; like anyone we disagree - the difference is that we keep an open mind and try to avoid absolute statements.... the proof will be in the pudding.
I don't know everything; but I KNOW a few - I KNOW my motor blew due to misfire; I also KNOW that properly dwell-ed BHR coils will light a charge at STUPID rich AFR's with high power turbo's (you can ask J.Cab about that).
Last edited by Kane; Nov 9, 2009 at 08:57 PM.
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 417
Likes: 1
From: Dallas, Tx
cant a weak spark --over time --help cause deposit buildup---which in turn can lead to a more likelyhood of detonation?
Since we have such a large combustion chamber and carry that charge for a comparitivlly long distance cant a weak spark cause a "shockwave" type of "misfire/detonation"?
I am not an expert and I am trying to learn---thats all.
olddragger
Since we have such a large combustion chamber and carry that charge for a comparitivlly long distance cant a weak spark cause a "shockwave" type of "misfire/detonation"?
I am not an expert and I am trying to learn---thats all.
olddragger
The engine i'm on now has had a quite a few instances that may well have killed it uder your scenario also and it has come through that .
That said I do believe it is more fragile than most engines and anyone who has to rebuild an engine for FI would be wise to replace the factory Apex seals with something more robust .
Why ceramics?
Ceramic seals offer a number of benefits. They are kind to the hard chromed surface of the rotor housing and reduce friction as well. They virtually eliminate seal groove wear. They are several times stronger than any steel seal and handle detonation better. They weigh approx 5.5 grams each as compared to 14 grams for steel. That's almost a 2 ounce weight savings on two rotors!! Increased torque, increased reliability and just try to wear these out! Technology has advanced in leaps and bounds over the last 10-15 years. No longer is steel the strongest or first choice for today’s high tech applications. Advanced ceramics have made their way into many Aerospace, Oilfield and Automotive applications with astounding success and now they are available to you in the form of a “SUPER” Apex Seal. Stronger than steel, lighter than steel, less abrasive than steel, less friction, negligible wear, reduced rotating mass, housing friendly and almost unbreakable (save for detonation or engine failure). Is there any other choice?
Ceramic Apex Seals have been approved for the Formula Mazda Series and for good reason.
When you want the best, you get Ceramic Seals.
Ceramic seals offer a number of benefits. They are kind to the hard chromed surface of the rotor housing and reduce friction as well. They virtually eliminate seal groove wear. They are several times stronger than any steel seal and handle detonation better. They weigh approx 5.5 grams each as compared to 14 grams for steel. That's almost a 2 ounce weight savings on two rotors!! Increased torque, increased reliability and just try to wear these out! Technology has advanced in leaps and bounds over the last 10-15 years. No longer is steel the strongest or first choice for today’s high tech applications. Advanced ceramics have made their way into many Aerospace, Oilfield and Automotive applications with astounding success and now they are available to you in the form of a “SUPER” Apex Seal. Stronger than steel, lighter than steel, less abrasive than steel, less friction, negligible wear, reduced rotating mass, housing friendly and almost unbreakable (save for detonation or engine failure). Is there any other choice?
Ceramic Apex Seals have been approved for the Formula Mazda Series and for good reason.
When you want the best, you get Ceramic Seals.
And if they are good enough for Speedsource; well I trust 'em.
Comments on the above:
These motors break under the same stresses of detonation that their peripheral port brethren do.
However, because the seal is supported in its entire orbit, a broken apex seal can remain essentially in place long after the detonation event that broke it.
What it means to "blow an engine" does not mean the same thing on the Renesis as it does on the REW.
Ceramic seals are only marginally more resilient to detonation than the conventional seals.
Surviving detonation is not their primary purpose.
These motors break under the same stresses of detonation that their peripheral port brethren do.
However, because the seal is supported in its entire orbit, a broken apex seal can remain essentially in place long after the detonation event that broke it.
What it means to "blow an engine" does not mean the same thing on the Renesis as it does on the REW.
Ceramic seals are only marginally more resilient to detonation than the conventional seals.
Surviving detonation is not their primary purpose.
MM, would that make it less of a catastrophic failure than the REW brethrens?
Why does the ceramic seal wear less than conventional seals, does anyone know? Is it because of the friction characteristics of ceramic?
Why does the ceramic seal wear less than conventional seals, does anyone know? Is it because of the friction characteristics of ceramic?
http://www.nrsrotorsports.com/specification.html
And if they are good enough for Speedsource; well I trust 'em.
And if they are good enough for Speedsource; well I trust 'em.
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 417
Likes: 1
From: Dallas, Tx
Ceramics will break. Folks I've known that used them destroyed their engines and vowed to never use them again.
Brettus, what power level are you at right now? I'm talking 400+ to the wheels (whatever that is at the crank). I've seen "blip" misfires that flattened corner seal springs, broke end plates at the dowel land, and all sorts of things. Hell, even an ignition rev limiter can do it.
B
Brettus, what power level are you at right now? I'm talking 400+ to the wheels (whatever that is at the crank). I've seen "blip" misfires that flattened corner seal springs, broke end plates at the dowel land, and all sorts of things. Hell, even an ignition rev limiter can do it.
B
#50
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,521
Likes: 11
From: Caput Mundi
Ceramics will break. Folks I've known that used them destroyed their engines and vowed to never use them again.
Brettus, what power level are you at right now? I'm talking 400+ to the wheels (whatever that is at the crank). I've seen "blip" misfires that flattened corner seal springs, broke end plates at the dowel land, and all sorts of things. Hell, even an ignition rev limiter can do it.
B
Brettus, what power level are you at right now? I'm talking 400+ to the wheels (whatever that is at the crank). I've seen "blip" misfires that flattened corner seal springs, broke end plates at the dowel land, and all sorts of things. Hell, even an ignition rev limiter can do it.
B
Originally Posted by Batty
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
Ceramics will break. Folks I've known that used them destroyed their engines and vowed to never use them again.
Brettus, what power level are you at right now? I'm talking 400+ to the wheels (whatever that is at the crank). I've seen "blip" misfires that flattened corner seal springs, broke end plates at the dowel land, and all sorts of things. Hell, even an ignition rev limiter can do it.
B
Brettus, what power level are you at right now? I'm talking 400+ to the wheels (whatever that is at the crank). I've seen "blip" misfires that flattened corner seal springs, broke end plates at the dowel land, and all sorts of things. Hell, even an ignition rev limiter can do it.
B
Do you have any recomendations ?
Temporary hijack!
Ceramic seals are the ultimate for most purposes. Like any seal, they can break under adverse conditions. Any seal that cannot be broken when stressed beyond sensibility is warping and bending (Which allows great leakage and loss of performance). There are 'safe' seals for different purposes; those who should avoid ceramics are those whose budgets don't allow or have tuning fears.
I will go into detail on the pros and cons elsewhere. I can't speak for NRS but Iannetti seals are being used in the 1000 whp (2 rotor) range and living.
Paul.
I will go into detail on the pros and cons elsewhere. I can't speak for NRS but Iannetti seals are being used in the 1000 whp (2 rotor) range and living.
Paul.
Winner of the IMSA World Sports Car Championship,
1994 Team Downing/Atlanta.
3rd in Class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans,
1995 Team Downing/Atlanta.
3rd overall at the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona,
1996 Team Downing/Atlanta.
1st in Class at the 24 Hours of LeMans,
1996 Team Downing/Atlanta.
Hijack over
