Fuel Pump Solution - All Failure Modes
05-16-2014, 12:28 AM
#752
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Does it not fit the circle on the bottom? I just installed the DW200 and it was a pain just to even get the filter, clip, and rubber fitting back on the assembly since the rubber piece pinched by the circle and plastic clip make it a pain to get the filter even on.
05-17-2014, 02:33 PM
#755
I shaved the rubber piece down to one uniform thickness and bored out the center to accommodate the slightly larger filter sock. The plastic piece with the three snaps that fits over the rubber piece was obstructing the filter sock from proper fitment, so i notched it out as not to interfere with the filter sock. You can notch it without destroying the integrity. I did this wall with a rotating grinder.
05-17-2014, 03:15 PM
#756
I shaved the rubber piece down to one uniform thickness and bored out the center to accommodate the slightly larger filter sock. The plastic piece with the three snaps that fits over the rubber piece was obstructing the filter sock from proper fitment, so i notched it out as not to interfere with the filter sock. You can notch it without destroying the integrity. I did this wall with a rotating grinder.
05-18-2014, 08:22 PM
#757
Hybrid Greddy Boosted
DW200 install last week with no modifications required. Try this:
Make sure the pump is aligned in the correct orientation in the inner pump housing, then press the pump fully into the housing. The o-ring catches on the housing, so ensure it's seated correctly when the pump is in it's final position - this may be why Warrior777 had issues with clearance. If the pump's not all the way in the bottom rubber piece will get sandwiched too tight and won't allow the filter to be mounted correctly. Alignment of pump in housing is important to ensure correct fitment of filter, pump and inner pump housing into the outer bottom pump housing.
When clipping on the plastic base to sandwich the rubber piece into place make sure the rubber piece is lined up perfectly. I did this several times before I was happy. Mount the filter after this, and make sure it's pressed right up onto the base of the pump. You need to lift the filter slightly to eyeball this. As you've pressed the filter flat against the pump it will be squashed flat, so you'll need to pinch the sides of the filter gently together while pulling away from the pump to let it revert to it's slightly ballooned shape for better fuel flow through the filter.
Tip: Once install is complete, go for a test drive before re-installing the back seat and metal cover so you can visually inspect for fuel leaks. You'll need to do some high speed turning and braking to really test the seal. That POS plastic cap doesn't come off easy, and it doesn't go on easy either. BTW, silicon spray is not recommended to lube the thread of the cap as it acts more like glue than lubricant with all that petrol about.
DW200 is very quiet - recommended.
Brettus, this install took me WAY too long with lots of head scratching and petrol fumes. Give me a bell if you need to.
Make sure the pump is aligned in the correct orientation in the inner pump housing, then press the pump fully into the housing. The o-ring catches on the housing, so ensure it's seated correctly when the pump is in it's final position - this may be why Warrior777 had issues with clearance. If the pump's not all the way in the bottom rubber piece will get sandwiched too tight and won't allow the filter to be mounted correctly. Alignment of pump in housing is important to ensure correct fitment of filter, pump and inner pump housing into the outer bottom pump housing.
When clipping on the plastic base to sandwich the rubber piece into place make sure the rubber piece is lined up perfectly. I did this several times before I was happy. Mount the filter after this, and make sure it's pressed right up onto the base of the pump. You need to lift the filter slightly to eyeball this. As you've pressed the filter flat against the pump it will be squashed flat, so you'll need to pinch the sides of the filter gently together while pulling away from the pump to let it revert to it's slightly ballooned shape for better fuel flow through the filter.
Tip: Once install is complete, go for a test drive before re-installing the back seat and metal cover so you can visually inspect for fuel leaks. You'll need to do some high speed turning and braking to really test the seal. That POS plastic cap doesn't come off easy, and it doesn't go on easy either. BTW, silicon spray is not recommended to lube the thread of the cap as it acts more like glue than lubricant with all that petrol about.
DW200 is very quiet - recommended.
Brettus, this install took me WAY too long with lots of head scratching and petrol fumes. Give me a bell if you need to.
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Doblegota (01-13-2018)
06-10-2014, 01:18 AM
#759
DW200 install last week with no modifications required. Try this:
Make sure the pump is aligned in the correct orientation in the inner pump housing, then press the pump fully into the housing. The o-ring catches on the housing, so ensure it's seated correctly when the pump is in it's final position - this may be why Warrior777 had issues with clearance. If the pump's not all the way in the bottom rubber piece will get sandwiched too tight and won't allow the filter to be mounted correctly. Alignment of pump in housing is important to ensure correct fitment of filter, pump and inner pump housing into the outer bottom pump housing.
When clipping on the plastic base to sandwich the rubber piece into place make sure the rubber piece is lined up perfectly. I did this several times before I was happy. Mount the filter after this, and make sure it's pressed right up onto the base of the pump. You need to lift the filter slightly to eyeball this. As you've pressed the filter flat against the pump it will be squashed flat, so you'll need to pinch the sides of the filter gently together while pulling away from the pump to let it revert to it's slightly ballooned shape for better fuel flow through the filter.
Tip: Once install is complete, go for a test drive before re-installing the back seat and metal cover so you can visually inspect for fuel leaks. You'll need to do some high speed turning and braking to really test the seal. That POS plastic cap doesn't come off easy, and it doesn't go on easy either. BTW, silicon spray is not recommended to lube the thread of the cap as it acts more like glue than lubricant with all that petrol about.
DW200 is very quiet - recommended.
Brettus, this install took me WAY too long with lots of head scratching and petrol fumes. Give me a bell if you need to.
Make sure the pump is aligned in the correct orientation in the inner pump housing, then press the pump fully into the housing. The o-ring catches on the housing, so ensure it's seated correctly when the pump is in it's final position - this may be why Warrior777 had issues with clearance. If the pump's not all the way in the bottom rubber piece will get sandwiched too tight and won't allow the filter to be mounted correctly. Alignment of pump in housing is important to ensure correct fitment of filter, pump and inner pump housing into the outer bottom pump housing.
When clipping on the plastic base to sandwich the rubber piece into place make sure the rubber piece is lined up perfectly. I did this several times before I was happy. Mount the filter after this, and make sure it's pressed right up onto the base of the pump. You need to lift the filter slightly to eyeball this. As you've pressed the filter flat against the pump it will be squashed flat, so you'll need to pinch the sides of the filter gently together while pulling away from the pump to let it revert to it's slightly ballooned shape for better fuel flow through the filter.
Tip: Once install is complete, go for a test drive before re-installing the back seat and metal cover so you can visually inspect for fuel leaks. You'll need to do some high speed turning and braking to really test the seal. That POS plastic cap doesn't come off easy, and it doesn't go on easy either. BTW, silicon spray is not recommended to lube the thread of the cap as it acts more like glue than lubricant with all that petrol about.
DW200 is very quiet - recommended.
Brettus, this install took me WAY too long with lots of head scratching and petrol fumes. Give me a bell if you need to.
Just did mine (DW300) today .... no issues at all . Lubricated the end of the pump that slides through the 'o' ring and pushed it in , fitted new oem filter . All good .
I seem to remember fitting a smaller 'o' ring last time for the Walbro so that was still there ................this could be the issue others are having ......
DW is a lot quieter than the Walbro .....
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Doblegota (01-13-2018)
07-12-2014, 09:31 PM
#760
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Dw200
well...on track with the stock pump my car would suffer from fuel starvation either during a hard left cornering or on the long straights after a hard left corner, with almost tank of fuel.
after changing to the DW200 pump, things get a little better but i would still suffer the same issue with 3/4 tank of fuel, the fuel pressure would drop to zero when the fuel starvation happens. after letting the car cool down, the 3/4 tank of fuel actually becomes slightly above 1/2 tank, is this normal? there's no fuel leak at all.
what's next to 'solve' my 3/4 tank starvation issue? i hope to at least get to about 1/4 tank before it happen. install a 2nd pump in the passenger side?
after changing to the DW200 pump, things get a little better but i would still suffer the same issue with 3/4 tank of fuel, the fuel pressure would drop to zero when the fuel starvation happens. after letting the car cool down, the 3/4 tank of fuel actually becomes slightly above 1/2 tank, is this normal? there's no fuel leak at all.
what's next to 'solve' my 3/4 tank starvation issue? i hope to at least get to about 1/4 tank before it happen. install a 2nd pump in the passenger side?
07-12-2014, 10:46 PM
#761
well...on track with the stock pump my car would suffer from fuel starvation either during a hard left cornering or on the long straights after a hard left corner, with almost tank of fuel.
after changing to the DW200 pump, things get a little better but i would still suffer the same issue with 3/4 tank of fuel, the fuel pressure would drop to zero when the fuel starvation happens. after letting the car cool down, the 3/4 tank of fuel actually becomes slightly above 1/2 tank, is this normal? there's no fuel leak at all.
what's next to 'solve' my 3/4 tank starvation issue? i hope to at least get to about 1/4 tank before it happen. install a 2nd pump in the passenger side?
after changing to the DW200 pump, things get a little better but i would still suffer the same issue with 3/4 tank of fuel, the fuel pressure would drop to zero when the fuel starvation happens. after letting the car cool down, the 3/4 tank of fuel actually becomes slightly above 1/2 tank, is this normal? there's no fuel leak at all.
what's next to 'solve' my 3/4 tank starvation issue? i hope to at least get to about 1/4 tank before it happen. install a 2nd pump in the passenger side?
Did you remember to install the siphon tube when you replaced the unit ?
07-12-2014, 10:55 PM
#762
I've had the same problems as you. I've gone through a Walbro and now a DW200 and still the same problems.
You can change your pump and clean your sock as many times as you want but at the end of the day the big donut filter sealed inside the housing that everybody forgets about is still full of crap.
I drove all the way from Toronto Canada to Florida in the pissing cold rain and as soon as I drove through Orlando at 30C+ temps nothing but problems the whole 2 weeks I was there. As I was driving home and I hit the cooler air in the mountains of Virginia the problem disappeared.
When the gas in the tank gets hot and causes the gunk in the donut filter to swell, it will block the flow. Check out the pic link and you will see the fuel filter just choked with crap. This will also cause your fuel pump to prematurely fail.
You will always have the 1/4 tank BS after up grading the pump. We are trying to make a stock fuel system flow way more fuel than it was designed to do and it cant lift the fuel into the assembly fast enough so it will suck it self dry. Either put in a Series 2 assembly in and it may improve and be done with it or go full returned system with a swirl pot/ surge tank using a stock pump as a lift pump.
I have a brand new oem fuel assembly in right now and I've had it on the track and to my surprise no issues with high G left turns or flat out straights. Go figure.
This is what I suffered from and I believe Brettus you are too. Time for a full return system.
RX8Club.com - scottish's Album: Fuel pump mods - Picture
You can change your pump and clean your sock as many times as you want but at the end of the day the big donut filter sealed inside the housing that everybody forgets about is still full of crap.
I drove all the way from Toronto Canada to Florida in the pissing cold rain and as soon as I drove through Orlando at 30C+ temps nothing but problems the whole 2 weeks I was there. As I was driving home and I hit the cooler air in the mountains of Virginia the problem disappeared.
When the gas in the tank gets hot and causes the gunk in the donut filter to swell, it will block the flow. Check out the pic link and you will see the fuel filter just choked with crap. This will also cause your fuel pump to prematurely fail.
You will always have the 1/4 tank BS after up grading the pump. We are trying to make a stock fuel system flow way more fuel than it was designed to do and it cant lift the fuel into the assembly fast enough so it will suck it self dry. Either put in a Series 2 assembly in and it may improve and be done with it or go full returned system with a swirl pot/ surge tank using a stock pump as a lift pump.
I have a brand new oem fuel assembly in right now and I've had it on the track and to my surprise no issues with high G left turns or flat out straights. Go figure.
This is what I suffered from and I believe Brettus you are too. Time for a full return system.
RX8Club.com - scottish's Album: Fuel pump mods - Picture
Last edited by scottish; 07-13-2014 at 08:43 AM.
07-13-2014, 08:28 AM
#763
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Brettus - ya, everything connected correctly.
scottish - so you gutted out the fuel filter and now it's empty and not running any filter? I've had 2 stock fuel assembly failed on me during track (tank was almost full) and both of them barely 2 months old. First one would lean out my AFR at high rpm and second one simply died and i can't start my car at all.
scottish - so you gutted out the fuel filter and now it's empty and not running any filter? I've had 2 stock fuel assembly failed on me during track (tank was almost full) and both of them barely 2 months old. First one would lean out my AFR at high rpm and second one simply died and i can't start my car at all.
07-13-2014, 08:45 AM
#764
yup I gutted the fuel pump assembly to make it into a lift pump in prep for a return system.
You've had two brand new never been used Mazda OEM straight from mazda fail or are these used or third party airtex like oem assemblies from the local parts store?
I took my buddies series 2 R3 on the track with the same amount of fuel in it and it didn't have any issues at all.
This so called fix we are led to believe by plopping in a higher flowing pump to fix the fuel starvation issues is complete and utter BS. all we have done is created even more fuel delivery issues using an assembly that was not designed to flow that amount of fuel period.
I even spoke to the OP of this thread while he was tuning my car and he said this swap in fuel pump fix doesn't work and that he himself doesn't run it for these very reasons.
I would personally and wish I did bite the bullet and put in a series 2 assembly before I started swapping in higher flowing pumps and saved myself all the hassles that I have been plagued with for the past year or so.
You've had two brand new never been used Mazda OEM straight from mazda fail or are these used or third party airtex like oem assemblies from the local parts store?
I took my buddies series 2 R3 on the track with the same amount of fuel in it and it didn't have any issues at all.
This so called fix we are led to believe by plopping in a higher flowing pump to fix the fuel starvation issues is complete and utter BS. all we have done is created even more fuel delivery issues using an assembly that was not designed to flow that amount of fuel period.
I even spoke to the OP of this thread while he was tuning my car and he said this swap in fuel pump fix doesn't work and that he himself doesn't run it for these very reasons.
I would personally and wish I did bite the bullet and put in a series 2 assembly before I started swapping in higher flowing pumps and saved myself all the hassles that I have been plagued with for the past year or so.
Last edited by scottish; 07-13-2014 at 09:48 AM.
07-13-2014, 02:56 PM
#766
This so called fix we are led to believe by plopping in a higher flowing pump to fix the fuel starvation issues is complete and utter BS. all we have done is created even more fuel delivery issues using an assembly that was not designed to flow that amount of fuel period.
.
For NA and lower power FI , it was oldragger who put us all on to a good solution (S2 assy) way back . This was not adopted as well as it should have been at the time because of this thread.
For high power FI it seems there isn't an easy solution .
However , I'm trying some in tank ideas ATM and hope to come back with something soon.
Last edited by Brettus; 07-13-2014 at 03:21 PM.
07-13-2014, 07:02 PM
#767
If you look at the pic you can see all the crap that has been removed.
I agree . Just another one of the ops' many incorrect theories down the gurgler .
For NA and lower power FI , it was oldragger who put us all on to a good solution (S2 assy) way back . This was not adopted as well as it should have been at the time because of this thread.
For high power FI it seems there isn't an easy solution .
However , I'm trying some in tank ideas ATM and hope to come back with something soon.
For NA and lower power FI , it was oldragger who put us all on to a good solution (S2 assy) way back . This was not adopted as well as it should have been at the time because of this thread.
For high power FI it seems there isn't an easy solution .
However , I'm trying some in tank ideas ATM and hope to come back with something soon.
As for applications like yours with higher HP were it is imperative to maintain fuel pressure. I would say use your stock pump as a lift pump to feed something along the lines like a Radium FPR surge Tank and it will cure your reliability issues with fuel pressure.
oldragger got it right a long time ago but it has been over looked by the same old *** issues by the people who are chasing the $100 fix and the quest to say they have a modified fuel pump for street use. It is a complete waste of time and money.
Adding this in from Brettus thread cause this is exactly what goes on inside a series 1 assembly with a high flow pump installed.
I think I have figured out what is happening in the video above .
*At 1/4 of a tank the fuel level is such that it wont fill the pump bowl by sloshing over the top .
*Also at 1/4 tank there is no help from the siphon as fuel is probably gone from the other side of the tank and is all concentrated on the pump side .
*When you take a corner at high gs fuel is dragged away from the bottom of the bowl .
*The one way valve at the botttom of the bowl stops fuel from draining from the bowl but if you start accelerating while 1/2 way round the corner ,as you do, you are using up the fuel inside the bowl.
*When you accelerate away from the corner the fuel is still not able to slosh over the top of the bowl so has to be drawn through the one way valve .
*At full noise my pump would be draining that half full bowl at a higher rate than what can be sucked through that very small check valve .
* So even though there is fuel there .... it is not getting through the hole fast enough and eventually the pump starves .
Another possibility is that it's just that the check valve is uncovered the whole time , both while cornering and accelerating ..... But I'm leaning more toward the check valve being too small as the problem doesn't seem to appear during straight line acceleration at 1/4 tank.
Realising this is what is happening is half of the battle ..... I have devised and implemented a solution to this and will be able to test it once my tank gets down to that level again ..... Fingers crossed !
*At 1/4 of a tank the fuel level is such that it wont fill the pump bowl by sloshing over the top .
*Also at 1/4 tank there is no help from the siphon as fuel is probably gone from the other side of the tank and is all concentrated on the pump side .
*When you take a corner at high gs fuel is dragged away from the bottom of the bowl .
*The one way valve at the botttom of the bowl stops fuel from draining from the bowl but if you start accelerating while 1/2 way round the corner ,as you do, you are using up the fuel inside the bowl.
*When you accelerate away from the corner the fuel is still not able to slosh over the top of the bowl so has to be drawn through the one way valve .
*At full noise my pump would be draining that half full bowl at a higher rate than what can be sucked through that very small check valve .
* So even though there is fuel there .... it is not getting through the hole fast enough and eventually the pump starves .
Another possibility is that it's just that the check valve is uncovered the whole time , both while cornering and accelerating ..... But I'm leaning more toward the check valve being too small as the problem doesn't seem to appear during straight line acceleration at 1/4 tank.
Realising this is what is happening is half of the battle ..... I have devised and implemented a solution to this and will be able to test it once my tank gets down to that level again ..... Fingers crossed !
There you go. This is exactly what is happening.
The check valve is not big enough to support the need for more fuel to be supplied to the bigger fuel pump and the venturi syphon is to small for that amount of flow that the pump is trying to push. The pump starts to suck air and the venturi stops working. This is all going on inside the assembly before we even bring into consideration the fuel sloshing around inside the tank at the same time.
Plus I would bet your donut filter in the assembly is pretty much done for and blocking the flow aswell.
Maybe some tank foam strategically placed around the assembly?
A while back I contacted Aeromotive to see if they would sell me or point me in the right direction about there venturi syphon assembly that they use in there replacement pump assemblies but to no avail.
Great info here so I'm going to drag this over to the fuel pump thread and edit my post there.
The check valve is not big enough to support the need for more fuel to be supplied to the bigger fuel pump and the venturi syphon is to small for that amount of flow that the pump is trying to push. The pump starts to suck air and the venturi stops working. This is all going on inside the assembly before we even bring into consideration the fuel sloshing around inside the tank at the same time.
Plus I would bet your donut filter in the assembly is pretty much done for and blocking the flow aswell.
Maybe some tank foam strategically placed around the assembly?
A while back I contacted Aeromotive to see if they would sell me or point me in the right direction about there venturi syphon assembly that they use in there replacement pump assemblies but to no avail.
Great info here so I'm going to drag this over to the fuel pump thread and edit my post there.
THE DIFINITIVE FIX FOR FUEL CUT ON HIGH G LEFTS AND ANY RANDOM LOSS OF FUEL PRESSURE IN A LOWER END HP BOOSTED, STREET, LIGHT TRACK DUTY CAR IS TO ONLY USE A BRAND NEW SLIGHTLY MODDED TO FIT SERIES 2 FUEL PUMP ASSEMBLY. DO NOT PUT HIGH FLOW PUMPS IN A SERIES 1 ASSEMBLY IT DOES NOT WORK. I HAVE DONE IT TWICE NOW AND IT STILL DOESN'T WORK!
PS don't tell RXeckless I have said any of this or he will slap me. The old fart has been telling me this for years.
Last edited by scottish; 07-14-2014 at 07:25 PM.
07-15-2014, 07:13 AM
#770
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by the way, seems like some of us here suffer starvation due to high temperatures? meaning 95F ambient will make the starvation surface more easily? as we know on track temp can be very high, will hot fuel make it worse and starvation sets in earlier?
my ambient here is about 95F and temp can raise to about 105F or more in the car!
07-15-2014, 03:53 PM
#771
me too...i want to stay returnless and in tank. Brettus all the best man!
by the way, seems like some of us here suffer starvation due to high temperatures? meaning 95F ambient will make the starvation surface more easily? as we know on track temp can be very high, will hot fuel make it worse and starvation sets in earlier?
my ambient here is about 95F and temp can raise to about 105F or more in the car!
by the way, seems like some of us here suffer starvation due to high temperatures? meaning 95F ambient will make the starvation surface more easily? as we know on track temp can be very high, will hot fuel make it worse and starvation sets in earlier?
my ambient here is about 95F and temp can raise to about 105F or more in the car!
Last edited by Brettus; 07-15-2014 at 04:03 PM.
07-15-2014, 10:40 PM
#772
rev it up
I had major issues when I was using Aeromotive pump. This only happened on long trips and high ambient temps.
The problem is that the pump is supplying a lot more fuel that what is required. The pump is also heating up the fuel so eventually you end up with a situation where there is cavitation as the fuel is boiling and the car stalls.
Switching to a stock pump provided immediate relief.
The problem is that the pump is supplying a lot more fuel that what is required. The pump is also heating up the fuel so eventually you end up with a situation where there is cavitation as the fuel is boiling and the car stalls.
Switching to a stock pump provided immediate relief.
07-18-2014, 06:50 PM
#775
Anyway , I just cut mine to bits . Turns out the statement is completely WRONG !
Fuel from the pump enters a chamber at the top of the bowl which discharges fuel to the outside of the filter . Once it passes through the filter it enters another chamber (on the same anulus but blocked off from the entrance chamber) . From there fuel exits from either the discharge or the pressure regulator .
Though much has been discussed on this forum with regards to the causes of these failures - filter clogging, misalignment of the assembly in the tank, crimped or disconnected siphon hoses, clogging from the use of pre-mix, etc. - all can actually be attributed to partial failure of the pump motor itself.
In every pump I have tested - some that were removed because of these failures, some as regular maintenance and some that were still in service - the pump motor could not keep up with demand under all circumstances.
In many, the pump never produced enough pressure to open the regulator at all. This means that no fuel was servicing the siphon, so no fuel was being moved from the right-side tank to the left-side.
Not a single pump had enough "blockage" of either filter element to restrict flow were the pump up to task. In fact, the sealed main filter cannot restrict flow significantly even if it were somehow completely clogged! The assembly is constructed in such a manner that fuel will flow around the element as it becomes a restriction (something that NONE of the pumps tested had done - even units that were replaced for that very reason by the owner of the vehicle)
In every pump I have tested - some that were removed because of these failures, some as regular maintenance and some that were still in service - the pump motor could not keep up with demand under all circumstances.
In many, the pump never produced enough pressure to open the regulator at all. This means that no fuel was servicing the siphon, so no fuel was being moved from the right-side tank to the left-side.
Not a single pump had enough "blockage" of either filter element to restrict flow were the pump up to task. In fact, the sealed main filter cannot restrict flow significantly even if it were somehow completely clogged! The assembly is constructed in such a manner that fuel will flow around the element as it becomes a restriction (something that NONE of the pumps tested had done - even units that were replaced for that very reason by the owner of the vehicle)
Last edited by Brettus; 07-18-2014 at 07:34 PM.