Engine teardown - 300+ hp with highish miles
03-11-2013, 05:26 PM
#51
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Too late now my friend 
If I don't end up swapping in a REW I will be purchasing as many new (freakin' expensive) hard parts as possible. Finding pristine used stuff is getting very hard.
If I don't end up swapping in a REW I will be purchasing as many new (freakin' expensive) hard parts as possible. Finding pristine used stuff is getting very hard.
03-11-2013, 05:30 PM
#52
I was lucky to find an engine that had less than 1000 miles on it for this latest rebuild
Have you had enough experience with the oil pressure mod to say that it helps with no drawbacks ? IE issues with the pump or overheating the oil etc .
Have you had enough experience with the oil pressure mod to say that it helps with no drawbacks ? IE issues with the pump or overheating the oil etc .
03-11-2013, 05:38 PM
#53
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I have it and we have installed it in on a couple of engines we have rebuilt locally. With my pineapple modification I get a maximum of 100psi or so, with the mazmart I would see about 120psi max running the same oil (0W-40). I'm not sure how feeding oil to my turbo affects that. To me it's a no brainer. And my last engine had zero oiling or bearing issues when it was torn apart by Pineapple after about 30k or so.
About the only downside is that if you are turbocharged you should not put full pressure to the turbo, most turbo should not get more than 30-35psi or so of oil pressure. I am working on a solution to read and regulate pressure to the turbo now.
About the only downside is that if you are turbocharged you should not put full pressure to the turbo, most turbo should not get more than 30-35psi or so of oil pressure. I am working on a solution to read and regulate pressure to the turbo now.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 03-11-2013 at 05:44 PM.
03-11-2013, 06:00 PM
#55
03-11-2013, 06:33 PM
#56
It's all a learning game, so long as the OMP is up and you are premixing housing wear should be minimal. If you catch it before you pop an apex seal its not to costly to experiment
.
Last edited by shadycrew31; 03-11-2013 at 06:37 PM.
03-11-2013, 06:56 PM
#57
basically every racing engine since the late 70's has run an oiling system like the FD or a renesis with an FD regulator. its pretty well proven.
03-11-2013, 07:05 PM
#58
Driving my unreliable rx8
Easy oil pressure mod
Get a 3/8"-16NC Bottom Pipe Tap
Tap the hole on the end of the regulator, Then use a 1" long 3/8"-16 Bolt with a backup nut.
Measure the depth of the cone on top of the regulator, Set the screw depth Just slightly under that depth.
I have 5-20 Oil on a cold start up I see pressures as high as 128 PSI, but once it warms up they are steady at 96PSI Max.
Get a 3/8"-16NC Bottom Pipe Tap
Tap the hole on the end of the regulator, Then use a 1" long 3/8"-16 Bolt with a backup nut.
Measure the depth of the cone on top of the regulator, Set the screw depth Just slightly under that depth.
I have 5-20 Oil on a cold start up I see pressures as high as 128 PSI, but once it warms up they are steady at 96PSI Max.
03-11-2013, 07:50 PM
#59
Easy oil pressure mod
Get a 3/8"-16NC Bottom Pipe Tap
Tap the hole on the end of the regulator, Then use a 1" long 3/8"-16 Bolt with a backup nut.
Measure the depth of the cone on top of the regulator, Set the screw depth Just slightly under that depth.
I have 5-20 Oil on a cold start up I see pressures as high as 128 PSI, but once it warms up they are steady at 96PSI Max.
Get a 3/8"-16NC Bottom Pipe Tap
Tap the hole on the end of the regulator, Then use a 1" long 3/8"-16 Bolt with a backup nut.
Measure the depth of the cone on top of the regulator, Set the screw depth Just slightly under that depth.
I have 5-20 Oil on a cold start up I see pressures as high as 128 PSI, but once it warms up they are steady at 96PSI Max.
03-11-2013, 07:56 PM
#61
there is much more to proper lubrication than replacing the pressure regulator. A lot. I am not an expert, but i do listen to others.
For example my engine ( with redline 5W 30W) my max psi is 93 -95psi. My MINIMUM cold or hot is 48-50 psi. You cant get that by just a regulator change.
"No overheating" uhhhhh--old buddy--sorry to port out you were having some localized overheating---big time. Look at the trailing and leading sparkplug sites. Now whether the gas leakage marks came before the cracks--I dont know.
Team IMHO is correct about the detonations. I think Harlan's work is showing that this engine is having more detonations than a lot think? The gas leakage marks on your rotors could also suggest that. Very possible. Makes me paranoid--lol.
After learning some additional things recently--i do know if I ever have to build another engine i will use ceramic seals.
Sure looks like you have clean gas where you live.
I think you may have more turbo back pressure than you think? Maybe? Pressure/expansion under the seals could cause the seal to catch on the exhaust port.
Also when the cracks appeared at the plug sites I will bet you have a patch of metal around that area that "sticks out" from the rest of the housing. Get a true straight edge and see...now that protrusion can cause the rotor to "wobble' more than it normally would and it may be enough at times to catch a corner seal edge on the exhaust port?.
For example my engine ( with redline 5W 30W) my max psi is 93 -95psi. My MINIMUM cold or hot is 48-50 psi. You cant get that by just a regulator change.
"No overheating" uhhhhh--old buddy--sorry to port out you were having some localized overheating---big time. Look at the trailing and leading sparkplug sites. Now whether the gas leakage marks came before the cracks--I dont know.
Team IMHO is correct about the detonations. I think Harlan's work is showing that this engine is having more detonations than a lot think? The gas leakage marks on your rotors could also suggest that. Very possible. Makes me paranoid--lol.
After learning some additional things recently--i do know if I ever have to build another engine i will use ceramic seals.
Sure looks like you have clean gas where you live.
I think you may have more turbo back pressure than you think? Maybe? Pressure/expansion under the seals could cause the seal to catch on the exhaust port.
Also when the cracks appeared at the plug sites I will bet you have a patch of metal around that area that "sticks out" from the rest of the housing. Get a true straight edge and see...now that protrusion can cause the rotor to "wobble' more than it normally would and it may be enough at times to catch a corner seal edge on the exhaust port?.
Last edited by olddragger; 03-11-2013 at 08:02 PM.
03-11-2013, 08:21 PM
#62
3-wheeler
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 2,734
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brettus,
I would suggest reconsidering your reduction of OMP injection next time around. The oil injection into the combustion chamber does more than just lubricate, it also provides some heat dissipation.
I would suggest reconsidering your reduction of OMP injection next time around. The oil injection into the combustion chamber does more than just lubricate, it also provides some heat dissipation.
03-11-2013, 09:02 PM
#63
RX8 Engines
Reading the pettit blurb about it in the above link , I'm more inclined to think they were right on the money all along ......Yes Team ..... I know .
Last edited by Brettus; 03-11-2013 at 10:05 PM.
03-11-2013, 09:59 PM
#65
Also of interest is the fact that the end of the apex is not wearing into the steel ,yet it has an even smaller surface area than the corner seal .
That plus the reduced wear on the non ported ports (that have less land area) makes me think there could be something to gain from reducing spring pressure on the corner seal ..........................
That plus the reduced wear on the non ported ports (that have less land area) makes me think there could be something to gain from reducing spring pressure on the corner seal ..........................
Last edited by Brettus; 03-11-2013 at 10:02 PM.
03-11-2013, 10:40 PM
#68
can,t - still on the ecu that has reached 100 flash limit . Plus I'm not convinced that is an issue here after re-reading that Pettit blurb and seeing that the exhaust port thing is the exact same issue I have..
Last edited by Brettus; 03-11-2013 at 10:56 PM.
03-11-2013, 10:54 PM
#69
Driving my unreliable rx8
It puts additional pressure on the spring and causes it to open at a higher pressure.
It is like shimming it with washers but this makes it adjustable. Just like a a welding Regulator.
It does not relive any pressure out of the end. The flow path is out of the side ports so It does not restrict flow. Just increases the spring tension.
It is like shimming it with washers but this makes it adjustable. Just like a a welding Regulator.
It does not relive any pressure out of the end. The flow path is out of the side ports so It does not restrict flow. Just increases the spring tension.
Last edited by logalinipoo; 03-11-2013 at 11:01 PM.
03-11-2013, 11:10 PM
#70
It puts additional pressure on the spring and causes it to open at a higher pressure.
It is like shimming it with washers but this makes it adjustable. Just like a a welding Regulator.
It does not relive any pressure out of the end. The flow path is out of the side ports so It does not restrict flow. Just increases the spring tension.
It is like shimming it with washers but this makes it adjustable. Just like a a welding Regulator.
It does not relive any pressure out of the end. The flow path is out of the side ports so It does not restrict flow. Just increases the spring tension.
03-11-2013, 11:34 PM
#71
Driving my unreliable rx8
When I get 500 Miles on my car I'll drop the oil pan and take a pic of it. IT is the same as crushing the top that Pineapple racing says. I didn't want to risk buggering up the threads on the bottom and It is completely reversable, just remove the bolt.
Remember to shim the relief in the front cover also.
Remember to shim the relief in the front cover also.
The following users liked this post:
rob babicki (06-17-2021)
03-12-2013, 02:22 AM
#72
so you turned minute level of lubricant to near non existent, the uneven wear can be from the oil squirters not injecting the same.....
03-12-2013, 02:43 AM
#73
"These conditions also can cause the minute film of protective lubricant, (from the OMP), to vaporize resulting in elevated friction and wear, which generates more heat and wear eventually causing hard starting and / or a weak idle on hot engines"
so you turned minute level of lubricant to near non existent, the uneven wear can be from the oil squirters not injecting the same.....
so you turned minute level of lubricant to near non existent, the uneven wear can be from the oil squirters not injecting the same.....
You missed my point . The issue is not unique to my car and is the most common failure mode of the renesis engines that Pettit rebuild .
We routinely receive Renesis engines that failed:
some of the causes are listed below by order of popularity:
# 1 Turbo charged w/high backpressure ratio.
#2 Poor maintenance
#3 Overheated
#4 Hi mileage/excessive seal wear; regular use of Protek-R will greatly reduce the likelihood of this occurring.
#5 Bearing failure, the oil recommendation 5/20 seems to be inadequate, most Renesis engines opened have excessive bearing wear, we therefore recommend a quality 10/40 or 20/50 oil the latter for racing and spirited driving
some of the causes are listed below by order of popularity:
# 1 Turbo charged w/high backpressure ratio.
#2 Poor maintenance
#3 Overheated
#4 Hi mileage/excessive seal wear; regular use of Protek-R will greatly reduce the likelihood of this occurring.
#5 Bearing failure, the oil recommendation 5/20 seems to be inadequate, most Renesis engines opened have excessive bearing wear, we therefore recommend a quality 10/40 or 20/50 oil the latter for racing and spirited driving
Pictured above are examples from failed engines which had turbo systems designed for 5-7 psi but ran
higher boost, this can raise back pressure ratios as high as 3:1 raising combustion temps to the danger
zone and compressing hot exhaust gasses between the engine and turbo concentrating heat on the edges
of the exhaust ports. This in turn transfers to the side seals, even the springs that hold them seated can be
affected. These conditions also can cause the minute film of protective lubricant to vaporize resulting in
elevated friction and wear, which generates more heat and wear eventually causing hard starting and / or
a weak idle on hot engines
higher boost, this can raise back pressure ratios as high as 3:1 raising combustion temps to the danger
zone and compressing hot exhaust gasses between the engine and turbo concentrating heat on the edges
of the exhaust ports. This in turn transfers to the side seals, even the springs that hold them seated can be
affected. These conditions also can cause the minute film of protective lubricant to vaporize resulting in
elevated friction and wear, which generates more heat and wear eventually causing hard starting and / or
a weak idle on hot engines
The following picture shows a stock Renesis exhaust port from a turbo charged application, in order to
better show the failure / wear the surface around the port was decarbonized and cleaned. It appears turbo
back pressure and heat load at the outer edge of this exhaust port caused enough surface deformation to
allow the corner seals to gouge away some surface material causing damage to the corner seals and side
seals, this resulted in compression loss and engine failure, not to mention ruining some expensive parts.
better show the failure / wear the surface around the port was decarbonized and cleaned. It appears turbo
back pressure and heat load at the outer edge of this exhaust port caused enough surface deformation to
allow the corner seals to gouge away some surface material causing damage to the corner seals and side
seals, this resulted in compression loss and engine failure, not to mention ruining some expensive parts.
Last edited by Brettus; 03-12-2013 at 03:27 AM.
03-12-2013, 10:43 AM
#74
with the JC cosmo engines they introduced the NF01-11-C24 seal spring, its much stiffer, and much more durable.
interestingly with the Rx8 they have a 3rd spring, N3H1-11-C24B, which is like the FD spring, but apparently with less tension.
so perhaps Mazda already gave the Rx8 less corner seal spring, and when you up the power more, it wants even less?
03-12-2013, 12:05 PM
#75
yeah, I have read the article several times, I get what your saying.
I guess I am saying your motor could have lasted even longer?
but you are correct you did have the longest going turbo Renisis, and that desires high honors!
you set a high bar
are you running esmiril seals in your current block?
I guess I am saying your motor could have lasted even longer?
but you are correct you did have the longest going turbo Renisis, and that desires high honors!
you set a high bar
are you running esmiril seals in your current block?