E85 conversion & Mazsport Fuel Pump questions
06-10-2009, 09:33 PM
#1
Tailhappy
Thread Starter
E85 conversion & Mazsport Fuel Pump questions
I've been considering doing an E85 conversion. Please don't make this into a debate on whether or not E85 is good or bad, I've done my research, I feel comfortable with it, IF my fuel pump and injectors can handle it. I'm doing this for the power benefits of E85, nothing else, since this car is driven 2,000 miles a year. This is just an attempt to do some more research on a discontinued product, looking for information I couldn't find through the search function.
I need some information about my fuel pump. I bought a turbo'd '04 RX-88 from another board member about a year and a half ago (my second RX-8, which has since become both my baby and my nightmare all at the same time - but I wouldn't trade it for anything). In it, the previous owner has installed a Mazsport Fuel Pump and "Mazsport upgraded fuel injectors (650cc's)". I have the Interceptor-X ignition system installed, tuning using Microtech. Microtech gives me data on injector capacity on Injector Milleseconds (INJ mS). Does anybody have any information on how many INJ mS the fuel pump / injector combo could handle? I know I need to add about 30% fuel to my current tune in order to go to E85, and tweak from there.
Again, please no debate on E85, there's already plenty of those here. I'm just looking for information on my setup.
I need some information about my fuel pump. I bought a turbo'd '04 RX-88 from another board member about a year and a half ago (my second RX-8, which has since become both my baby and my nightmare all at the same time - but I wouldn't trade it for anything). In it, the previous owner has installed a Mazsport Fuel Pump and "Mazsport upgraded fuel injectors (650cc's)". I have the Interceptor-X ignition system installed, tuning using Microtech. Microtech gives me data on injector capacity on Injector Milleseconds (INJ mS). Does anybody have any information on how many INJ mS the fuel pump / injector combo could handle? I know I need to add about 30% fuel to my current tune in order to go to E85, and tweak from there.
Again, please no debate on E85, there's already plenty of those here. I'm just looking for information on my setup.
06-10-2009, 11:20 PM
#2
Int-X ignition system? I'm sure you mean MazSport Ignition, and Int-X (Microtech) EMS, correct?
You need to upgrade ALL injectors, not just the P2 injectors. And the P2's will need to be larger as well to step your total fuel flow. And obviously you'll need a retune.
I wish I could go E85, just not enough infrastructure around to support it yet
You need to upgrade ALL injectors, not just the P2 injectors. And the P2's will need to be larger as well to step your total fuel flow. And obviously you'll need a retune.
I wish I could go E85, just not enough infrastructure around to support it yet
06-11-2009, 01:09 PM
#5
Hard to tell with the Esmeril Racing site because the link is not working. But it does say "click here to purchase". And it does say what is in the kit which could provide some info that may help the OP.
It would be great if ChrisRX8PR added his insight since he has completed the conversion and is selling or soon will be selling a kit.
It would be great if ChrisRX8PR added his insight since he has completed the conversion and is selling or soon will be selling a kit.
06-25-2009, 11:21 PM
#6
Diego
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I can help a little since i was about to do it to mine but i had a change of heart..
Since your NA it shouldn't be too hard since you only need 30% more fuel than stock. So try doing some math to figure out what size injectors you need. Remember RED are 290 so 290 x 1.3= 377. So you could use the secondary and P2s in place since they are 380.. Now you need new for the 380s, those would have to be 494 or round to 500. Remember that injectors are not exact, so best bet is to have the old stock ones be cleaned and flow tested.
So injector side your clear.
Fuell pump, i believe stock should be fine if you have the newer upgraded, but you could always just drop in a bosch 044 for a cheap 120. No need for upgraded fuel lines or rails, but im sure it be best if you did though. Just so you can get a nice return line since your adding 30% more fuel.
And if your using the Int X then you are set, since you can change settings. I believe since your NA you don't have to change anything to your timing UNLESS you do plan to run regular 91. I suggest having 1 map for e85 fuel, and 1 for whatever gas you have.
Hope it helps
Since your NA it shouldn't be too hard since you only need 30% more fuel than stock. So try doing some math to figure out what size injectors you need. Remember RED are 290 so 290 x 1.3= 377. So you could use the secondary and P2s in place since they are 380.. Now you need new for the 380s, those would have to be 494 or round to 500. Remember that injectors are not exact, so best bet is to have the old stock ones be cleaned and flow tested.
So injector side your clear.
Fuell pump, i believe stock should be fine if you have the newer upgraded, but you could always just drop in a bosch 044 for a cheap 120. No need for upgraded fuel lines or rails, but im sure it be best if you did though. Just so you can get a nice return line since your adding 30% more fuel.
And if your using the Int X then you are set, since you can change settings. I believe since your NA you don't have to change anything to your timing UNLESS you do plan to run regular 91. I suggest having 1 map for e85 fuel, and 1 for whatever gas you have.
Hope it helps
06-25-2009, 11:30 PM
#7
Tailhappy
Thread Starter
I can help a little since i was about to do it to mine but i had a change of heart..
Since your NA it shouldn't be too hard since you only need 30% more fuel than stock. So try doing some math to figure out what size injectors you need. Remember RED are 290 so 290 x 1.3= 377. So you could use the secondary and P2s in place since they are 380.. Now you need new for the 380s, those would have to be 494 or round to 500. Remember that injectors are not exact, so best bet is to have the old stock ones be cleaned and flow tested.
So injector side your clear.
Fuell pump, i believe stock should be fine if you have the newer upgraded, but you could always just drop in a bosch 044 for a cheap 120. No need for upgraded fuel lines or rails, but im sure it be best if you did though. Just so you can get a nice return line since your adding 30% more fuel.
And if your using the Int X then you are set, since you can change settings. I believe since your NA you don't have to change anything to your timing UNLESS you do plan to run regular 91. I suggest having 1 map for e85 fuel, and 1 for whatever gas you have.
Hope it helps
Since your NA it shouldn't be too hard since you only need 30% more fuel than stock. So try doing some math to figure out what size injectors you need. Remember RED are 290 so 290 x 1.3= 377. So you could use the secondary and P2s in place since they are 380.. Now you need new for the 380s, those would have to be 494 or round to 500. Remember that injectors are not exact, so best bet is to have the old stock ones be cleaned and flow tested.
So injector side your clear.
Fuell pump, i believe stock should be fine if you have the newer upgraded, but you could always just drop in a bosch 044 for a cheap 120. No need for upgraded fuel lines or rails, but im sure it be best if you did though. Just so you can get a nice return line since your adding 30% more fuel.
And if your using the Int X then you are set, since you can change settings. I believe since your NA you don't have to change anything to your timing UNLESS you do plan to run regular 91. I suggest having 1 map for e85 fuel, and 1 for whatever gas you have.
Hope it helps
06-25-2009, 11:43 PM
#8
Diego
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ooohh lol now i see it, yeah well okay...
Have you maxed out your injectors yet? at 85% duty that is. Pretty much if you have and your good on your tune then just do the same thing. get 30% larger injectors and your fuel system if you want. Then just get it tuned.
good links:
http://injector-rehab.com/kbse/e85injectorsize.htm
http://kgparts.com/index.php?page=injectorflowrates
Have you maxed out your injectors yet? at 85% duty that is. Pretty much if you have and your good on your tune then just do the same thing. get 30% larger injectors and your fuel system if you want. Then just get it tuned.
good links:
http://injector-rehab.com/kbse/e85injectorsize.htm
http://kgparts.com/index.php?page=injectorflowrates
06-26-2009, 12:47 AM
#15
Tailhappy
Thread Starter
Because... that's what it was tuned to when I got it. Worst reason in the world... never researched what the engine & turbo can handle, but I don't want to push it too close to the limit... I'd rather the engine last a long time.
06-26-2009, 06:04 AM
#16
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I would recommend not doing this. Not because of the increased flow rates (that's easy and seems like you have that figured out), but standard fuel system components will not stand up to E85 fuel.
Regular gasoline pumps will work in E85 but not for long. The big problem is electrical corrosion. Ethanol is highly conductive. If the electrical connector and the pump's electrical guts aren't properly sealed the current will migrate through the fuel between the +'ve &-'ve terminals and corrode them.
Some metal platings used on the module components may not hold up. Springs are probably already SUS so no worries there. But components like the rods and pressure regulator are probably not plated to hold up in E85.
Standard O-rings used in the fuel pump module will not hold up either. O-rings will swell in fuel. This will happen. Can't stop it. E-85 will cause standard or-rings to swell more than if they were in regular gasoline. The o-rings may eventually swell to the point where they drop out of the o-ring pocket. If this happens you're going to loose some functionality of the fuel pump. Worse case you're loosing all fuel pressure going to the engine.
This is just a start. There mores but it's enough for you to think about.
If you end up going forward I wish you luck but keep in mind that there's more to take into consideration than just flow rates.
Regular gasoline pumps will work in E85 but not for long. The big problem is electrical corrosion. Ethanol is highly conductive. If the electrical connector and the pump's electrical guts aren't properly sealed the current will migrate through the fuel between the +'ve &-'ve terminals and corrode them.
Some metal platings used on the module components may not hold up. Springs are probably already SUS so no worries there. But components like the rods and pressure regulator are probably not plated to hold up in E85.
Standard O-rings used in the fuel pump module will not hold up either. O-rings will swell in fuel. This will happen. Can't stop it. E-85 will cause standard or-rings to swell more than if they were in regular gasoline. The o-rings may eventually swell to the point where they drop out of the o-ring pocket. If this happens you're going to loose some functionality of the fuel pump. Worse case you're loosing all fuel pressure going to the engine.
This is just a start. There mores but it's enough for you to think about.
If you end up going forward I wish you luck but keep in mind that there's more to take into consideration than just flow rates.
06-26-2009, 08:44 AM
#17
I would recommend not doing this. Not because of the increased flow rates (that's easy and seems like you have that figured out), but standard fuel system components will not stand up to E85 fuel.
Regular gasoline pumps will work in E85 but not for long. The big problem is electrical corrosion. Ethanol is highly conductive. If the electrical connector and the pump's electrical guts aren't properly sealed the current will migrate through the fuel between the +'ve &-'ve terminals and corrode them.
Some metal platings used on the module components may not hold up. Springs are probably already SUS so no worries there. But components like the rods and pressure regulator are probably not plated to hold up in E85.
Standard O-rings used in the fuel pump module will not hold up either. O-rings will swell in fuel. This will happen. Can't stop it. E-85 will cause standard or-rings to swell more than if they were in regular gasoline. The o-rings may eventually swell to the point where they drop out of the o-ring pocket. If this happens you're going to loose some functionality of the fuel pump. Worse case you're loosing all fuel pressure going to the engine.
This is just a start. There mores but it's enough for you to think about.
If you end up going forward I wish you luck but keep in mind that there's more to take into consideration than just flow rates.
Regular gasoline pumps will work in E85 but not for long. The big problem is electrical corrosion. Ethanol is highly conductive. If the electrical connector and the pump's electrical guts aren't properly sealed the current will migrate through the fuel between the +'ve &-'ve terminals and corrode them.
Some metal platings used on the module components may not hold up. Springs are probably already SUS so no worries there. But components like the rods and pressure regulator are probably not plated to hold up in E85.
Standard O-rings used in the fuel pump module will not hold up either. O-rings will swell in fuel. This will happen. Can't stop it. E-85 will cause standard or-rings to swell more than if they were in regular gasoline. The o-rings may eventually swell to the point where they drop out of the o-ring pocket. If this happens you're going to loose some functionality of the fuel pump. Worse case you're loosing all fuel pressure going to the engine.
This is just a start. There mores but it's enough for you to think about.
If you end up going forward I wish you luck but keep in mind that there's more to take into consideration than just flow rates.
Fuel system components since the late 80's early 90's have been designed to withstand Ethanol exposure since Ethanol was introduced into gasoline. All O-rings, lines and hoses in modern fuel systems are up to the task of handling Pump E85.....maybe not pure Ethanol but E85 is not pure, it contains 15%gas and it has lubricants and protectants added to it just like any normal fuel. I know this because I have been testing ethanol for quite some time and I have been reading about ethanol for quite some time also.
Ethanol is not nearly as corrosive as Methanol which would cause long term use issues. Most fuel in the US has up to 10-15% Ethanol as a component anyways...and most theories about its corrosion and how it can damage components are based on speculation and assumptions.
Watch this video of an actual test with data performed by actual scientists...(Albeit, funded by an Ethanol Coalition
)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY4YiEBnJ_8
I have a lot more documentation of this if needed.
Care to compare notes?
Thanks.
Best regards,
Chris
Last edited by ChrisRX8PR; 06-26-2009 at 10:23 AM.
06-26-2009, 11:06 AM
#18
Diego
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I would recommend not doing this. Not because of the increased flow rates (that's easy and seems like you have that figured out), but standard fuel system components will not stand up to E85 fuel.
Regular gasoline pumps will work in E85 but not for long. The big problem is electrical corrosion. Ethanol is highly conductive. If the electrical connector and the pump's electrical guts aren't properly sealed the current will migrate through the fuel between the +'ve &-'ve terminals and corrode them.
Some metal platings used on the module components may not hold up. Springs are probably already SUS so no worries there. But components like the rods and pressure regulator are probably not plated to hold up in E85.
Standard O-rings used in the fuel pump module will not hold up either. O-rings will swell in fuel. This will happen. Can't stop it. E-85 will cause standard or-rings to swell more than if they were in regular gasoline. The o-rings may eventually swell to the point where they drop out of the o-ring pocket. If this happens you're going to loose some functionality of the fuel pump. Worse case you're loosing all fuel pressure going to the engine.
This is just a start. There mores but it's enough for you to think about.
If you end up going forward I wish you luck but keep in mind that there's more to take into consideration than just flow rates.
Regular gasoline pumps will work in E85 but not for long. The big problem is electrical corrosion. Ethanol is highly conductive. If the electrical connector and the pump's electrical guts aren't properly sealed the current will migrate through the fuel between the +'ve &-'ve terminals and corrode them.
Some metal platings used on the module components may not hold up. Springs are probably already SUS so no worries there. But components like the rods and pressure regulator are probably not plated to hold up in E85.
Standard O-rings used in the fuel pump module will not hold up either. O-rings will swell in fuel. This will happen. Can't stop it. E-85 will cause standard or-rings to swell more than if they were in regular gasoline. The o-rings may eventually swell to the point where they drop out of the o-ring pocket. If this happens you're going to loose some functionality of the fuel pump. Worse case you're loosing all fuel pressure going to the engine.
This is just a start. There mores but it's enough for you to think about.
If you end up going forward I wish you luck but keep in mind that there's more to take into consideration than just flow rates.
But the recommendation is to do a full fuel system upgrade if you do plan, either your own or esmerils.
06-27-2009, 10:32 AM
#19
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For E10 - E15 no special design considerations are taken to upgrade the fuel system. 10 to 15% Ethanol is nothing. E85 is a different story. OEMs spend all kinds of money to upgrade fuel systems when they make a vehicle E85 compatible. Depending on the supplier of the fuel system, maybe they already include upgraded components for E85 use and they just commonize to their regular gas design. Some suppliers do this. This may be the case for some of your +'ve experiences.
I just thought I'd point out a few things that are usually reviewed in the fuel system when designing / developing for E85. Take them as you will.
I just thought I'd point out a few things that are usually reviewed in the fuel system when designing / developing for E85. Take them as you will.
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