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So................ the RX8 I bought recently came with a spare (low compression ) engine .I was initially going to turbo the car but having that engine got me thinking about what can be done NA . I've been down this track about 15 years ago and lack of results prompted me to turbo my other 8. However .... I've learned a lot since then so...I have high hopes of finding some extra NA power ........ here is the plan:
1/ Dyno existing engine in the car. I know this is a fairly healthy engine with good compression and from a few roll races I know it's comparable in straight line acceleration with other good rx8s.
Existing Mods : Mazdaspeed flywheel,Brettspeed cold air intake, gutted cat,RMajic catback exhaust.
2/Fit log style header (copy of Teamrx8's header design) . Hope to get this done same day as dyno above. This will see if the header alone is worth any power.
3/ Rebuild old engine and fit . I'm going to keep the engine details secret for now but suffice it to say what I'm planning has never been tried before (to my knowledge) . I've already done the porting and the engine should get assembled(hopefully) before xmas.
^^ Ditto. Good looking car. Interested to see what you come up w/ and if any principles c/b applied to FI.
Cheers Curt.
That's how I came up with the concept (trying to think of ways to overcome FI limitations). However, the way I've ported this engine wont suit FI and I don't think I have the motivation to do an FI version.
Cheers Curt.
That's how I came up with the concept (trying to think of ways to overcome FI limitations). However, the way I've ported this engine wont suit FI and I don't think I have the motivation to do an FI version.
I assume the issue is how to make the "air pump" pump more air when it is NA, eh? I assume you cannot add larger FI for larger gas volume and have the engine pull in more air as NA. Damn physics.
Sorry, an NA build is never going to be a Major HP Upgrade thread, the exception might be a 26B NA swap.
20b should be able to get you to between 450whp and 500whp as proven by defined autowork's NA FD (before he went to a 26b). I would consider that "big power" NA wise.
I dont see an NA Renesis breaking 300whp without a very exotic / 20b cost level setup.
I dont see an NA Renesis breaking 300whp without a very exotic / 20b cost level setup.
Team is just being pedantic. This forum actually includes "porting" in the description so that's why I posted here. I feel anything over a 10% gain would justify the "major" title given the history of this engine.
No, I’m being truthful. NA porting is in here because back in the day everybody thought there was some kind of hidden well of Renesis secret sauce in there somewhere. In reality, Mazda squeezed most of it dry. Which they didn’t give us much to work with as far as porting potential goes. You’ll be lucky to come up with about 10 bhp ported over what the best hand built factory stock engine can do; about 280 bhp imo.
the best mod imo doesn’t change the potential of that, but adds long term durability; revising the apex seals to the full depth 13B type and using Iannetti ceramic seals. Pretty expensive mod though, especially since both new rotors and housings should be paired with them and then the rotor rips need to be modified using an expensive technique for the deeper seals. The OE seals will start off the same, but performance will fade away faster over time.
The other issue is that the potential is so dependent on intake resonance that you can go backwards real quick if mods interfere with or impact it negatively. I don’t what the plan is here, but imo the best you’re ever likely to see is around maybe 240 rwhp, and that’s going to require an ultra lightweight racing clutch/flywheel rather than the usual street type parts with a fresh blueprinted trans and lightweight wheels/tires. 230ish is more likely though.
We will see I guess, but if I could get say, double, the 10whp you say is tops for porting ..... it's a major win. The engine isn't going to cost me too much to try this concept as I didn't have to buy any major components. Just seals , a little machining and labor to assemble.
The manifold is being built this week and dynoing it might happen as soon as next week ...fingers xd . No expecting too much but maybe there's 5-10 in it ?
Also : just copied this comment you made to me in another thread :
That’s an entirely different situation. You think you know something pro builders who’ve been doing rotary engines since the beginning and outfitted with their own engine dynos and machine shops haven’t been able to find yet.
the path of the other thread is not so well travelled.
That’s an entirely different situation. You think you know something pro builders who’ve been doing rotary engines since the beginning and outfitted with their own engine dynos and machine shops haven’t been able to find yet.
the path of the other thread is not so well travelled.
.
It's pretty well traveled ...just not by you.
And no , I don't think I know half of what those guys do. But I'm still willing to give it a shot ......1/because I haven't seen it done before............ and 2/ I think it will work.
I love stuff like this. Thank you. I have no plans to go FI, so its nice to see what if anything can be done NA. I know there have been some build threads on this before, and consensus is that there is little to be had, but new ideas are new ideas, and it is nice to see them implemented, documented, etc.
Like header theory...
Which was an excellent contribution to this forum.
The mod I've done wont be that hard to implement for others............. if it works. It took me several hours with a die grinder plus there is the machining which I couldn't do without a mill.
I don't plan to do anything else to get power BTW ...none of that fancy stuff that Team mentioned.
Except for discussing the conventional porting limitations, nothing I mentioned in the previous post is about making power. Some of the “fancy stuff”; as Brett calls it, is for long term durability, especially for performance/track use. The other parts simply allow power that already exists to be applied at the tire contact patch rather than consumed prior.
A factory clutch/flywheel assy. Is about 32-33 lbs. while a 5.5” 2-disc racing clutch/aluminum flywheel can be 7-8 lbs. the big difference though is MOI; which has a much bigger impact on engine output that the weight difference. The 32lbs of OE weight is centered around a 10” radius while the 8 lbs racing setup is on a 5” radius (general guesstimates in my head, not calculated; moi = mass x radius^2, 3200 vs 200 = 16x dMOI vs 4x dMass). That’s why the usual ltw street flywheel with OE size clutch doesn’t amount to much. You save a couple of lbs, but radius center and MOI are not impacted so much. You need to drop down to a 7.25” clutch setup to start seeing any noticeable gains.
The wheel/tire package also has a similar impact; not just the power required to accelerate the rear wheels, but it also has to overcome MOI of the front wheels, drivetrain, brake rotors, etc. along all the non-rotating mass weight as well. Some of those only show up in real world acceleration and not on a dyno, but you can potentially have the highest output NA Renesis engine in the world, but not be anywhere near the ‘fastest’ RX8.
so anyway, when I first did the header manifold, ultra-flow cat converter, and race muffler back in 2006 on an otherwise factory stock RX8 I ran it on a dynojet and made around 206 rwhp. No tuning, no intake, OEM everything else.
so anyway, when I first did the header manifold, ultra-flow cat converter, and race muffler back in 2006 on an otherwise factory stock RX8 I ran it on a dynojet and made around 206 rwhp. No tuning, no intake, OEM everything else.
.
What changes were made between the 206 Dynojet dyno and the 220 Mustang dyno ?
Intake, tuning mostly, exhaust muffler was different, fresh #10 race plugs. I left the car at Cobb Tuning for them to develop the AccessTuner device in Sept. 2007 and they had it up around 215 or so when I picked up in Feb. 2008. I had it tuned again by them a while later when the WOT AFRs we’re reading high. Not sure if that was from intake mods or what happened, but that’s when it pulled that dyno. It made a few HP more actually, but at around 13.8 AFR or so. We ended up around 13.1 or so on the final pull. In fact my pcm has no factory base map. The base map on it is the Cobb tune from then. There was no RX8 AT device yet and they were doing it all on laptop software. So when I finally got the tuning device it has that for the original tune. I tried to get a AccessRacer copy of the tune from them, but there was something different from what the software they were developing it with and the public version that prevented doing so. So I couldn’t even use it to build future tunes from and had to start from scratch.
I had no base tune on the car, but if I had to guess the manifold with high flow cat/exhaust is probably around 8 - 10 hp. Maybe. I mainly did the manifold for weight. It was around 7 lbs and still emission legal. OE is about 15 lbs.
11-10-2019, 09:34 PM
