Aux port delete for FI discussion
02-06-2010, 03:34 PM
#77
The last variable is the intercooler.... if the intercooler is a better heat sink than the compressor / engine combo it may still make more sense to increase boost and block off the ports for these levels of "modest" power.
Though I don't think so.
Though I don't think so.
02-06-2010, 03:42 PM
#79
Kane - This is why I'm not confident my test is good enough to get the result we are after . You really need a sustained period of high boost to heat soak the intercooler sufficiently and give you a meaningfull answer .
Now that I did that calculation however I'm leaning more to it not being a good idea also ....
Now that I did that calculation however I'm leaning more to it not being a good idea also ....
Last edited by Brettus; 02-06-2010 at 03:46 PM.
02-06-2010, 04:00 PM
#81
Oh, are we supposed to assume what you have for an intercooler and it's inlet/outlet efficiency?
I have a great interest in FI, but I've even remotely claimed to be knowledgeable in it, let alone an expert. However, I can smell BS a mile away without actually having shoved it up my nose. How about pulling your hand out of your shorts and getting back on target. It wasn't a personal jab. If you want help you have to provide the accurate information otherwise this is just one more BS forum hogwash exercise that accomplishes nada.
I have a great interest in FI, but I've even remotely claimed to be knowledgeable in it, let alone an expert. However, I can smell BS a mile away without actually having shoved it up my nose. How about pulling your hand out of your shorts and getting back on target. It wasn't a personal jab. If you want help you have to provide the accurate information otherwise this is just one more BS forum hogwash exercise that accomplishes nada.
02-06-2010, 04:29 PM
#82
That said , I know you are no dummy and look forward to your contributions once you go ahead and take the plunge yourself .........
02-06-2010, 04:39 PM
#84
/\ Well my laptop is no more and Dudelogger does not give me IAT info so i'm abit stuffed right now .
I also think the test needs to be longer - like a 5th gear pull on a dyno or at the track where you can sustain long periods of full throttle ....
and yes - no intercooler just straight compression .
I also think the test needs to be longer - like a 5th gear pull on a dyno or at the track where you can sustain long periods of full throttle ....
and yes - no intercooler just straight compression .
02-08-2010, 03:41 AM
#88
FWIW, I agree with what I agree with, plenty of examples of me going against the so-called expert conventions here and elsewhere too, might not be so easy to see where those fixated, rose colored glasses of personal disdain you seem to have for me
just between us, there are no experts on this particular forum, the people who really know their sh-t and make a living proving it don't waste their time here ...
02-08-2010, 08:40 PM
#89
experts like arrghrx7????
FWIW, I agree with what I agree with, plenty of examples of me going against the so-called expert conventions here and elsewhere too, might not be so easy to see where those fixated, rose colored glasses of personal disdain you seem to have for me
just between us, there are no experts on this particular forum, the people who really know their sh-t and make a living proving it don't waste their time here ...
FWIW, I agree with what I agree with, plenty of examples of me going against the so-called expert conventions here and elsewhere too, might not be so easy to see where those fixated, rose colored glasses of personal disdain you seem to have for me
just between us, there are no experts on this particular forum, the people who really know their sh-t and make a living proving it don't waste their time here ...
And these experts you speak of - tells us about them . There are loads of people on here who would love to consult these people to tune/fit their FI solution .
Perhaps you should do some reading up on some of the install threads to see what utter **** ups well known "respected" shops make of fitting FI to an 8 .
Last edited by Brettus; 02-08-2010 at 08:54 PM.
02-08-2010, 10:43 PM
#90
I challenge MM plenty, but in that particular case it was an honest agreement.
The experts I'm referring to operate at the highest level of sponsored Motorsport competition, some independently, some at factory programs. Is anyone here taking a 6 cyl Porsche engine, converting it to an 8 cyl, and winning the overall at the Daytona 24 Hr event? Admittedly David Haskell made a brief appearance here long ago, very brief. Otherwise true Motorsport engineers often have more pressing priorities than arguing nitpicking theories of inconsequential reality benefit or fielding non-stop ZOMG fanboi worshipping. There's no replacement for extensive experience at the top level, moreso now due to the cost of ultimate technology.
Otherwise I apparently misjudged you and sincerely apologize for my personal fail in that regard.
.
The experts I'm referring to operate at the highest level of sponsored Motorsport competition, some independently, some at factory programs. Is anyone here taking a 6 cyl Porsche engine, converting it to an 8 cyl, and winning the overall at the Daytona 24 Hr event? Admittedly David Haskell made a brief appearance here long ago, very brief. Otherwise true Motorsport engineers often have more pressing priorities than arguing nitpicking theories of inconsequential reality benefit or fielding non-stop ZOMG fanboi worshipping. There's no replacement for extensive experience at the top level, moreso now due to the cost of ultimate technology.
Otherwise I apparently misjudged you and sincerely apologize for my personal fail in that regard.
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 02-09-2010 at 05:11 AM.
02-08-2010, 10:58 PM
#91
In the meantime we have what we have and I would venture to suggest that on this site you are going to get better info (so long as you know what to look for ) than from most so called "tuning shops" out there .
02-08-2010, 11:19 PM
#92
An interesting (I think) point to add at this juncture:
I've had a lot of contact with Rolex/Koni teams over the last year or so.
Running in that crowd, I came to realize first-hand how limited and small the Internet community is relative to the whole racing scene (for reasons I'll leave to another thread).
The thing that constantly amazed me is the immense amount of Voodoo the pro builders/tuners utilize. There is so much dogma and rote that it is stifling.
When I had conversations with some of the "top" guys, half of them didn't even know what a gram-per-second was, let alone how to calculate anything from it.
They all depended on "Billy-Bob does it this way with this part in this position with this bolt cranked two and 1/2 turns by hand and makes X HP, so we are gonna turn it two and 1/3 by hand and that should make a buncha more power!".
When it didn't, they started blaming the weather or the parts guy at NAPA that didn't pick the correct bolt out of the bin or whatever.
When I showed them the actual flow differences, they blamed that on the software that was measuring it!
I really think that is why some of the real top tuners work in complete secrecy - they don't want the other "top" guys breathing down their neck!
I've had a lot of contact with Rolex/Koni teams over the last year or so.
Running in that crowd, I came to realize first-hand how limited and small the Internet community is relative to the whole racing scene (for reasons I'll leave to another thread).
The thing that constantly amazed me is the immense amount of Voodoo the pro builders/tuners utilize. There is so much dogma and rote that it is stifling.
When I had conversations with some of the "top" guys, half of them didn't even know what a gram-per-second was, let alone how to calculate anything from it.
They all depended on "Billy-Bob does it this way with this part in this position with this bolt cranked two and 1/2 turns by hand and makes X HP, so we are gonna turn it two and 1/3 by hand and that should make a buncha more power!".
When it didn't, they started blaming the weather or the parts guy at NAPA that didn't pick the correct bolt out of the bin or whatever.
When I showed them the actual flow differences, they blamed that on the software that was measuring it!
I really think that is why some of the real top tuners work in complete secrecy - they don't want the other "top" guys breathing down their neck!
02-08-2010, 11:40 PM
#94
Those people are not the kind you can bowl up to and say "help me turbo my 8" .
In the meantime we have what we have and I would venture to suggest that on this site you are going to get better info (so long as you know what to look for ) than from most so called "tuning shops" out there .
In the meantime we have what we have and I would venture to suggest that on this site you are going to get better info (so long as you know what to look for ) than from most so called "tuning shops" out there .
what we have here .... is a failure ... to communicate. I don't like this anymore than you do ...
In other words, it's obvious that our use of the term "expert" is quite different.
02-09-2010, 10:38 AM
#96
True that and many of the "people that know" will not tell you a damn thing. That leaves the rest of us to struggle with what we do have and a lot of trial and errors.
You think the people that know were born that way?
Nope--they started out like many of us. Not knowing a damn thing. But with time and with persistance they started learning. They did the wrench time. It cost them and they are not about to give it away to just anyone that asks.
So we struggle on and we learn what we can.
The forum has helped people share experiences and some knowledge that without many would still not even know to change the oil very frequently.
I would rather be on a piece of cardboard with someone that is motivated, opened minded and persistant than with some of the so called experts.
My 2 cents
OD
You think the people that know were born that way?
Nope--they started out like many of us. Not knowing a damn thing. But with time and with persistance they started learning. They did the wrench time. It cost them and they are not about to give it away to just anyone that asks.
So we struggle on and we learn what we can.
The forum has helped people share experiences and some knowledge that without many would still not even know to change the oil very frequently.
I would rather be on a piece of cardboard with someone that is motivated, opened minded and persistant than with some of the so called experts.
My 2 cents
OD
02-09-2010, 10:47 AM
#97
I agree with you Denny and i would like to add that many of the so called "experts" are properly trained engineers or rely on the experience and math of one.
They are probably able to calculate and determine in a scientific way what we achieve we longer times with empirical "studies". There's nothing wrong in trying to learn imho, even sharing our experiences helps.
However this discussion was pretty interesting to read at the beginning, is it possible to just put it back on topic and continue? If somebody's not interested i am sure that he will be polite enough to just stop posting instead of just jumpin it calling BS without actually contributing.
On the other hand, if something looks and smells like bullshit it is an added bonus to have somebody capable to say it IS bullshit, possibly explaining why.
Can we resume?
Thanks!
They are probably able to calculate and determine in a scientific way what we achieve we longer times with empirical "studies". There's nothing wrong in trying to learn imho, even sharing our experiences helps.
However this discussion was pretty interesting to read at the beginning, is it possible to just put it back on topic and continue? If somebody's not interested i am sure that he will be polite enough to just stop posting instead of just jumpin it calling BS without actually contributing.
On the other hand, if something looks and smells like bullshit it is an added bonus to have somebody capable to say it IS bullshit, possibly explaining why.
Can we resume?
Thanks!
02-12-2010, 02:46 PM
#98
OK . Found the correct formula (i think) for calculating temp of compression :
(PR^0.28-1) x T absolute x 1/turbo efficiency x intercooler eficiency (say 50%)
So for my example we get
@10psi UIM and 14.5psi post turbo, 60% turbo efficiency and 20C ambient(=293Kelvin) :
(1.99^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.6 x 50/100 = 51.8C
So a rise in temp of 31.8C
@7.5psi UIM and 12psi post turbo , 55%turbo efficiency and 20C ambient:
(1.82^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.55 x 50/100 =48.6 C
Rise in temp of 28.6C
So for my setup I'm better off staying with ports open .
There would have to be a turbo efficiency increase of 12% to make NOT opening the ports worthwhile ...
(PR^0.28-1) x T absolute x 1/turbo efficiency x intercooler eficiency (say 50%)
So for my example we get
@10psi UIM and 14.5psi post turbo, 60% turbo efficiency and 20C ambient(=293Kelvin) :
(1.99^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.6 x 50/100 = 51.8C
So a rise in temp of 31.8C
@7.5psi UIM and 12psi post turbo , 55%turbo efficiency and 20C ambient:
(1.82^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.55 x 50/100 =48.6 C
Rise in temp of 28.6C
So for my setup I'm better off staying with ports open .
There would have to be a turbo efficiency increase of 12% to make NOT opening the ports worthwhile ...
Last edited by Brettus; 02-12-2010 at 03:31 PM.
02-12-2010, 02:49 PM
#99
OK . Found the correct formula (i think) for calculating temp of compression :
(PR^0.28-1) x T absolute x 1/turbo efficiency x intercooler eficiency (say 50%)
So for my example we get
@10psi , 60% turbo efficiency and 20C ambient(=293Kelvin) :
(1.68^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.6 x 50/100 = 38.2C
So a rise in temp of 18.2C
@7.5psi , 55%turbo efficiency and 20C ambient:
(1.51^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.55 x 50/100 = 32.6C
Rise in temp of 12.6C
So for my setup I'm better off staying with ports open .
There would have to be a turbo efficiency increase of almost 15% to make NOT opening the ports worthwhile ...
(PR^0.28-1) x T absolute x 1/turbo efficiency x intercooler eficiency (say 50%)
So for my example we get
@10psi , 60% turbo efficiency and 20C ambient(=293Kelvin) :
(1.68^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.6 x 50/100 = 38.2C
So a rise in temp of 18.2C
@7.5psi , 55%turbo efficiency and 20C ambient:
(1.51^0.28-1) x 293K x 1/0.55 x 50/100 = 32.6C
Rise in temp of 12.6C
So for my setup I'm better off staying with ports open .
There would have to be a turbo efficiency increase of almost 15% to make NOT opening the ports worthwhile ...
Of course tuning issues don't make it a perfect 1 for 1 thing.... but heat and flow-wise; opening them is a better way to go.
