lilliput going crazy in combination with oem dash
10-10-2010, 10:59 AM
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lilliput going crazy in combination with oem dash
Hi there,
i have been looking carefully at several threats to install a car PC.
i am pretty far in at the moment but i am encountering a difficult problem.
i have purchased a lilliput 629 and managed to put everything inside the OEM dash piece. in the testing mode (in my home) everything was fine. however as soon as i hooked it up in the car the screen had trouble finding the input mode.
after some trail and error i concluded that the little motor for the nav screen housing is causing the trouble.
as you might know the motor is connected to the PCB with 2 connectors. as soon as i connect the connector with the 3 wires the trouble starts. the screen starts switching between PC/VIDEO mode 2 times a second and does not stop doing this.
picture is included in the attatchment
any ideas how to solve this trouble?
Cheers
i have been looking carefully at several threats to install a car PC.
i am pretty far in at the moment but i am encountering a difficult problem.
i have purchased a lilliput 629 and managed to put everything inside the OEM dash piece. in the testing mode (in my home) everything was fine. however as soon as i hooked it up in the car the screen had trouble finding the input mode.
after some trail and error i concluded that the little motor for the nav screen housing is causing the trouble.
as you might know the motor is connected to the PCB with 2 connectors. as soon as i connect the connector with the 3 wires the trouble starts. the screen starts switching between PC/VIDEO mode 2 times a second and does not stop doing this.
picture is included in the attatchment
any ideas how to solve this trouble?
Cheers
10-11-2010, 07:11 AM
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- update
i tried to shield the pcb using a metal plate, one around the motor and one underneath the mazda PCB and it still has this issue
someone in my school suggests it might be a current leaking somewhere?
i tried to shield the pcb using a metal plate, one around the motor and one underneath the mazda PCB and it still has this issue
someone in my school suggests it might be a current leaking somewhere?
10-15-2010, 10:47 AM
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Bsellmeijer,
This is an important topic to me so please read and answer; maybe we can fix your issues and prevent any from happening to me!!
Q1 - Did you connect the black ground wire that ran from the outside (bottom) PCB housing to the inside PCB board, motor (or both)?
Last night I just finished installing my Lilliput EBY701 screen and PCB board into the OEM nav dash flip section (using the metal screen holding bracket) and placed a piece of foam insulation over the whole Lilliput component assembly: screen, metal bracket securing screen and PCB board/IR board (since its a completely separate component, I did not want anything from the nav hood electronics touching it). I then removed the rest of the internal metal housing on the inside nav hood PCB (the metal piece that the actual PCB was attached to and the metal cover that mounted over the OEM PCB and screen assembly), placed the nav hood inner PCB board on top of the foam and installed/hooked up the motor. Finally I rolled up some foam to press against the boards to keep them from moving/rattling around and put the top cover back on. I did not run the ground wire from the outside PCB housing to the inside because:
1. I believe it was only used to ground out the flip up portion metal housing pieces and original screen to remove any EMI. (could be wrong though???)
2. I had no place to connect it to because I had removed all the metal housing parts inside the flip up housing of the hood (except the piece that holds the new screen in place, but that’s attached the Lilliput screen and the whole component is isolated from the OEM nav hood components).
And (embarrassingly
)
3. I could not remember where it hooked up to!! I violated the number one rule when dismantling and modifying components: Take pictures of each step as you take it apart so there is no questions when putting it back together)
That took me to midnight last night, (and I did not want to wake up anyone by drilling out a hole for the Lilliput wires to run thru the bottom of the nav hood housing), so I have not yet reassemble the hood, connected power to the nav hood or powered up the Lilliput (this will be done as soon as I get out of work today 4pm EST). After reading your post I'm now concerned I may run into some similar problems (or different ones).
I’ve isolated the Lilliput completely and since it normally does not have an external ground, by isolating it inside the nav hood it should work exactly like it did when it was in its original plastic housing sitting on my desk. It did not need an external ground then so it should not need an external ground now. (I hope)
Alzorz created this thread detailing the installation of power to the OEM nav hood to retain the hoods button functioning and memory controller for the motor.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-interior-audio-electronics-24/oem-nav-hood-controls-w-o-custom-pcb-172054/
In final picture when he shows the finished unit, there is no black ground wire attached to the outside nav hood PCB housing. (So I’m assuming nothing is run to the inside) and he has not indicated any problems.
This question is directed at anyone who could respond with some comments, ideas or answers!!
Concerning grounding, anyone think maybe the motor or inner PCB should be grounded (and any other metal OEM components not associated with an aftermarket screen? Everywhere I read about this nav hood screen replacement, I don’t ever see anyone reconnecting that ground lead?
End random anyone question!
Now back to your issue Bsellmeijer,
If there was a current leak, it would indicate that some portions of the OEM nav hood current carrying components are touching you Lilliput components (I know I’m being redundant, so just bear with me). Obviously the motor uses current and you’re using the motor, so this would be my first guess (or the section of the PCB board that supplies it). You said that you narrowed it down to the 3 wire connector causing the issue (I think this is what controls the memory/button functions), as the 2 wire connector just powers the motor. In my limited knowledge of the workings of this hood with a non OEM screen, I can think of two ways this (or any) leak would cause the problem your experiencing (auto mode cycling).
Q2 - Do you have a green wire attached to the Lilliput board for auto switching to a camera, and if so, where did you route it?
If that wire, or the PCB components associated with it whether or not you actually have the wire is picking up a current leak, induced current, or some induced rogue voltage, that would cause the Lilliput to think it had a signal on the camera and switch over to Video. (Check out the mp3car website for the details on where this section is located on the Lilliput PCB) From what I’ve read, people who use this feature hook that green wire to the reverse lights or circuit so when backing up, the screen auto switches to the camera while in reverse. If the motor/hood was not aligned properly when being put back together, when you connect the 3 wire connector, it could be forcing the motor to move to a position it can’t get to (due to the hoods opened/closed misalignment) and that may cause it to cycle as it goes on/off trying to force the motor to move. If this is where the current leak is coming from (either the motor itself or the circuit portion of the PCB that controls it) and it is making its way onto the auto switch wire or that portion of the Lilliput circuit board, I could see how it would constantly cycle.
I’m not sure how you would get this cycle from a constant current (or whatever) leak? Assuming that is doesn’t cycle back and forth but just stays constant maybe this could be a reason (If the Lilliput auto switch feature works like this). When that feature is triggered, it switches to Video, and if there is no signal present it switches back to PC mode. If this is the case then I could see why you would cycle back and forth twice a second if you had a constant leak of current or voltage or whatever to that section of the board. You would be inducing a switch to camera signal and then when one isn’t there switching back to PC mode. Yet it seems that cycle would be a lot longer than twice a second, but I’d figure I would throw that out anyways. This may not be how that feature works though, I never looked into it, (don’t have a reverse camera….yet
), but that’s how I would have it work if I designed it.
Q3 - Where are the Lilliput power (pos and neg) and the OEM nav hood power, ground, acc and illumination (if you did this) connected to and how are they routed?
There could possible be some interference between the 2 devices if the cables are all routed together. This would depend on the type and gauge of wire you’re using to power these components, their proximity to each other and proximity to signal cables. And where are the grounds (negative on the Lilliput) wired to? I’m pretty sure this isn’t the case but if your ground (negative) wires are a distance from where the power is connected you could be causing a ground loop. This would most likely cause different problems than what you’re describing, (esp. since you think its somehow associated with the motor) but since you said it worked fine on the bench (where you most likely didn’t have a ground loop concern), it’s a possibility. Remember the motor draws power and could cause a ground loop.
Questions:
Q1 - Did you connect the black ground wire that ran from the outside (bottom) PCB housing to the inside PCB board, motor (or both)?
Q2 - Do you have a green wire attached to the Lilliput board for auto switching to a camera, and if so, where did you route it?
Q3 - Where are the Lilliput power (pos and neg) and the OEM nav hood power, ground, acc and illumination (if you did this) connected to and how are they routed?
Q4- Are you sure the nav hood gears are properly aligned?
Now some help if you would like:
I would first remove any metal used to shield anything, since it IS conductive and could cause shorting problems in the future if something got loose.
Then try isolating your Lilliput components completely from the nav hood components by using non-conductive foam or rubber.
Check the power ground routing paths and distances from each other.
Check that the nav hood is still aligned; something may have come misaligned when moving it from the bench to the car.
This last one just because its something that may cause me a problem tonight when I hook everything back up: If your Lilliput had an IR board with the power/menu/volume etc buttons on it and you have it in the nav hood so you can use the remote, make sure none of the buttons are being pressed. I know it’s probably the farthest thing from the answer and has no direct link to removing the 3 wire motor connector, but I have seen stranger issues cause problems and take forever to diagnose.
Let me know what you find and the answers to the questions I proposed. I will be finishing my install and bench testing tonight, so will be around all day and night to further discuss this issue.
This is an important topic to me so please read and answer; maybe we can fix your issues and prevent any from happening to me!!
Q1 - Did you connect the black ground wire that ran from the outside (bottom) PCB housing to the inside PCB board, motor (or both)?
Last night I just finished installing my Lilliput EBY701 screen and PCB board into the OEM nav dash flip section (using the metal screen holding bracket) and placed a piece of foam insulation over the whole Lilliput component assembly: screen, metal bracket securing screen and PCB board/IR board (since its a completely separate component, I did not want anything from the nav hood electronics touching it). I then removed the rest of the internal metal housing on the inside nav hood PCB (the metal piece that the actual PCB was attached to and the metal cover that mounted over the OEM PCB and screen assembly), placed the nav hood inner PCB board on top of the foam and installed/hooked up the motor. Finally I rolled up some foam to press against the boards to keep them from moving/rattling around and put the top cover back on. I did not run the ground wire from the outside PCB housing to the inside because:
1. I believe it was only used to ground out the flip up portion metal housing pieces and original screen to remove any EMI. (could be wrong though???)
2. I had no place to connect it to because I had removed all the metal housing parts inside the flip up housing of the hood (except the piece that holds the new screen in place, but that’s attached the Lilliput screen and the whole component is isolated from the OEM nav hood components).
And (embarrassingly
)3. I could not remember where it hooked up to!! I violated the number one rule when dismantling and modifying components: Take pictures of each step as you take it apart so there is no questions when putting it back together)
That took me to midnight last night, (and I did not want to wake up anyone by drilling out a hole for the Lilliput wires to run thru the bottom of the nav hood housing), so I have not yet reassemble the hood, connected power to the nav hood or powered up the Lilliput (this will be done as soon as I get out of work today 4pm EST). After reading your post I'm now concerned I may run into some similar problems (or different ones).
I’ve isolated the Lilliput completely and since it normally does not have an external ground, by isolating it inside the nav hood it should work exactly like it did when it was in its original plastic housing sitting on my desk. It did not need an external ground then so it should not need an external ground now. (I hope)
Alzorz created this thread detailing the installation of power to the OEM nav hood to retain the hoods button functioning and memory controller for the motor.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-interior-audio-electronics-24/oem-nav-hood-controls-w-o-custom-pcb-172054/
In final picture when he shows the finished unit, there is no black ground wire attached to the outside nav hood PCB housing. (So I’m assuming nothing is run to the inside) and he has not indicated any problems.
This question is directed at anyone who could respond with some comments, ideas or answers!!
Concerning grounding, anyone think maybe the motor or inner PCB should be grounded (and any other metal OEM components not associated with an aftermarket screen? Everywhere I read about this nav hood screen replacement, I don’t ever see anyone reconnecting that ground lead?
End random anyone question!
Now back to your issue Bsellmeijer,
If there was a current leak, it would indicate that some portions of the OEM nav hood current carrying components are touching you Lilliput components (I know I’m being redundant, so just bear with me). Obviously the motor uses current and you’re using the motor, so this would be my first guess (or the section of the PCB board that supplies it). You said that you narrowed it down to the 3 wire connector causing the issue (I think this is what controls the memory/button functions), as the 2 wire connector just powers the motor. In my limited knowledge of the workings of this hood with a non OEM screen, I can think of two ways this (or any) leak would cause the problem your experiencing (auto mode cycling).
Q2 - Do you have a green wire attached to the Lilliput board for auto switching to a camera, and if so, where did you route it?
If that wire, or the PCB components associated with it whether or not you actually have the wire is picking up a current leak, induced current, or some induced rogue voltage, that would cause the Lilliput to think it had a signal on the camera and switch over to Video. (Check out the mp3car website for the details on where this section is located on the Lilliput PCB) From what I’ve read, people who use this feature hook that green wire to the reverse lights or circuit so when backing up, the screen auto switches to the camera while in reverse. If the motor/hood was not aligned properly when being put back together, when you connect the 3 wire connector, it could be forcing the motor to move to a position it can’t get to (due to the hoods opened/closed misalignment) and that may cause it to cycle as it goes on/off trying to force the motor to move. If this is where the current leak is coming from (either the motor itself or the circuit portion of the PCB that controls it) and it is making its way onto the auto switch wire or that portion of the Lilliput circuit board, I could see how it would constantly cycle.
I’m not sure how you would get this cycle from a constant current (or whatever) leak? Assuming that is doesn’t cycle back and forth but just stays constant maybe this could be a reason (If the Lilliput auto switch feature works like this). When that feature is triggered, it switches to Video, and if there is no signal present it switches back to PC mode. If this is the case then I could see why you would cycle back and forth twice a second if you had a constant leak of current or voltage or whatever to that section of the board. You would be inducing a switch to camera signal and then when one isn’t there switching back to PC mode. Yet it seems that cycle would be a lot longer than twice a second, but I’d figure I would throw that out anyways. This may not be how that feature works though, I never looked into it, (don’t have a reverse camera….yet
), but that’s how I would have it work if I designed it.Q3 - Where are the Lilliput power (pos and neg) and the OEM nav hood power, ground, acc and illumination (if you did this) connected to and how are they routed?
There could possible be some interference between the 2 devices if the cables are all routed together. This would depend on the type and gauge of wire you’re using to power these components, their proximity to each other and proximity to signal cables. And where are the grounds (negative on the Lilliput) wired to? I’m pretty sure this isn’t the case but if your ground (negative) wires are a distance from where the power is connected you could be causing a ground loop. This would most likely cause different problems than what you’re describing, (esp. since you think its somehow associated with the motor) but since you said it worked fine on the bench (where you most likely didn’t have a ground loop concern), it’s a possibility. Remember the motor draws power and could cause a ground loop.
Questions:
Q1 - Did you connect the black ground wire that ran from the outside (bottom) PCB housing to the inside PCB board, motor (or both)?
Q2 - Do you have a green wire attached to the Lilliput board for auto switching to a camera, and if so, where did you route it?
Q3 - Where are the Lilliput power (pos and neg) and the OEM nav hood power, ground, acc and illumination (if you did this) connected to and how are they routed?
Q4- Are you sure the nav hood gears are properly aligned?
Now some help if you would like:
I would first remove any metal used to shield anything, since it IS conductive and could cause shorting problems in the future if something got loose.
Then try isolating your Lilliput components completely from the nav hood components by using non-conductive foam or rubber.
Check the power ground routing paths and distances from each other.
Check that the nav hood is still aligned; something may have come misaligned when moving it from the bench to the car.
This last one just because its something that may cause me a problem tonight when I hook everything back up: If your Lilliput had an IR board with the power/menu/volume etc buttons on it and you have it in the nav hood so you can use the remote, make sure none of the buttons are being pressed. I know it’s probably the farthest thing from the answer and has no direct link to removing the 3 wire motor connector, but I have seen stranger issues cause problems and take forever to diagnose.
Let me know what you find and the answers to the questions I proposed. I will be finishing my install and bench testing tonight, so will be around all day and night to further discuss this issue.
10-17-2010, 03:43 AM
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First of all, thank you very much for helping me solving this problem! i read it yesterday on my mobile and i will go work on it today! (the little troublemaker is right next to me now)
for your Q's
#1 what did i do with the ground.
i also did not reattach the ground wire, i however do have a picture how it was attached (outside the enclosure), it ran from the metal case (where the car wire plugs into) to the inside of the nav screen (through the side)
I however am slightly concerned about this issue. was this a big ground for everything inside of the nav unit? if so this might cause some unwanted leaks!
-picture attached
#2 The green reverse wire
I had that option on my screen yes, but i will not be using it. i had it tucked away inside. but seeing it could be one big green antenna asking for trouble i now decided to cut it off
#3 power sources
Currently i am using the original cables from my car to power the motor part of the nav screen. along side this i am running a (rather thin) cable towards the back of my car where it connects to the PSU of my PC. i did this so my screen will only power up when my PC is powered up. thus preventing a nice blue no input screen on startup.
4# aligned
after so much testing i basicly realign the screen everytime i test it. it is rather easy by popping out the last wheel, resetting the engine and then closing everything.
this would also be my advice.. to reassemble the nav hood in your car.
I will go test the screen now again since i removed the green antenna cable and post any progress
-thnx!
for your Q's
#1 what did i do with the ground.
i also did not reattach the ground wire, i however do have a picture how it was attached (outside the enclosure), it ran from the metal case (where the car wire plugs into) to the inside of the nav screen (through the side)
I however am slightly concerned about this issue. was this a big ground for everything inside of the nav unit? if so this might cause some unwanted leaks!
-picture attached
#2 The green reverse wire
I had that option on my screen yes, but i will not be using it. i had it tucked away inside. but seeing it could be one big green antenna asking for trouble i now decided to cut it off
#3 power sources
Currently i am using the original cables from my car to power the motor part of the nav screen. along side this i am running a (rather thin) cable towards the back of my car where it connects to the PSU of my PC. i did this so my screen will only power up when my PC is powered up. thus preventing a nice blue no input screen on startup.
4# aligned
after so much testing i basicly realign the screen everytime i test it. it is rather easy by popping out the last wheel, resetting the engine and then closing everything.
this would also be my advice.. to reassemble the nav hood in your car.
I will go test the screen now again since i removed the green antenna cable and post any progress
-thnx!
10-17-2010, 04:06 AM
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IT WORKS!
i guess it was that antenna cable picking up something strange, somehow i can hit my head against a wall for not coming up with this myself haha thanks a bunch <3
now i can start putting my car back together :P
oh i also added a ferrietkern (dunno whats it called in english) but it is a small magnetic thing that you also find on the end of your monitor cables. just to be sure!
i guess it was that antenna cable picking up something strange, somehow i can hit my head against a wall for not coming up with this myself haha thanks a bunch <3
now i can start putting my car back together :P
oh i also added a ferrietkern (dunno whats it called in english) but it is a small magnetic thing that you also find on the end of your monitor cables. just to be sure!
10-19-2010, 07:38 AM
#7
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That’s great, glad we could figure this out. I too have my Lilliput mounted in the Nav Hood and working properly!!!!!
But had a few issues:
First time I put it all together, could not get the motor to work properly with is not opening or closing at first, but disassembled it a 2nd time and fiddled with the motor plugs. Then tested just the hood part and watched the motor until I could get the open/close and tilt to work. Must have been some sort of connection problem with the motor wires!!! Reassembled and aligned the gears and got the open/close/tilt to all work great.
Second issue now was with the Touch screen. It was going crazy, and seem like it was being constantly touched. So had to disassemble it AGAIN (I think I can take this Nav Hood apart and reassemble it with my eyes closed).
Fixed this issue and actually better aligned my screen (didn’t realize it was a little offset on the left and the bottom) by cutting out the original part of the Lilliput housing that held the screen in place (needed that slightly raised ridge to keep the metal Nav Hood screen holder from touching the screen) and mounting the screen to this plastic frame then into the metal housing. Wasn’t too hard with a dremel and got it so close that the screen went in perfect (and actually now I don’t have more than 1mm blocked by the nav hood on the top and bottom of the screen)
Now it’s working great. Just have to figure out how to setup these front ends and it’s going in. I started taking pictures of the final assembly for a DIY, but damn camera battery ran out when I was just about finished with the hood part so I don’t know how useful they will be for others
And yes, that black wire is NOT used anymore after replacing the original screen. Just have to figure out where I’m gonna pick up the 12Vs for the hood???? Don’t think it draws to much current so maybe off the fuse block???
But had a few issues:
First time I put it all together, could not get the motor to work properly with is not opening or closing at first, but disassembled it a 2nd time and fiddled with the motor plugs. Then tested just the hood part and watched the motor until I could get the open/close and tilt to work. Must have been some sort of connection problem with the motor wires!!! Reassembled and aligned the gears and got the open/close/tilt to all work great.
Second issue now was with the Touch screen. It was going crazy, and seem like it was being constantly touched. So had to disassemble it AGAIN (I think I can take this Nav Hood apart and reassemble it with my eyes closed).
Fixed this issue and actually better aligned my screen (didn’t realize it was a little offset on the left and the bottom) by cutting out the original part of the Lilliput housing that held the screen in place (needed that slightly raised ridge to keep the metal Nav Hood screen holder from touching the screen) and mounting the screen to this plastic frame then into the metal housing. Wasn’t too hard with a dremel and got it so close that the screen went in perfect (and actually now I don’t have more than 1mm blocked by the nav hood on the top and bottom of the screen)
Now it’s working great. Just have to figure out how to setup these front ends and it’s going in. I started taking pictures of the final assembly for a DIY, but damn camera battery ran out when I was just about finished with the hood part so I don’t know how useful they will be for others
And yes, that black wire is NOT used anymore after replacing the original screen. Just have to figure out where I’m gonna pick up the 12Vs for the hood???? Don’t think it draws to much current so maybe off the fuse block???
10-20-2010, 03:31 AM
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You do not have the original cabling in your car?
if not i believe Alzor made a post about where to hook up the wires to for the nav hood. you will need one switched wire and one permanent power (since you want your nav hood to go down when you switch off your car)
using that plastic cover is a good idea to prevent touch trouble. now sometimes when i drive it one corner of my screen seems to be touched. so i guess i have to disassemble the unit AGAIN.
ah well atleast it isnt as scary as the first time
here is the link of mine working btw
if not i believe Alzor made a post about where to hook up the wires to for the nav hood. you will need one switched wire and one permanent power (since you want your nav hood to go down when you switch off your car)
using that plastic cover is a good idea to prevent touch trouble. now sometimes when i drive it one corner of my screen seems to be touched. so i guess i have to disassemble the unit AGAIN.
ah well atleast it isnt as scary as the first time
here is the link of mine working btw
10-20-2010, 07:30 AM
#10
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You do not have the original cabling in your car?
if not i believe Alzor made a post about where to hook up the wires to for the nav hood. you will need one switched wire and one permanent power (since you want your nav hood to go down when you switch off your car)
using that plastic cover is a good idea to prevent touch trouble. now sometimes when i drive it one corner of my screen seems to be touched. so i guess i have to disassemble the unit AGAIN.
ah well atleast it isnt as scary as the first time
if not i believe Alzor made a post about where to hook up the wires to for the nav hood. you will need one switched wire and one permanent power (since you want your nav hood to go down when you switch off your car)
using that plastic cover is a good idea to prevent touch trouble. now sometimes when i drive it one corner of my screen seems to be touched. so i guess i have to disassemble the unit AGAIN.
ah well atleast it isnt as scary as the first time
I already have all the wires hooked up to the Nav Hood, used some old 3.5inch drive power connectors. You pull out the wires and the ends have metal clips that fit perfectly onto the pins on the Nav Hood. Used some small squares of electrical tape to hold them in place while testing. Was going to solder em up for the final install but instead went to radio shack and picked up a couple of small unassembled connectors, going to cut off the Nav Hood connector completely and solder the pins I purchased directly to the board for a more permanent solution. Then use the other end of the pins and solder them to the wires (larger gauge wires) and have an easy way to connect /disconnect the Nav Hood for future improvements/troubleshooting. I’ll take pics of that so others can use the info.I'm sure once I get under the dash I will be able to locate constant +12 and a ground (going to tap the ACC fuse and pull 2 lines off it, one for the hood and one for my P2140). I asked because I was just seeing if somebody already knew the easiest place to tap the battery and ground from under the dash for the Nav Hood? I don’t think I will need to run a power wire directly to the battery (and I don’t want to do this). Maybe I’ll search for that, or someone can link me it and save me time.
I think I can manage to fill in the blanks up to this point and start taking more pictures. Want to create complete DIY for carPC to Nav Hood install guide since there really isn’t one. Ill shoot a quick video when I get home and show you my bench setup (its pretty cool, using a rolling 3 shelf storage unit that I installed the entire PC on. Allows me to move it around and bring it out to the car to test functions without having to install everything into the car). Too bad all my clothes are now on the floor, but the sacrifices we make for our cars!!!!
Pull the wires and pins out of some old 3.5inch drive power connectors and hook em up to the nav hood connector for testing. Its easy and takes no time. That idea I learned form somewhere on this board....just cant remeber which post so I apologize for not giving proper credit. I would do this and get the Nav Hood working before I went ahead and did permanent soldering.
You never replied to my last PM, but I purchased the equipment anyways. As for this weekend, I'm still planning on it, but won't know until Sat because I have to work that morning and it could possible be there all day. So don't expect me and hopefully I'll be able to show up early afternoon. If not this time, well get together another time.
Last edited by Scarslett; 10-20-2010 at 07:34 AM.
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