forbidden

<shakes head in disbelief>...... an accident waiting for a place to happen dude.... go back to square one, do not pass go, do not buy a darn thing.

DreamWarrior

Dude almost every amp in Zapco's lineup is < .03 THD+noise, and most of them are < .02...they're pricey, but they're damn sweet amps! And if you spend the money for their C2K series then most every amp in that line is < .009 except for the 2000 watt class T sub amp which is < .05.

IMO, Zapco amps > * if you're willing to spend the dough.

staticlag

2 JL audio 13w7
2 JL audio 1000/1 amps.

Though with the box size required for just those two, your going to have to convert the ENTIRE trunk into a speaker box.

lurch519

ok, to begin with, there is no point in spending that much money on amps unless you are going to replace the head unit. an audio system is only going to sound as good as the worst performing component. basically if you put in an amp that has ultra low distortion, you will never notice the difference because the head unit is not going to be performing at that level

now if you want to go baller, replace the stock headunit with alpine's f-1 status and their high end processor. then do the diamond d-9 amps. in a side by side comparison between the d9's and a macintosh home amp, the d9 blew the mac out of the water.

DreamWarrior

You actually believe the factory head is that much worse than an aftermarket piece? Come on.... It may distort faster, but that can be fixed with the gains. Even better in this application because a balanced line converter can be hooked to the rear of the head and its gain can be adjusted before even running into the amp.

Seriously, the head does nothing more than D->A convertion and slight amplification. It may be the first piece of the chain, but I'd say its far from the weakest link. For that you can look to your speakers.

TRU681

Stock unit & aftermarket unit is like night & day. You been to IASCA events so you should know how much a difference a stock unit & aftermaket unit is. If there's not much differerce aftermarket unit s would not be in the market because nobody would buy it if there's not much of a difference.

TRU681

To get the full potential of this system, you'll have to upgrade the alternator. You can still do it but not to it's full potential without the ugrade of a 200amp alternator. Also you have to buy another amp for the mids & highs so at least 3 amps for the set-up which will require even more juice from the alternator.

lurch519

in my experience, the factory head unit should almost be the first piece to be replaced in any OEM system. i grant that the stereo in the 8 from the factory is very good. but a good aftermarket headunit will perform much better

forbidden

Not in all cases....

DreamWarrior

I've been to and won many, however the only reason I didn't have the stock deck then was because I wanted the MP3 capability. The only differences I see are: more amp. power (which you're not using anyway if you add amps), a better EQ section (which I didn't use), plus potential crossovers, and a pretty display. So what does that leave? The DACs, other features, and...what?
How? Honestly?

Higher voltage outputs? Solved, balanced output from stock -> balanced high voltage Zapco Symballink line transmitter.

EQ/Crossover sections? Solved, buy a real EQ/x-over and don't rely on the deck's internal one.

Better DACs? Now you're going crazy...or have superhuman ears.

I grant you features and a pretty display, that's about it.

lurch519

if all you wanted was mp3 capability, why not just use an aux in module, certainly cheaper than doing a new headunit?

so, you are familiar with mp3's. what happens when you rip an mp3, then take that mp3 and burn it to a cd....hmmm, quality kinda diminishes huh. so what happens when you take a signal, amplify it, then conver it to rca using a LOC or "balanced high voltage Zapco Symballink line transmitter" or what ever your preferred method of converting the signal, then reamplifying it, kinda the same thing that happens to that mp3.

wouldnt think of using the built in eq or crossover unless you werent using amps, or the customer was just being cheap

your right, unless you have super expensive equipment, you wont notice a difference here

WalKiNThReT

umm im still confused can any1 give me a list of what i need to buy(dream warrior) im interested in your system since u won competitions, what do u have in yours?

DreamWarrior

Ummm...I don't know what you mean here. The output from the stock Bose head is 2.2 volts balanced. The output of many good aftermarket heads is around 4-5 volts UNBALANCED.

So, I take the 2.2 volts of balanced output and run it into a balanced line transmitter to get an 8 volt balanced signal back to the amps.

In my old competition system I had a Kenwood Excelon 828 MP3 head with a 4 volt unbalanced output which was shot into the same line transmitter I'm using now to get an 8 volt balanced signal back to the amps.

I'm NOT touching speaker level signals...EVER! So...I don't see where you're coming from. But I can tell you that the head will perform just fine the way its set up.

edit: BTW, your MP3 analogy is inaccurate. MP3s "lose" quality for much different reasons than signal amplification/distortion. I'm very familiar with how MP3 and similar psycho-acoustically compressed formats achieve their compression. Fortunatelly, I am not one of the "golden ears" that can easily detect differences in well ripped and encoded MP3s.
My old system was in a Camaro and it wouldn't fit in this car if I wanted it to. All in all I had about 10k of equipment in that car, if you have that kind of budget then the right shop will certainly be able to make your system sound nuts. Remeber, though, that the equipment is only as good as the shop that puts it in.

As for a "list" of what to buy, it's really hard to say in non-generic terms. I would suggest you talk to a good shop. People's ears are all different, so recommending you a certain brand of speakers or what not is tough. However, just about any well installed set of speakers can be tweaked to sound excellent if you're willing to spend the cash on processing equipment.

Here's a generic list, though:

- Speaker set-up: either two or three way component set for the front. I'd look into a set with 8" midbass because it'll make a good deal of difference in midbass response and allow the image to stay forward. However, if all you listen to is rap/techno then it may be mute because generally people listening to that kind of music like their subs to do most of the bass/midbass work anyway. I have the DLS Iridium 8.3 component set and I've also heard it in a few other vehicles and it is quite nice sounding.

- Subs: This is tough, and depending on how much trunk space you're willing to give up you can have anything from a single 8"/10" to a single 18" sub. I'd figure out what kind of space you're willing to give up for a box and pick a sub that'll play in that airspace how you want it. Keep in mind with less airspace generally you need more power for the same output capabilities.

- Amps: I like Zapco, but it may be overkill. Either way, the shop you talk to will probably have their "pet brands" so find out what they are and get opinions on them. Generally, you won't hear the difference in an amp. However, many amp companies overstate their power capabilities, this you will hear because you won't get the power you want without distortion.

- Processing: Alpine, Audiocontrol, and Zapco all make great processing equipment. The problem with a lot of Zapco's current stuff is finding a good location in this car to install it where you have access to it. Audiocontrol and Alpine have remote mountable units with smaller controls that can be easily located in the front of the vehicle. Zapco is coming out with a similar unit, but it won't be finished for a while. Either way you'll probably want at least an x-over unit, and a 1/3rd octave EQ is always good if the shop is a good tuner. If they're not, then you'll need to find someone who is or you'll be wasting your money on great processing. In fact, I'd say that second to the installation the processing equipment and use thereof is the most important aspect of the system; especially in an environment like a car where everything is fighting against your stage and image quality. The quality of the speakers and their install location will determine how much processing needs to be dialed in, however no amount of processing will overcome extremely **** install locations or speakers.

TRU681

[QUOTE=DreamWarrior]Ummm...I don't know what you mean here. The output from the stock Bose head is 2.2 volts balanced. The output of many good aftermarket heads is around 4-5 volts UNBALANCED.

So, I take the 2.2 volts of balanced output and run it into a balanced line transmitter to get an 8 volt balanced signal back to the amps.

In my old competition system I had a Kenwood Excelon 828 MP3 head with a 4 volt unbalanced output which was shot into the same line transmitter I'm using now to get an 8 volt balanced signal back to the amps.


Umm, the Zapco symbillink that you use has balance output=18volts & unbalanced outout= 9volts. Sounds like Unbalanced is rms & Balanced output is max. The bose 2.2 volt max output is not great. I'll take the rms outputs by aftermarket units.

lurch519

its been awhile, but if i remember correctly, a balanced output will utilize 2 rca's for 1 channel of out put, whereas an unbalanced output will just use 1 rca . also there isnt a "rms" output for line level signal. also, if you look at alpine's lineup for 2005, which i am sure everyone here will agree is a quality product, all but 1 of their regular head units is 2 volt on the rca's, the one exception (not counting dvd head units or any of the indash monitors) is the cda-9855, which has 4 volt preouts and also has the blackout feature, which is supposed to allow for cleaner output at higher volumes

DreamWarrior

To answer the above: I don't know why you guys are so hung up on this. Its a LOW level balanced signal from the head converted to a HIGHER level balanced signal. I never break the balance chain, and I'm not deamplifying anything. The signal only gets higher and thus rejects noise better upon its long run to the rear. The cable carrying the "pitiful" 2.2 volt balanced signal is less than a foot. Besides, I'll take a 2.2 volt balanced signal over a 4 volt unbalanced any day :p. Either way, you're too hung up on the output voltage. I just keep the head below clipping and turn up the gains on the transmitter to get maximum voltage back to the amp without clipping that. Beyond that the only thing more voltage will get me is a cleaner signal over longer, potentially noisy, runs. Which I've taken care of by running a higher voltage signal back to the rear via the Symbilink transmitter.

Honestly, while I may wind up eating my words, so far the MP3 factory head seems clean enough for me. I haven't yet had a zero-bit track in there to see if its SNR sucks, but from what I can tell so far it's good enough. We'll see, when I'm done maybe I'll see y'all in the lanes if I decide to compete...with my "paultry" factory head and probably a couple grand worth of eq and x-over equipment :D.

edit: and a balanced signal doesn't require two RCA's at all, it just means that the negative is inversed positive signal rather than a common ground. A balanced signal can be carried on normal RCA cables just fine.