Where do I start When learning how to tune?
06-15-2012, 10:31 AM
#1
Is Nifty
Thread Starter
Where do I start When learning how to tune?
Hello Tuners,
I have an AP that I bought from MM several years ago and I don't wan't to spend the effort trying to get a hold of him. What's worse is that I'm currently running his base tune and could never get a specific one. I'd rather just learn how to tune with my AP all by myself. I know there are already some really good threads in here but I was wondering what I should do to make sure my car is ready to be tuned.
New spark plugs? clean air filter? I'm guessing I should just do some general maintenance to eliminate any unnecessary factors.
After that I'm concerned about the OMP mainly. I know that the MM tunes increase the OMP to better lubricate everything and I think I'd like to keep doing that. Can anyone tell me the core things I should/could change right away before I start messing with fuel and stuff?
Thanks!
I have an AP that I bought from MM several years ago and I don't wan't to spend the effort trying to get a hold of him. What's worse is that I'm currently running his base tune and could never get a specific one. I'd rather just learn how to tune with my AP all by myself. I know there are already some really good threads in here but I was wondering what I should do to make sure my car is ready to be tuned.
New spark plugs? clean air filter? I'm guessing I should just do some general maintenance to eliminate any unnecessary factors.
After that I'm concerned about the OMP mainly. I know that the MM tunes increase the OMP to better lubricate everything and I think I'd like to keep doing that. Can anyone tell me the core things I should/could change right away before I start messing with fuel and stuff?
Thanks!
06-15-2012, 12:41 PM
#2
Read the sticky "FI for dummies". There are books listed that you can read. They're not rotary specific, but it will give you an idea.
As for the AP specific, you're best bet is to contact MM via his website (he's been banned from this site), and find out if/when he is running his next seminar.
Most of all, read. Educate yourself by reading as many threads as possible. There are many to go through! But, if you want to learn PROPERLY, then that is the best advice
As for the AP specific, you're best bet is to contact MM via his website (he's been banned from this site), and find out if/when he is running his next seminar.
Most of all, read. Educate yourself by reading as many threads as possible. There are many to go through! But, if you want to learn PROPERLY, then that is the best advice
06-15-2012, 02:31 PM
#4
Simple method:
Take some logs, the technique described in MMs thread is fine. You just need data from idle, cruising, 2nd gear full throttle, and 3rd or 4th full throttle.
Cleaning the MAF is a good idea.
Scaling the MAF table at the low end is the easiest way to eliminate fuel trims. Reducing fuel trims is important, because the long-term fuel trim (LTFT) that is developed under highway cruising conditions in closed-loop will affect full-throttle open-loop fuel delivery.
LTFTs are set over three ranges.
1-9 grams/second
9-20 g/sec
20-200 g/sec
Just select each range, hit m, and multiply the values by the error you are seeing in the log for that range.
For the last range, there is no need to scale the MAF beyond 100g/sec.
Iterate until the trims approach zero.
Adjust the fuel tables for gears 1-2 and 3-4 based on your full-throttle logs.
Iterate until you see the AFR you want. Best power is usually in the mid-13s, it is may be safer to aim for high 12s.
I find a visual log viewer like MegaLogViewer is a much easier way to view logs.
For the OMP, just increase the values in the load-based table.
I can't find it right now, but I have a Mazda research paper in which they measured oil delivery rate vs wall temperature. Temp decreases with increasing oil delivery, and then flat-lines.
In other words, there is an optimal point, but the only problem in going beyond the optimum is increased oil consumption. I have an OMP adapter/tank, and I like the smell of premixy exhaust, so have this table adjusted liberally.
Adjust the coil dwell times.
Done.
Not the way I do it, but I think this method is easy enough, and will probably give 95% of the improvements possible on an NA car.
Take some logs, the technique described in MMs thread is fine. You just need data from idle, cruising, 2nd gear full throttle, and 3rd or 4th full throttle.
Cleaning the MAF is a good idea.
Scaling the MAF table at the low end is the easiest way to eliminate fuel trims. Reducing fuel trims is important, because the long-term fuel trim (LTFT) that is developed under highway cruising conditions in closed-loop will affect full-throttle open-loop fuel delivery.
LTFTs are set over three ranges.
1-9 grams/second
9-20 g/sec
20-200 g/sec
Just select each range, hit m, and multiply the values by the error you are seeing in the log for that range.
For the last range, there is no need to scale the MAF beyond 100g/sec.
Iterate until the trims approach zero.
Adjust the fuel tables for gears 1-2 and 3-4 based on your full-throttle logs.
Iterate until you see the AFR you want. Best power is usually in the mid-13s, it is may be safer to aim for high 12s.
I find a visual log viewer like MegaLogViewer is a much easier way to view logs.
For the OMP, just increase the values in the load-based table.
I can't find it right now, but I have a Mazda research paper in which they measured oil delivery rate vs wall temperature. Temp decreases with increasing oil delivery, and then flat-lines.
In other words, there is an optimal point, but the only problem in going beyond the optimum is increased oil consumption. I have an OMP adapter/tank, and I like the smell of premixy exhaust, so have this table adjusted liberally.
Code:
3.00 3.00 3.00 4.00 5.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 9.00 10.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 15.00 19.00 19.00 21.00 5.00 5.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 9.00 10.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 13.00 15.00 18.00 21.00 25.00 29.00 7.00 7.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 9.00 9.00 10.00 11.00 11.00 12.00 13.00 13.00 15.00 17.00 21.00 25.00 30.00 36.00 9.00 9.00 9.00 9.00 10.00 10.00 11.00 11.00 12.00 12.00 13.00 14.00 15.00 17.00 20.00 24.00 29.00 35.00 42.00 11.00 11.00 11.00 11.00 12.00 12.00 12.00 13.00 13.00 14.00 14.00 15.00 17.00 20.00 23.00 28.00 34.00 39.00 45.00 12.00 12.00 13.00 13.00 13.00 13.00 14.00 14.00 15.00 15.00 16.00 17.00 19.00 23.00 27.00 33.00 38.00 42.00 46.00 14.00 14.00 14.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 16.00 16.00 17.00 17.00 19.00 21.00 25.00 31.00 36.00 41.00 44.00 48.00 16.00 16.00 16.00 16.00 17.00 17.00 17.00 17.00 18.00 18.00 19.00 20.00 23.00 28.00 34.00 39.00 43.00 46.00 49.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 19.00 19.00 20.00 20.00 21.00 24.00 29.00 35.00 41.00 45.00 48.00 51.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 21.00 21.00 23.00 26.00 31.00 37.00 42.00 46.00 49.00 53.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 22.00 23.00 24.00 28.00 32.00 38.00 43.00 47.00 51.00 54.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 30.00 35.00 40.00 45.00 49.00 52.00 56.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 29.00 33.00 38.00 43.00 47.00 50.00 54.00 57.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 27.00 30.00 33.00 38.00 42.00 47.00 50.00 53.00 56.00 58.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 28.00 31.00 33.00 36.00 40.00 45.00 50.00 53.00 56.00 58.00 60.00 60.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 26.00 30.00 34.00 38.00 41.00 44.00 49.00 54.00 59.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 22.00 21.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 27.00 33.00 37.00 42.00 45.00 49.00 54.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00
Done.
Not the way I do it, but I think this method is easy enough, and will probably give 95% of the improvements possible on an NA car.
Last edited by oltmann; 06-18-2012 at 11:34 AM.
06-16-2012, 11:30 AM
#7
I think what you are saying is What should one use to log or measure (monitor) AFR's?
Assuming the Goodbox takes its values from the same Front O2 sensor (canbus data) that the Cobb AP does ... I would assume they would be good enough.
I don't know about polling frequency of the Goodbox, how fast it updates the Front O2 measured AFR
06-16-2012, 03:25 PM
#8
Not sure about this car (I'm just getting into tuning) but on my last car everyone would talk about going to a wideband O2 because the oem was junk. I'm still in the works of getting the AP, and probably jumped the gun on that question.. I'm going to be such a wreck when the day comes to start changing settings... Back to searching and reading.
06-17-2012, 12:07 PM
#10
The OEM sensor is fine unless you have a turbo. Widebands are affected by pressure in the exhaust system; the sensor should be moved post-turbo or a second wideband should added for measuring mixture under boost.
06-17-2012, 03:59 PM
#12
Simple method:
Take some logs, the technique described in MMs thread is fine. You just need data from idle, cruising, 2nd gear full throttle, and 3rd or 4th full throttle.
Cleaning the MAF is a good idea.
Scaling the MAF table at the low end is the easiest way to eliminate fuel trims. Reducing fuel trims is important, because the long-term fuel trim (LTFT) that is developed under highway cruising conditions in closed-loop will affect full-throttle open-loop fuel delivery.
LTFTs are set over three ranges.
1-9 grams/second
9-20 g/sec
20-200 g/sec
Just select each range, hit m, and multiply the values by the error you are seeing in the log for that range.
For the last range, there is no need to scale the MAF beyond 100g/sec.
Iterate until the trims approach zero.
Adjust the fuel tables for gears 1-2 and 3-4 based on your full-throttle logs.
Iterate until you see the AFR you want. Best power is usually in the mid-13s, it is may be safer to aim for high 12s.
I find a visual log viewer like MegaLogViewer is a much easier way to view logs.
For the OMP, just increase the values in the load-based table.
I can't find it right now, but I have a Mazda research paper in which they measured oil delivery rate vs wall temperature. Temp decreases with increasing oil delivery, and then flat-lines.
Adjust the coil dwell times.
Done.
Not the way I do it, but I think this method is easy enough, and will probably give 95% of the improvements possible on an NA car.
Take some logs, the technique described in MMs thread is fine. You just need data from idle, cruising, 2nd gear full throttle, and 3rd or 4th full throttle.
Cleaning the MAF is a good idea.
Scaling the MAF table at the low end is the easiest way to eliminate fuel trims. Reducing fuel trims is important, because the long-term fuel trim (LTFT) that is developed under highway cruising conditions in closed-loop will affect full-throttle open-loop fuel delivery.
LTFTs are set over three ranges.
1-9 grams/second
9-20 g/sec
20-200 g/sec
Just select each range, hit m, and multiply the values by the error you are seeing in the log for that range.
For the last range, there is no need to scale the MAF beyond 100g/sec.
Iterate until the trims approach zero.
Adjust the fuel tables for gears 1-2 and 3-4 based on your full-throttle logs.
Iterate until you see the AFR you want. Best power is usually in the mid-13s, it is may be safer to aim for high 12s.
I find a visual log viewer like MegaLogViewer is a much easier way to view logs.
For the OMP, just increase the values in the load-based table.
I can't find it right now, but I have a Mazda research paper in which they measured oil delivery rate vs wall temperature. Temp decreases with increasing oil delivery, and then flat-lines.
Adjust the coil dwell times.
Done.
Not the way I do it, but I think this method is easy enough, and will probably give 95% of the improvements possible on an NA car.
Last edited by Brettus; 06-17-2012 at 08:47 PM.
06-17-2012, 09:47 PM
#16
This post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=173 seems to give the max effective number as 60. However in this one, https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2027203&postcount=150 Delmeister indicates an *assumption* that 60 is max. I'm not entirely sure where that assumption stops. Naively, I scaled entire table by 1.33 which means my new max was 80. There don't seem to be any ill effects so far, but if more than 72 steps disengages the stepper gear, I'm also rather wondering if something bad may have happened without me noticing yet. Oil consumption does seem to be up quite a bit over the stock map, but I've only driven ~ 600 miles since the change.
06-17-2012, 10:27 PM
#17
Nice summary!
As a noob to this, your posts have been extremely helpful!
A few clarifications for fellow noobs - feel free to correct me as needed. First, the 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 tables only apply to 04-05 models, later ones have only 1-3 and 4-6 tables. Wrt LTFT's, they are an average of STFT's over time. When loading any new tune, these are zeroed and only slowly go back to 'real' values. The real trim at any given time is the sum of LTFT and STFT (which wiggles around). The cruise logging is done at 4200 rpm in 4th gear on level ground, lights and AC on to assure that the PCM is in open loop. The easy way to tell if you're in open loop is that the STFT reads a steady zero. The Cobb Stock map is a ~copy of OEM. Once you marry the AP to your car, in Race Tuner 'file --> revert to stock map' will load the exact settings into RT that were in your car when it was mated. The main difference between Stage 1 and stock is that the ignition timing split has been reduced from ~15 degrees to ~5 degrees. Leaning the fuel map for best power may destroy your stock cat. Opinions vary, but most agree that it's so rich at high loads/rpms to keep the EGT temps down. It also serves to suppress detonation, so I wouldn't try 87 octane with a leaner tune. Adjusting dwell is probably not worth doing with stock coils, and takes some expertise with aftermarket coils. Fan speed, oil metering, and MAF calibration are the big 3 anyway.
As a practical matter, keep a running log of your changes; it's easy to get confused about what is in which pretty quickly. Also, make sure your battery is well-charged when uploading into the car, as well as holding the AP carefully without wiggling the cable. If there is a break in the upload, you may have to tow the car to a dealer for a reflash.
As a noob to this, your posts have been extremely helpful!
A few clarifications for fellow noobs - feel free to correct me as needed. First, the 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 tables only apply to 04-05 models, later ones have only 1-3 and 4-6 tables. Wrt LTFT's, they are an average of STFT's over time. When loading any new tune, these are zeroed and only slowly go back to 'real' values. The real trim at any given time is the sum of LTFT and STFT (which wiggles around). The cruise logging is done at 4200 rpm in 4th gear on level ground, lights and AC on to assure that the PCM is in open loop. The easy way to tell if you're in open loop is that the STFT reads a steady zero. The Cobb Stock map is a ~copy of OEM. Once you marry the AP to your car, in Race Tuner 'file --> revert to stock map' will load the exact settings into RT that were in your car when it was mated. The main difference between Stage 1 and stock is that the ignition timing split has been reduced from ~15 degrees to ~5 degrees. Leaning the fuel map for best power may destroy your stock cat. Opinions vary, but most agree that it's so rich at high loads/rpms to keep the EGT temps down. It also serves to suppress detonation, so I wouldn't try 87 octane with a leaner tune. Adjusting dwell is probably not worth doing with stock coils, and takes some expertise with aftermarket coils. Fan speed, oil metering, and MAF calibration are the big 3 anyway.
As a practical matter, keep a running log of your changes; it's easy to get confused about what is in which pretty quickly. Also, make sure your battery is well-charged when uploading into the car, as well as holding the AP carefully without wiggling the cable. If there is a break in the upload, you may have to tow the car to a dealer for a reflash.
Last edited by HiFlite999; 06-17-2012 at 10:29 PM.
06-17-2012, 10:38 PM
#18
regarding D585/BHR coil dwell settings. CW has ppl simply taking the stock dwells and multiplying by 1.45. However, the more correct way via TeamRx8 and Oltmann is to work from the coil data sheet. Oltmann generated a super spread sheet here: https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=108
Dwell table value / 256 = dwell in msec.
Dwell table value / 256 = dwell in msec.
06-18-2012, 06:58 AM
#19
Do you know if the numbers in the table are a percentage of full output or if they are straight up stepper motor steps?
This post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=173 seems to give the max effective number as 60. However in this one, https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2027203&postcount=150 Delmeister indicates an *assumption* that 60 is max.
This post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=173 seems to give the max effective number as 60. However in this one, https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2027203&postcount=150 Delmeister indicates an *assumption* that 60 is max.
At the time it never occurred to me to ask what 60 exactly represented.
Now what is interesting is, I have a OMP map from both MM and Kane.
MM's highest values are 60, while Kane's go well past that.
06-18-2012, 11:59 AM
#20
I am curious as to why it is thought that the S1 model omp needs to increase its out put from the latest pcm reflash setting?
My question about the dwell concerns the system voltage that the ignition coils have to work with. 1-1/2 volt difference has an impact on the coils and the fuel pump etc. Yes--the system compensates with a voltage table for the coils--but does it compensate for voltage with the fuel injectors and the fuel pump? I can see where it probably does for the fuel injectors--but I bet it doesnt for the fuel pump. If you are not FI--this thought probably doesnt mean anything. But if you are FI'd--it may be worth looking at?
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My question about the dwell concerns the system voltage that the ignition coils have to work with. 1-1/2 volt difference has an impact on the coils and the fuel pump etc. Yes--the system compensates with a voltage table for the coils--but does it compensate for voltage with the fuel injectors and the fuel pump? I can see where it probably does for the fuel injectors--but I bet it doesnt for the fuel pump. If you are not FI--this thought probably doesnt mean anything. But if you are FI'd--it may be worth looking at?
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06-18-2012, 12:04 PM
#21
You guys are right, thanks for catching that! 60 steps is the max.
Don't recall how I did that.
Fortunately, there looks to be bounds checking, and the OMP resets the zero position on every start. Which is to say, it hasn't blown up yet.
Don't recall how I did that.
Fortunately, there looks to be bounds checking, and the OMP resets the zero position on every start. Which is to say, it hasn't blown up yet.
