Stage number explainations
06-08-2004, 03:45 PM
#51
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Jay, and all involved. Maurice just E-mailed me and informed me that he will be working on a new stage 2 map for everyone with at least 40 H.P. He said he will have a final map ready in the next 10 days or so. I believe Maurice, RX8 friend and all involved are working very hard and are very sincere in their efforts to give us affordable performance. Jay, I would wait as I'm sure Maurice will contact you if he hasn't already, and fix your problem.
06-08-2004, 05:11 PM
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WOW thats great news as i was going to take my car to a performance shop,to do a better job on my stage 1 unit. there charging me 150.00 an HOUR!!! BUT I HAVE HEARD NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS ABOUT THIS SHOP.they even have cars that race on the track rotaries that is.
06-08-2004, 10:09 PM
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Just to answer your questions:
Stage 1 and 2 are the same hardware, only the map is different. The Stage 2 map is not out yet. Stage 2 requires the High flow cat (and resonator - which is optional), so the "Stage 2" kit sold on our site includes it.
A competent shop could tune the unit in your car with the software and cable, but they would add a wideband O2 sensor (if they don't, run away screaming
.
This would be more expensive, but I suspect you would get a better tune as your cars' variations would then be taken into account (providing they are familiar with the unit). Doing this, you could expect perhaps 30 HP peak gain in Stage 1 and 40+ HP in Stage 2 (we've gotten Maurice's car to 215 or so in stage 1 and 230+ stage 2 - with "race gas" in stage 2). These are Mustang dyno readings - real HP as opposed to dynojet numbers. Note most stock cars read around 180 HP at the wheels. This was pre-"M" flash, but that shouldn't have an effect, as we tune any drops they added out.
Also, I keep reading of people being disappointed in their results with our current box who don't have "M" flash. The current map is optimized for "M" flash. It will run other flashs "safely", but will not perform as well as with the "M" flash. Get the PCM flashed! There are other improvements it gives you, such as flooding prevention.
I know Steve Kan in Texas specializes in RX-7s with the Apex'i PFC, and charges $300 per car, for example. He'll fly anywhere as long as there are at least a certain number of cars to tune, and airfare and accomodations are supplied.
Just as a benchmark.
What shop were you considering. Maybe I know of them.
Stage 1 and 2 are the same hardware, only the map is different. The Stage 2 map is not out yet. Stage 2 requires the High flow cat (and resonator - which is optional), so the "Stage 2" kit sold on our site includes it.
A competent shop could tune the unit in your car with the software and cable, but they would add a wideband O2 sensor (if they don't, run away screaming
.This would be more expensive, but I suspect you would get a better tune as your cars' variations would then be taken into account (providing they are familiar with the unit). Doing this, you could expect perhaps 30 HP peak gain in Stage 1 and 40+ HP in Stage 2 (we've gotten Maurice's car to 215 or so in stage 1 and 230+ stage 2 - with "race gas" in stage 2). These are Mustang dyno readings - real HP as opposed to dynojet numbers. Note most stock cars read around 180 HP at the wheels. This was pre-"M" flash, but that shouldn't have an effect, as we tune any drops they added out.
Also, I keep reading of people being disappointed in their results with our current box who don't have "M" flash. The current map is optimized for "M" flash. It will run other flashs "safely", but will not perform as well as with the "M" flash. Get the PCM flashed! There are other improvements it gives you, such as flooding prevention.
I know Steve Kan in Texas specializes in RX-7s with the Apex'i PFC, and charges $300 per car, for example. He'll fly anywhere as long as there are at least a certain number of cars to tune, and airfare and accomodations are supplied.
Just as a benchmark.
What shop were you considering. Maybe I know of them.
Last edited by RX-8 friend; 06-08-2004 at 10:15 PM.
06-08-2004, 10:23 PM
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So....can somebody tell me what the expectation would be of if someone were to use a Stage 1 w/ midpipe/high-flow cat and cat-back? Previously, comments were made that you would see gains over Stage 1 and stock, but you'd need a Stage 2 to fully take advantage of the hardware. Then Jay posted a power loss, and comments were made that you could conceivably lose power with that configuration and a Stage 1 (which by the way doesn't seem right to me, barring something else being wrong). But anyway, what is the expectation of Maurice/RX-8 Friend/People Who Know of this scenario?
jds
jds
06-09-2004, 10:18 PM
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Not sure on the fuel - I think they said 98 or so. It was a test to see how far they could go (they being Maurice and the guy at the tuning shop where the Mustang dyno was/is). They have been collaborating on the development of the unit. They got it up to around 250 HP at the rear wheels, but this wouldn't be practical for a street car or for sale. Specialist tuners could get you to this level with our box, but you'd have to use race fuel.
As far as what to expect with Stage 1 and the high flow cat/resonator, it depends . If your car is still running too rich with the Stage 1 installed then the cat should improve HP. If your car is running a bit too lean once you install Stage 1 (but still ok), the high flow cat could run it further into lean, and reduce power. Depends on the MAF sensor you have. They seem to vary quite a bit. So far most have had good results, and a few have had problems. I would expect up to 5 HP with the high flow cat. in optimum conditions (still running a bit rich with the Stage 1 installed). Remember, it's not there to extract more power, it's there because the stock cat would melt when you go to Stage 2.
The biggest downside to the high flow cat so far has been the noise. With a cat back such as the Greddy or Borla, it can be a bit too noisy if you are old enough . With the stock cat back (stock muffler is what I'm talking about), it's just fine. In fact I can just hear the exhaust with the windows open in city driving.
Yeah, I got to drive Maurice's car - from the airport to his home when he left a week ago, and back to the airport just today - about 30 km each way.
I'll post my impressions, in another thread.
As far as what to expect with Stage 1 and the high flow cat/resonator, it depends
. If your car is still running too rich with the Stage 1 installed then the cat should improve HP. If your car is running a bit too lean once you install Stage 1 (but still ok), the high flow cat could run it further into lean, and reduce power. Depends on the MAF sensor you have. They seem to vary quite a bit. So far most have had good results, and a few have had problems. I would expect up to 5 HP with the high flow cat. in optimum conditions (still running a bit rich with the Stage 1 installed). Remember, it's not there to extract more power, it's there because the stock cat would melt when you go to Stage 2.The biggest downside to the high flow cat so far has been the noise. With a cat back such as the Greddy or Borla, it can be a bit too noisy if you are old enough
. With the stock cat back (stock muffler is what I'm talking about), it's just fine. In fact I can just hear the exhaust with the windows open in city driving.Yeah, I got to drive Maurice's car - from the airport to his home when he left a week ago, and back to the airport just today - about 30 km each way.
I'll post my impressions, in another thread.
Last edited by RX-8 friend; 06-09-2004 at 10:21 PM.
06-10-2004, 06:00 AM
#58
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Originally posted by RX-8 friend
If your car is still running too rich with the Stage 1 installed then the cat should improve HP. If your car is running a bit too lean once you install Stage 1 (but still ok), the high flow cat could run it further into lean, and reduce power. Depends on the MAF sensor you have. They seem to vary quite a bit. So far most have had good results, and a few have had problems. I would expect up to 5 HP with the high flow cat. in optimum conditions
If your car is still running too rich with the Stage 1 installed then the cat should improve HP. If your car is running a bit too lean once you install Stage 1 (but still ok), the high flow cat could run it further into lean, and reduce power. Depends on the MAF sensor you have. They seem to vary quite a bit. So far most have had good results, and a few have had problems. I would expect up to 5 HP with the high flow cat. in optimum conditions
Which aftermarket MAF is a good choice?
06-10-2004, 08:15 AM
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Thanks for the reply RX8 friend. I would suspect the cat would help out as I "think" I'm running rich after the "M" flash due to the MPG and black soot that accumulates daily on the tail pipes. The use of race gas all the time would not be practical and it would be costly, so going with a set stage 2 map and utilizing high quality 93 octane gas would be the best bet. And it wouldn't hurt to put in a little octane boost before you go redlining the RPMs.
06-10-2004, 10:21 PM
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Actually, the problem point is around 6500 RPM, where the intake tract switches. It's fine above and below that, even when tuned too far.
Magic8, wait a while. We are working on a MAF replacement project. Maurice has found inexpensive MAFs and we will be charactarizing them to try to figure out exactly what is happening. They are the same as the stock ones, just not from Mazda.
I don't like "octane boost" products. Too expensive. If you can find tolulene, you will notice it is much less expensive. Search on the net for amounts to add. I'm not a petrolium engineer, and don't want to give any advice on that.
Magic8, wait a while. We are working on a MAF replacement project. Maurice has found inexpensive MAFs and we will be charactarizing them to try to figure out exactly what is happening. They are the same as the stock ones, just not from Mazda.
I don't like "octane boost" products. Too expensive. If you can find tolulene, you will notice it is much less expensive. Search on the net for amounts to add. I'm not a petrolium engineer, and don't want to give any advice on that.
06-17-2004, 10:28 PM
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We worked today on the Stage 3 installation. This is not for the faint of heart! You have to run cables from the engine compartment into the cab, and mount the unit on/in the dash. Today we found a good location for most to run the cable into the cab. On the far left of the firewall you will see the brake master cylinder and booster. To the left of that you will see another dohicky (the clutch master cylinder). Under that is a wire harness feedthrough. The underside of that large rubber feedthrough is perfect for running cable through. It's accessable from the drivers side floor - you can even see it! We punched a hole in it to run wire through. Cutting a slot with an exacto knife will allow you to get a USB A/B cable through as well.
We also found "ignition" voltage, needed by the Stage 3. In the underhood fuse and relay box we used the "Power window" fuse (sunroof) which is not present in Maurice's car, so we added a 7.5 Amp fuse to that position - if you have a sunroof you use the output side of that fuse (left) and an inline fuse supplied with the Stage 3 kit. "Ignition" is not available in the cab.
Tomorrow we do more testing with the Stage 3 electronics.
We also found "ignition" voltage, needed by the Stage 3. In the underhood fuse and relay box we used the "Power window" fuse (sunroof) which is not present in Maurice's car, so we added a 7.5 Amp fuse to that position - if you have a sunroof you use the output side of that fuse (left) and an inline fuse supplied with the Stage 3 kit. "Ignition" is not available in the cab.
Tomorrow we do more testing with the Stage 3 electronics.
06-18-2004, 09:35 PM
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OK, we had great success this time with the Stage 3 module. It really wants "ignition" as power (previously we had tried testing it using "accessory" power).
A few quirks about it.
1. It will require different maps from the standard Stage 1. We've been using one ignition pulse for RPM, and the Stage 3 has a tach input, so to read correctly we will need to use both ignition pulses. Not a big deal. Maurice will translate the maps and we can load them into the unit. We will also need to modify your Stage 1 module when you are ready to install Stage 3. We will switch it to full RPM operation. We will have to issue two versions of any map we create, one for Stage 1 and one for Stage 1 with Stage 3.
2. It's not happy until you start the engine. Just turning the key on doesn't do it. It displays noise on the screen. As soon as you start the engine it boots up.
3. The SD card it uses cannot be read on a "normal" computer. I'm told it's not formatted with a file system - it just has data stored on it. Because of this you can't back it up, load or save maps to/from your computer, etc. You can still have several cards and swap them in/out. We may be able to come up with a method to read/write to it, but we don't have that now.
4. We have found no way to communicate with it with a computer. The only way we have found to load maps into it is to send them to the Stage 1 box, connect the stage 3, and load and save them to it. Conversly, if you create your own map with the Stage 3, you can save it to the Stage 1 and connect the computer to it and save it to the computer. A little "clunky", but workable for now.
So, it's an inexpensive display/programming device you can use in the car - lets you change maps on the fly. Lets you change the maps (tune the car). Lets you monitor various parameters (see post way above).
Yes, a small computer running the program can do a lot more a lot easier. Yes, that would be about 3-4 times as expensive.
Mounting:- We moved the display around trying to figure out where the best place would be. Looks like the centre of the dash, on top is best. You can use the Nav Tray or velcro. Advantage with the nav tray is it looks like it belongs there. Advantage with velcro is you can pull it off and stick it in the glovebox, if you're worried about theft (they're not interested in breaking in if they can't see anything worth stealing).
A few quirks about it.
1. It will require different maps from the standard Stage 1. We've been using one ignition pulse for RPM, and the Stage 3 has a tach input, so to read correctly we will need to use both ignition pulses. Not a big deal. Maurice will translate the maps and we can load them into the unit. We will also need to modify your Stage 1 module when you are ready to install Stage 3. We will switch it to full RPM operation. We will have to issue two versions of any map we create, one for Stage 1 and one for Stage 1 with Stage 3.
2. It's not happy until you start the engine. Just turning the key on doesn't do it. It displays noise on the screen. As soon as you start the engine it boots up.
3. The SD card it uses cannot be read on a "normal" computer. I'm told it's not formatted with a file system - it just has data stored on it. Because of this you can't back it up, load or save maps to/from your computer, etc. You can still have several cards and swap them in/out. We may be able to come up with a method to read/write to it, but we don't have that now.
4. We have found no way to communicate with it with a computer. The only way we have found to load maps into it is to send them to the Stage 1 box, connect the stage 3, and load and save them to it. Conversly, if you create your own map with the Stage 3, you can save it to the Stage 1 and connect the computer to it and save it to the computer. A little "clunky", but workable for now.
So, it's an inexpensive display/programming device you can use in the car - lets you change maps on the fly. Lets you change the maps (tune the car). Lets you monitor various parameters (see post way above).
Yes, a small computer running the program can do a lot more a lot easier. Yes, that would be about 3-4 times as expensive.
Mounting:- We moved the display around trying to figure out where the best place would be. Looks like the centre of the dash, on top is best. You can use the Nav Tray or velcro. Advantage with the nav tray is it looks like it belongs there. Advantage with velcro is you can pull it off and stick it in the glovebox, if you're worried about theft (they're not interested in breaking in if they can't see anything worth stealing).
06-20-2004, 09:01 PM
#65
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a few questions, just for clarification...
With a regular stage 1.1 box and datacable2, I can take my car and the software to a shop and have it tuned to whatever 'edge' i specify?
all stage 3 adds over stage 1/2 and a data cable is the display correct? im not really interested in the stage 3 display...i may be if there's ever a way to integrate it into the OEM nav display, but for now, I'll be happy enough loading maps with a laptop. 95% of the time it will be on my street map anyway.
any screen shots of the software? I understand you can view engine parameters in real time?
what o2 sensor are you guys using to tune?
whoever was dealing with pettit...what are they charging? it's a drive for me, but I don't trust my car to the idiots up here in Orlando, unless there's a decent rotary genius up here.
With a regular stage 1.1 box and datacable2, I can take my car and the software to a shop and have it tuned to whatever 'edge' i specify?
all stage 3 adds over stage 1/2 and a data cable is the display correct? im not really interested in the stage 3 display...i may be if there's ever a way to integrate it into the OEM nav display, but for now, I'll be happy enough loading maps with a laptop. 95% of the time it will be on my street map anyway.
any screen shots of the software? I understand you can view engine parameters in real time?
what o2 sensor are you guys using to tune?
whoever was dealing with pettit...what are they charging? it's a drive for me, but I don't trust my car to the idiots up here in Orlando, unless there's a decent rotary genius up here.
06-21-2004, 10:25 PM
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You can tune the car with the stage 3, and you can select up to three maps.
Maurice has a Lambda Boy O2 installed, but he is starting to rely on the OBDII reader. He's working on a correction formula for the stock O2 sensor, as it is appearantly not correct at present.
Maurice has a Lambda Boy O2 installed, but he is starting to rely on the OBDII reader. He's working on a correction formula for the stock O2 sensor, as it is appearantly not correct at present.
06-22-2004, 07:01 AM
#69
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They are, but you require a laptop and the prog2 cable. RX-8friend was saying that you could use the cz-3 unit to change multiple maps as well as program the unit without an additional laptop.
You'll also need the ODBII Canscan reader, Maurice is working with Dan to get the canscan to be more accurate, then we could use the ODBII data to program the CZ unit. Maurice said the update for canscan will be available in about 10 days.
You'll also need the ODBII Canscan reader, Maurice is working with Dan to get the canscan to be more accurate, then we could use the ODBII data to program the CZ unit. Maurice said the update for canscan will be available in about 10 days.
Originally posted by smrx8
so stage 1 with the cable and cd are not programable? i thought maurice said they were ?
so stage 1 with the cable and cd are not programable? i thought maurice said they were ?
06-23-2004, 10:36 PM
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I'm running it on 2000 Pro. It's not a very intensive program. I suspect it will run fine on an older laptop - it WAS written for one with a com port, after all .
.
