logalinipoo

Wow man I give up, And digress to watching your trolling and getting no where. He might be a post ***** and I don't know how well 9K can tune an rx8. He knows the value of a good tune and knows enough not to blow up his engine.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

He is not comprehending man, he already has it all figured out. Tuning RX-8's is super easy.

logalinipoo

Yeah at first I thought he was trying. He just wants to argue his point and I am done with it.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Hey I resent being called a post *****, I prefer post madam

NA tuning is fairly straight forward once you have proper training (thanks to Kanes seminar for us) but I have never tuned anyone elses car for power gains. Of course I can block CEL's, change OMP settings, fan settings, etc. but I don't consider that tuning.

I can create a map and tune well enough to get it running well enough to get to Steve Kans dyno so he can fine tune and maximize things on my car and other turbo 8's we have put together. But boosted RX-8 tuning is a whole other ball game and I don't have enough experience yet to do that to completion. Which is why I let a pro with experience tuning boosted RX-8's do it and that is the smart thing to do unless you like blowing engines or having a poorly running boosted RX-8.

You can learn a lot from the info that is already here, but nothing is equal to actual tuning experience on this platform.

20,000 miles of boosted bliss here

logalinipoo

Lol, Excuse me Madam, yeah I never got in on Kanes web traning I can't find anyone willing to share the videos either. you?????

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

We didn't video it, we just flew him in. He is reasonable though.

logalinipoo

Yeah I remember seeing that. I'm still building, so I have a little time.

DogonCrook

Well since neither of you will address any of the points I made why don't you move along and pat each other on the back somewhere else.

Neither of you has even attempted to explain why standard practice doesnt apply to this car. I'm not trolling, your not saying anything. You just insist that the 8 can only be tuned by the illuminati but can't seem to explain why, it just is.. cause reasons...

During your break from engaging with the troll you should Google ve tuning. I'm not trying to learn I'm telling you your partially wrong based on, well everything written on the subject for every other car out there. Google it.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

How about you stop googling stuff about tuning and actually try tuning an RX-8. Then you will understand what it takes to get a solid tune dialed in on one.

logalinipoo

I addressed everthing you said directly so take your own advice.

the VE tuning you are refering to is on cars that use pressure based tuning. The x and y axis is rpm and pressure.

In an rx8 it is Load and RPM. Load is Mass based not pressure based.

logalinipoo

you need to google MAF tuning and learn the differance

Let me google that for you

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=MAF+tuning

DogonCrook

well you're wrong I am referring to cars with the exact same setup. I am asking you to explain why what works on every other car with the same setup somehow doesn't on this one. It simply doesn't make any sense. I am familiar with maf based tuning, I am familiar with everything you are saying, I am asking why you think an rx8 is different than every other car with the same setup. And ve tuning does work on an 8 quite well actually, and since as you have stated we are just removing trims, you don't need a dyno to prove it. give it a shot. The test of which method is better besides horsepower or torque would be who's car runs closest to commanded af, ve tuning does that better, (that's a fact) or it doesn't on this car specifically, but you aren't explaining why, and since no coast used traditional methods without mentioning any issues I am kinda leaning towards the conclusion you just don't know enough about it to say one way or the other. Again my question is why does that method specifically not work on this car, when it's standard practice on every other? If you don't know you don't know it isn't a big deal. Telling me how to tune is asinine I've tuned airplane power plants, i'm familiar with engine tuning, thanks. Your the one claiming something that is common knowledge on other cars doesn't apply here and in your answers your kinda showing you don't know much about any other cars..

logalinipoo

Umm I've already addressed that.

Show me a screen shot of another car with a load/rpm based ve chart, or hell just name the cars so i can look them up for myself. I'm not denying that there are and no one has said you should never change the VE map, it's just a part of the whole system. I have already stated the VE map in the rx8 is a pin point map. once you have it roughly tuned with the MAF. Then you use ve to fine tune it and get your afr's as desired.

The table marked as VE in cobbs software is not a VE table. If you get access to the true VE table you would be on the right track.

Maybe you just need to learn how to read. I have not once said that VE tuning will not work, I did say that it will cause your tune to go bad as soon as other factors change, but you know how the rx8 pcm works and have done all this before. And I know nothing. Who cares what you have tuned before. If you believe in this tuning method so much do it and keep redoing it a few times a year. I don't really care.

logalinipoo

Or just prove us wrong and do it then post the results.

I can't beleive I'm still going on about this. Have fun blowing up your airplane power plant. oh I'm sorry I forgot what we were talking about. Have fun blowing up your rotary.

DogonCrook

Ill just drop this here again you can verify all the information in it is true yourself.

"Adjusting MAF scaling is effective if the MAF housing has changed (such as with an aftermarket intake). If no changes in the MAF housing have been made, why bother with something Mazda got perfect? If your MAF is reading differently than what that table says, it means your MAF is failing and should be changed.

Yes, there are production variations, but you're talking like 1-2%.

The trouble with MAF scaling is this:

It is only effective for the VE curve you tuned it to (such as the load cells the engine sees on a dyno at WOT).

Let's say you have a MAF voltage at a given RPM and load where the engine has 50% VE. At that same MAF voltage at a different RPM/load you could have a VE of 100%. The actual amount of air entering the combustion chamber is much different between these two situations. This will throw your AFR's over the place in a situation like road racing, where the engine will see all sorts of weird load cells. (this is a huge exageration, on a stock car, you have variations of less than 15% between the lowest and highest VE). This leads to some weird behavior in transient or part throttle situations.

For drag racing it doesn't matter as much.... unless your air density changes. Then you're back to square 1.

The VE table on a stock car is quite good on an engine that fits the engineers statistical model for engine wear and other tolerances. If you had an engine that wore (and hence breathes) the exact same way as their average statistical engine does, there would be no reason to touch the VE table. We don't live in that perfect statistical universe.

Start throwing mods on a car, and the volumetric efficiency will change. You actually predict about how much more power your engine will make based on changes in the VE table. 10% more VE due to your mods, and you will see about 10% more power.

This is why COBB recommends that you don't use their stage 1 map on a car with mods. The VE changes are too big and you will go lean near peak torque."

logalinipoo

ok, you are a tuning god, and I know nothing. There you happy????

Now you've asked for proof a bunch of times. Where is your proof???

What other vehicle uses load based ve tables?

DogonCrook

Off the top of my head corvettes I am pretty sure do. As I said I don't want a pissing contest I am asking why 8 tuners do things different. Since no one can say specifically why I have to assume you don't know. Which is fine, I don't either. My proof is how every other tuner does it. And as you said we are mostly in agreement so I'm not even sure what your on about.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Tuning an NA 8 is a walk in the park for anyone with half a brain .... you have to f it up pretty bad to blow an engine.
Tuning a turbo 8 ... not so easy . I think this is what these guys are referring to when they say that very few tuning shops know how to do it . The proof from the perspective of the forum is all the f'd up cars that pop up on here that have been tuned by some 'ACE Rotary tuner ' who has tuned 1000s of other rotaries but creates a cluster f*ck the minute he attempts to tune a turbo 8.

What is hard about it ? Not much really - it's just that very few after market tuners seem to have grasped maf tuning in combination with a rotary turbo engine that used to be NA.Also , most of them have no idea how all the vacuum lines should be hooked up or how the intake valves need to be treated even though it's actually pretty simple ....... like anything ..... once you know how.

logalinipoo

Well ive done a bit of searching and the 2009-2014 vetts have VE tables that are based on rpm and KPA. Kpa is pressure not Mass. Would you like to try another?

DogonCrook

Have you tried ve tuning on this car? I mean your not familiar with it, and you seem to agree it's to some degree necessary. It's how I do it, it works, if someone who knows about it specific to this car has some input I'm all ears, but I'm not trying to go back and forth with you while you Google stuff. Honestly I can do that, I have done that, and the entire point of my comment is that the 8 isn't really unique, and that's pretty much confirmed so... Off to blow up my 8 as you put it. I may not have the ultimate tune (well that's not true I get one from mm ) but I'd rather have that then deal with this community of caustic try hards. Your not interested in learning anything. Maybe the 8 is hard to tune because the community is ****, secretive and stuck in their ways. Maybe your doing it wrong. Maybe somones got bad information. Tuning isn't about numbers and formulas and it's as much fun as driving so I'm not sure why some people here want to make it such a chore.

Logal I can't tell if your trolling or genuinely interested, but I'll post some numbers when I'm dialed in. Its cold now but it's Houston so we are getting huge tempature swings so I should be able to tell if the weather is throwing it off. I'll leave my Maf stock, get it dialed in wait for a temp shift and we will see. I hope I don't let the unicorn out lol.

200.mph

iTrader: (9)

dude chill the **** out. the guys here that you are arguing with know their **** and are boosted. tuning a f/i 8 is not an easy task

DogonCrook

This isn't a thread about boosted engines.

I'm not bent out of shape, I'm trying to say if your here to pump your ego, or act like some kind of gatekeeper of super secret knowledge, you can **** right off, I'm not interested in dealing with you, I doubt you'll enjoy me, so move along. Not a big deal, that's the internet. How this turned into a discussion about boosted is beyond me, but that isn't why team called no coast an idiot, and that's why i chimed in, because nobody backed that up, and haven't yet. Even if it was true, it's childish, but whatever..

200.mph

iTrader: (9)

my point is 9k and brettus both know about tuning their cars and can tune for n/a (easier) and f/i (much harder) both. but whatever man, have fun

bose

iTrader: (5)

I'm here for the gangbang.

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

This statement implies you don't have the mechanical fundamental knowledge to attempt a logical conversation regarding this threads topic.
Another great example showing you do not have the knowledge base to continue further, yet you do!
Only a handful of cars utilize a variable intake tract like an RX8, it was never previously used on any production rotary. Nor is it common on any other type of production car on the road until you get into the high end performance category. Are you even away of how it works? contrary to your belief it does not work like your vtec did.
Unless you have a vacuum leak post MAF, their is no logical or feasible reason why the MAF would not know exactly what has passed it, its flowing in a closed system, it knows the temperature and the weight. That will never change (of note testing has been done and the MAF vs actual air temp right before it enters the engine varies arguably at about 3 degrees, not going to make much difference)
Also the engineers that wrote the VE table did indeed know the exact data, unfortunately it was not using Cobb or any other aftermarket tuning software available to the public, we have no control on how this data is pulled off the ECU and displayed to us all we know is that the values are not a direct relationship.
MAF tuning is far superior to MAP based tuning solely for this reason aloneIts statements like this that prove you have very little experience in what you are trying to appear to be knowledgeable of.
Per Mazda specification and specification of the distributors, these sensors have a tolerance of up to 20%. Hence the need to calibrate them, for the everyday driver the OE tune is conservative and almost auto correcting resulting in a mute issue. The car will function properly and will not throw a CEL and resort to limp mode unless a variation of more than 20% is achieved.
VE plays to little role in an RENESIS because of its nature, the exhaust port is the limiting factor. Intake and exhaust aside NA you will never be able to increase this more than a couple percent unless you get into exhaust porting in which case you will be going through rebuilds ever 20-30K miles as well.
Cobb base maps are MAF tuned and run to lean on any engine you through them on regardless of stock or modded so no one ever uses them anyways. Also they say not to use it because it is MAF based and intake mods require you to recalibrate your MAF. Thusly leading a very use less tune to begin with even worse off.
At the end of the day tuning an NA RENESIS is not difficult, in fact you have to actively try to mess it up. I agree with some of you points regarding MAF tuning an AFR spikes it is what plagues most FI engines and leads to catastrophic failures due to pings. The fact still remains, the number we get and can adjust are arbitrary in themselves, we have no idea what the real values are as we do not have access to the tuning software that wrote them nor have any control on how any of the tuning software we have available interprets them. Because of that and the fact the VE on a RENESIS is limited internally (hence mods have no effect on it) their is very little to be gained from changing the VE tables but have an engine to lose if it gets messed up. This is why no RENESIS tuners that are proficient enough touch this table, in fact all of them highly recommend against it. The benefit to risk ratio is just not worth it