Stage 1
01-16-2014, 06:52 PM
#226
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Nothing is perfect, and to expect anything less from the manufacturer is asinine, but to say that compromises where made on this car when in reality they where not. Even from a tuning aspect it was dialed in from the start.
Chip tunes? If I have to answer that you really don't understand how complex our PCM really is.
As far as why people tune (respectively NA only) heres the main reasons
-Rebuild/Port work
-Better MPG (meaning they are detuning to get less performance)
-Intake/Exhaust Mods Tune to support MAF changes
-Throw a P0420 Code, buy a cobb to mask it, for the extra 300 bucks they tune it as well just to get a couple more HP.
Fact of the matter still remains no one is looking towards NA RENESIS and creating much more power than from the factory, you just physically can't do it. The most I have seen is 20 WHP from a speedsource car that was using all lighten internals, long tube header, Speed source Pulley w/ AC delete, MS intake. I also believe they had all their internals coated to reduce friction, and I think port work. All in all over 15K invested into an NA engine to get 20WHP.
A reliable FI kit is cheaper, and thats saying something.
Chip tunes? If I have to answer that you really don't understand how complex our PCM really is.
As far as why people tune (respectively NA only) heres the main reasons
-Rebuild/Port work
-Better MPG (meaning they are detuning to get less performance)
-Intake/Exhaust Mods Tune to support MAF changes
-Throw a P0420 Code, buy a cobb to mask it, for the extra 300 bucks they tune it as well just to get a couple more HP.
Fact of the matter still remains no one is looking towards NA RENESIS and creating much more power than from the factory, you just physically can't do it. The most I have seen is 20 WHP from a speedsource car that was using all lighten internals, long tube header, Speed source Pulley w/ AC delete, MS intake. I also believe they had all their internals coated to reduce friction, and I think port work. All in all over 15K invested into an NA engine to get 20WHP.
A reliable FI kit is cheaper, and thats saying something.
It doesn't matter if you can't make more power, if it doesn't dyno the same, it's ve isn't the same. Cause physics. We don't know the voodoo in that map but it is kinda ridiculous to say every 8's ve is exactly the same throughout all rpm ranges and loads.
01-16-2014, 07:09 PM
#227
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you're the one who started trashing people with your very first post. Then when I tried to talk to you about it. all you did is demand proof and not listen to anything at all. even though you contridict yourself multiple times and can't provide proof of your own.
I'm still waiting on another VE table based on load and not Pressure.
I'm still waiting on another VE table based on load and not Pressure.
And your wrong about corvettes, it sometimes reads map sometimes maf. There are others use the google.
01-18-2014, 07:58 AM
#230
https://www.rx8club.com/mountain-for...ssport-137463/
Check the post date on that. I clearly know nothing about AP tuning. I may be fairly new to the rotary world, but the physics behind an Otto cycle engine don't really change much.
I think a lot of the confusion comes from thinking that VE is the ONLY table I'm working with. It's merely the primary one. There are some places where MAF changes make more sense (lower flow velocities being one area). Tuning is a holistic thing. You can't simply change one variable and expect it to work correctly. VE is just where the majority of the work was done. Target tables were another. There were some small MAF changes as well.
I believe in fostering open discussion. Hell, I posted my damn map completely unlocked for the world to see. Do I have all of the answers? No. Do I have a lot of them? Yes. I've been tuning for a hot minute. Is there a lot of dogma and misinformation floating around? Hell yeah. Open discussions can clear some of that up.
VE WILL change on an NA engine due to mods due to changes in resonance in the intake/exhaust tract. Resonance is a huge deal. It's a big reason why Mazda went to all of the trouble of the VDI witchcraft. Anything that changes resonance will change VE. Simple changes in air/exhaust flow can also effect chamber filling.
I'm not here to have a discussion about fluid dynamics.
Just know that VE really really I promise does change with mods.
Boosted engines running the stock ECU is a big discussion for another thread. The approach will be radically different. This thread wasn't about a boosted engine. It was about trying to wring every last bit of power out of an NA setup.
I'll be in the boosted club soon. All of the off the shelf kits I've seen are crap. I've built plenty of inconel manifolds and have some ideas. Something in the GT30R range. Non intercooled. Blow through MAF. Small 5 gallon fuel tank in the trunk full of methanol. E-85 through primary injectors. Methanol through secondaries. All still controlled through the factory ECU/AP. It all hinges on my deployment schedule. It probably won't happen this year (I have a motorcycle to get running again). Definately will happen next year. Then we'll have a new thread about that can of worms.
I was having thoughts about a big nitrous setup, because everyone would tell me it would blow up and I was awaiting the lulz on the forum. The deal I had on a bunch of sweet direct port hardware fell through, and I decided I really did just need to suck it up and build more turbo hardware.
Check the post date on that. I clearly know nothing about AP tuning. I may be fairly new to the rotary world, but the physics behind an Otto cycle engine don't really change much.
I think a lot of the confusion comes from thinking that VE is the ONLY table I'm working with. It's merely the primary one. There are some places where MAF changes make more sense (lower flow velocities being one area). Tuning is a holistic thing. You can't simply change one variable and expect it to work correctly. VE is just where the majority of the work was done. Target tables were another. There were some small MAF changes as well.
I believe in fostering open discussion. Hell, I posted my damn map completely unlocked for the world to see. Do I have all of the answers? No. Do I have a lot of them? Yes. I've been tuning for a hot minute. Is there a lot of dogma and misinformation floating around? Hell yeah. Open discussions can clear some of that up.
VE WILL change on an NA engine due to mods due to changes in resonance in the intake/exhaust tract. Resonance is a huge deal. It's a big reason why Mazda went to all of the trouble of the VDI witchcraft. Anything that changes resonance will change VE. Simple changes in air/exhaust flow can also effect chamber filling.
I'm not here to have a discussion about fluid dynamics.
Just know that VE really really I promise does change with mods.
Boosted engines running the stock ECU is a big discussion for another thread. The approach will be radically different. This thread wasn't about a boosted engine. It was about trying to wring every last bit of power out of an NA setup.
I'll be in the boosted club soon. All of the off the shelf kits I've seen are crap. I've built plenty of inconel manifolds and have some ideas. Something in the GT30R range. Non intercooled. Blow through MAF. Small 5 gallon fuel tank in the trunk full of methanol. E-85 through primary injectors. Methanol through secondaries. All still controlled through the factory ECU/AP. It all hinges on my deployment schedule. It probably won't happen this year (I have a motorcycle to get running again). Definately will happen next year. Then we'll have a new thread about that can of worms.
I was having thoughts about a big nitrous setup, because everyone would tell me it would blow up and I was awaiting the lulz on the forum. The deal I had on a bunch of sweet direct port hardware fell through, and I decided I really did just need to suck it up and build more turbo hardware.
Last edited by no-coast-punk; 01-18-2014 at 08:12 AM.
01-18-2014, 10:37 AM
#231
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I've been playing with it. It has modifiers but it behaves completely rationally. Nothing crazy or unexpected happens. It appears to just be a fuel injector look up table. It's harder but you can tune out your trims using just that table.
The point was there's many ways to skin a cat, and some people are more interested in being internet tuff guys than helping the community, or being decent.
Thanks for your input though, I'll post mine in a day or two, that table is actually pretty usefull in the mid to high range. I see absolutely no reason not to use it. It's easy to chase your tail with it though if you don't watch how the load travels through the cells when deciding how to tweak it, and it's kinda **** at adjusting the transition out of low load areas.
My advice to everyone is use the table as part of your tune if your NA. If you want to figure out why, play with it and you'll see pretty quickly. People bitch endlessly about unstable idles, and surges throughout, and this is the table for fixing that. I didn't see a shred of evidence that this is a dangerous table. It's easy for anyone to see and I suggest people do. You'll learn a lot about your car, and a lot about some of these so called experts.
The point was there's many ways to skin a cat, and some people are more interested in being internet tuff guys than helping the community, or being decent.
Thanks for your input though, I'll post mine in a day or two, that table is actually pretty usefull in the mid to high range. I see absolutely no reason not to use it. It's easy to chase your tail with it though if you don't watch how the load travels through the cells when deciding how to tweak it, and it's kinda **** at adjusting the transition out of low load areas.
My advice to everyone is use the table as part of your tune if your NA. If you want to figure out why, play with it and you'll see pretty quickly. People bitch endlessly about unstable idles, and surges throughout, and this is the table for fixing that. I didn't see a shred of evidence that this is a dangerous table. It's easy for anyone to see and I suggest people do. You'll learn a lot about your car, and a lot about some of these so called experts.
01-21-2014, 01:53 PM
#233
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Quick Question, can I post dropbox links here? I'll have to post my maps, logs, and some graphs it would be easier to just throw them all in a zip.
More thoughts on the subject. It's easier to keep it open loop once you have the major spikes taken care of. Adjusting the tables was a lot more straight forward that way and confirmed there wasn't any major computer trickery going on. I'm tweaking just these tables to feel them out (something I would never do normally or consider a proper base) but it completely reflects what I would expect from this car. As the valves in the intake tract switch you basically treat that range as an entirely different table and cannot smooth into it if that makes sense.
If I were to just use maf scaling my Maf would be off by around 4% (give or take) when I go from open loop (I dropped the exit load to 0) back to closed loop, I would say the change is negligible enough to consider my maf dead on.
For a daily driver or on a track, it seems to me this method would give you more area under the curve, and therefore a quicker car. It also allows you to fine tune the areas you drive the most in. If you are going for peak power, or drag racing (wrong car for that) then it doesn't really matter and this is a waste. I'm not sure if doing this is taking power off the top, and I'm not going to pay to dyno it to find out, and I haven't compared it to a maf scaling yet, but since this allows much finer tuning, I would be shocked if maf scaling is superior in spite of this not being a true ve table.
When I post the logs and tables and such I'll have more to say. so far so good though, it's pretty close but it needs to be fine tuned (which will take more time than I have had) so it's more proof of concept, and I'd like to drill down into testing the function of the actual table than chasing perfect numbers over the entire range. That said for seat of the pants tuning, it's pretty damn close.
More thoughts on the subject. It's easier to keep it open loop once you have the major spikes taken care of. Adjusting the tables was a lot more straight forward that way and confirmed there wasn't any major computer trickery going on. I'm tweaking just these tables to feel them out (something I would never do normally or consider a proper base) but it completely reflects what I would expect from this car. As the valves in the intake tract switch you basically treat that range as an entirely different table and cannot smooth into it if that makes sense.
If I were to just use maf scaling my Maf would be off by around 4% (give or take) when I go from open loop (I dropped the exit load to 0) back to closed loop, I would say the change is negligible enough to consider my maf dead on.
For a daily driver or on a track, it seems to me this method would give you more area under the curve, and therefore a quicker car. It also allows you to fine tune the areas you drive the most in. If you are going for peak power, or drag racing (wrong car for that) then it doesn't really matter and this is a waste. I'm not sure if doing this is taking power off the top, and I'm not going to pay to dyno it to find out, and I haven't compared it to a maf scaling yet, but since this allows much finer tuning, I would be shocked if maf scaling is superior in spite of this not being a true ve table.
When I post the logs and tables and such I'll have more to say. so far so good though, it's pretty close but it needs to be fine tuned (which will take more time than I have had) so it's more proof of concept, and I'd like to drill down into testing the function of the actual table than chasing perfect numbers over the entire range. That said for seat of the pants tuning, it's pretty damn close.
Last edited by DogonCrook; 01-21-2014 at 02:23 PM.
07-01-2014, 09:24 PM
#234
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My tune is based off the stage 1
After all I changed, it is no where near what the stage 1 was to begin with.
Changed:
Fans
Injector size
Idle speed
Throttle fuel tables
A/F tables for gears 1-3 and 4-6
Lead and trailing ignition
VE tables
Dwell
MAF calibration
Those are the ones I recall off the top of my head.
Changed:
Fans
Injector size
Idle speed
Throttle fuel tables
A/F tables for gears 1-3 and 4-6
Lead and trailing ignition
VE tables
Dwell
MAF calibration
Those are the ones I recall off the top of my head.
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