my10ae

Hey guys:


Thought I'd chime in here since I'm "trying" to tune my auto 8 in another thread. A few Sunday's back Speed Racer and I were able to get some A/F tuning down to almost where we wanted it. We did not want to go too aggressive as the ECU would see the drastic change and put everything back to stock. We'll I ran with the changes for about 5 days and rechecked the maps and voila, they were going back to stock

Either we went too aggressive with the changes or something is up where the stock ECU is "smart" enough to see the changes that it starts changing the maps. Anyone have any idea's? We were supposed to do some more tuning today but with over a foot and a half of snow on the ground, we cancelled We'll be doing some more tuning in the upcoming weeks. I also had a question about throttle % at idle and WOT. I'm getting readings (from the CANscan) of 16% at idle and 78% at WOT. Does this sound right? Have any of you guys checked this on your 6sp? If so, please post up.

PS I am tuning at full RPM

rev-2-9k

oops did not read brillo


^^^^^^^^^^^^ what he said

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Guys,
Am I reading this correctly? I was on the verge of ordering the tuning package and I read this. I think I will now place this order on hold. Whats up with it not holding a tune? I hope the turbo boys are reading this. Although I can't imangine G reddy not being aware of this issue. If and when they break the password to increase the boost they be setting themselves up for real problems.
Damn.
olddragger

brillo

I don’t think its time to panic quite yet, there a lot of variables that could contribute to our issue. First, the turbo guys are likely richening their mixtures, and the computer may be fine with that, and not with leaning it out after a certain point. Second, I’m not sure what if any part the aggressive ignition maps play in this. Just because your not pinging doesn’t mean the computer might say uncle as well. Greddy in that interview with RX tuner did allude to issues with ignition and advance as to why they backed off a bit on the turbo kits power since they didn’t have cold enough plugs. In addition, greddy (ie trust) is a well respected company that I'd be willing to be money on, wouldn't release a turbo kit until they were positive that they had the computer variables under control. Therefore, we know the emanage works at some levels.

What I think we may have stumbled onto is the real reason the FI kits took so long to come out. We knew the computer was going to be a bitch to deal with, and maybe all the aftermarket companies spent months making sure that they had maps that would stay consistent. I’ve gotta believe that the greddy folks especially can whip out a wiring harness and get a emanage working on any car in a day or so. We got comfortable with the software and testing parameters in a weekend, so I imagine any aftermarket company could just as easily learn the system. However, as far as testing goes, there is no way to speed up time, and this problem we have found may have been the holdup. There may be some special “secret” range where the computer will live with the emanage changing the mixture. Bottom line, I’m not ready to freak out just yet, lets do some more investigation amongst those with the CZ or emanage.

One thing somewhat should also try is to log with the canscan their A/F and Ignition in stock form several times over two weeks, just to make sure that those are consistent, and we aren’t on a wild goose chase b/c the canscan software is messed up.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

i checked my a/f ratio about 2 months after i did my tune and it was still fine and now a good 5 months later i still can feel the kick i tuned into it...


I however did my tuning over a few weeks only doing 1 run a day basically at the end because i discovered very quickly that if you start the car up, do a quick run, shut it off and repeat a few times the learning mode of the ecu will adjust itself for aggressive driving (which is not my normal style of driving) and will go very rich on you in a hurry. PLus if you do too many runs back to back the cat temp gets hot and remains hot which seems to cause the ecu to richen things up alot.

brillo

Now this is good info, anyone else notice this?

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Check to see if your TP setting is gone......check the map trace. Mine did that once...then it will revert to stock A/F...

Speed Racer

Jason,

If you make the changes too large and/or over a short period of time the car will compensate with a long term fuel trim. This is very easy to see with CANscan and it also explains why one day your A/F ratios look good and a couple of days later they are right back to the stock levels.

I got a little over zealous with tuning my10ae's car and have data logs that show the base and tuned A/F ratios. I also have a log from 5 days later which shows that the ECU significantly changed the A/F ratios and it was actually running richer than where we started. It gets a bit frustrating when you feel like your are aiming for a moving target.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

That's why you only want to tune the open loop areas......they won't trigger fuel trims. In closed loop...it can negate adding 40% fuel. Does anyone know if the fuel trims carry forward into the open loop areas statically IE will a +40 at conversion to open loop result in that carrying over into the open loop fuel map??

Speed Racer

That is what we tried to do. If you look at the chart you will see that the A/F ratios on the 4-port engine look great until ~6200 RPMs. Then it goes pig rich and falls below the range of the wide band O2 sensor.

It took us about 10 runs (3% change with each run) before we were able to get the changes to even show up on the wideband sensor. Once we got the A/F ratio around 6-7k RPMs up to 13-13.5 we noticed that the 5-6k RPM range had gone pig rich. At that point the CZ map was all zeros in the 5-6k RPM range. So by the end of that tuning session we had made adjustments from 5k-redline with the biggest changes focusing on 6k+. When we finished the car was running noticeable stronger and things looked promising.

A few days later I asked my10ae to datalog the A/F ratios again and noticed that it was running pig rich again. Not only was it running rich but it started to misbehave about a 1k RPMs sooner than stock.

My plan at this point is to clear the memory on the ECU, zero the maps, and start tuning from scratch again. This time I'm only going to make a couple of small changes and I'll ask my10ae to live with it for a few days. Then we will do another data log, if the numbers stay the same I'll make a few more incremental changes. Hopefully after a few tuning sessions we will have a stable map with proper A/F ratios.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

question? SO as I understand it, to many changes, or too big of change , over too short of a time period can result in a sort of a oem ecu override negating your tune? Correct?
With that in mind what happens if you remove your unit then replace it later? Say a few days or so. Or if you just turn the unit off then turn it back on some days later?
ALmost makes you want to run a damn throttle cable on this thing doesnt it. (jk I know its a lot more complicated than that)
olddragger

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

It should only negate your tuning if you are triggering fuel trims in closed loop areas, then it will learn around the changes. I haven't had a problem with it tuning in open loop areas.

I can't see how it cares how fast you make changes in the areas that it doesn't do feedback based tuning.

SethMcMichael

I’m not sure if this has anything to do with this, but tonight i did some tuning and i found out that the closer you seem to get to 30 degrees of timing the lower the a/f ratio gets. I had a pretty good a/f map and then changed the timing and the whole thing went to ****.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

It's easy to do if your not careful with the part throttle adjustments. I've tuned mine down to 30% throttle in higher A/F areas....sometimes it will be in closed loop depending on the gear, and rate of change in TP.
How much total advance are you running? and where? I find that it tolerates it mid RPM's the best...taper it off on the higher RPM's..or where it tends to lean out in a few areas.

One thing I have noticed is that it seems to make a difference where a tuning run starts...it seems to carry forward a rich condition if it starts rich in the first place. That's why I'm trying more part throttle tuning...to try and stave off pig rich...so it is easier to correct

brillo

I've been wondering about this, I've heard that ~26degrees is about as much as you want to run, from RotaryGod, and I think the aggresive Ignition map pushes you over this number.

Rev_2_9K was using the stage 2 ignition maps which could account for part of our problem with the CZ box giving us consistent numbers. In addition, from what I have read in the latest issue of RXTuner, Greddy left the ignition alone with their turbo kit, another indication

When I get my unit tomorrow, I'm going to work on the A/F only first, then introduce some timing advance slowly.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Since no one has cracked the maps yet....we don't know what they have done. I can't help but think that due to compression, and other parameters of this engine...that they have used some retard in the ignition maps under boost.

Someone please get the password for this thing

nhk

Hi, this is the map that I am using for my cz unit. It is tune based on weather on San Jose. 50'F raining.

Anyway, I will post the graph tomorrow. It is more agressive map.

https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=103

I will do long run test (3rd/4th gear) this weekend if I can wake up early.

Hope it can produce the constant result.

RX3+5

Nice work!

Vince

nhk

This is the result I got from testing my map out in weekend.

1. Saturday night temp drop until 38'F , my A/F around 6.2 k go over 20.x so I retuned my map. (even during 4.5k rpm stock map). -
2. Saturday morning, I did 4th gear test until 7.8k only (coz the speed limit on highway is only 65mph *wink). A/F for 6.0k->6.4k is abit high (lean, close/abit over to 14.7)

As a conclusion, I retuned my map abit rich nowaday. When the map stable abit, I will upload the new map to replace my old map on this web. If anyone wanna used it, it is at your own risk. I tuned my car this time with the coolent temp around 180->190 degree. No more tuning on low temp like saturday night.

One more thing, although it is a open loop, the ecu still able to learn from the 1st run to retarded the timing for the 2nd run (using the same map for both run).

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

So tuned maps are sensitive to ambient temps? And, that means let the ecu adjust before you drive hard? This sounds a bit labor intensive in monitoring and changing due to temp fluct. I live in Ga and one day it will be in 30's ,the next day it will be in the 60's. Or am I thinking wrong? My head hurts.
olddragger

Racer X-8

Aren't there ambient temp & pressure sensors for the ECU to make compensations for? And if so, how does it compensate, knowing those conditions? And if we know that it does, and how, do we need to make compensatoins for those compensations? And if so, how should we compensate, knowing those compensations?

nhk

will the sensor knew how dense is the air?
For my case, the first run on cold condition always bad, then the second one will be richer than the first one. (it means the A/F go below the 14.7 for most of the case). Maybe I did not get the correct data. I will keep logging my cascan data.

MDRX8

Anyone with more data?????

Xyntax

Data? Well, here's something I discovered about my car after the Dyno last Saturday.

I ran my map first, and then stock stage 2 and then cleared out all adjustments to zero (equal to turning CZ off). Below is the graph of all those runs containing AFR, Ignition Advance, and Airflow.

There is one thing that buggles my mind right now. Looking at the comparison charts with my Airflow lines, I have this question:

"Why is there more airflow at the top end for stock (Red)? With CZ on, it never reaches that point. (Blue and Green)"



Now I'm thinking about doing a map without ignition adjustments. It seems like the RX-8 ECU is really good with ignition timing without CZ's adjustments. Just look at the flat AFR and Ignition Line it produces in the stock data (Red). That flat line in the red ignition is 30 btw.

Anyone have any ideas about this?

nhk

about the stock air flow more than the modified air flow. Maybe because the canscan get the data after cz modify it. It also means that the cz told the ecu we got less air in the engine, then the ecu inject less fuel in the system. what u collect from canscan is the data cz modified, not the original data from air flow sensor.

Wonder I am correct or not on this.