Latest Canzoomer Map flash on "L" ECU flash
03-11-2004, 10:39 PM
#151
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PS -- The decal on mine also says Level: 1 and it's a new decal. (It didn't have one before.) Level 1 = Stage 1.1., upgradeable. Level 2 = Stage 2. Level 3 = tune it yourself w/ his accessory stuff and software. All physically the same.
03-12-2004, 01:37 AM
#154
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Hey.. just curious if anyone has contacted mazda corp about the hesitation problem. I have had the "L" flash now for about 2 weeks.. love the mpg.. I am up over 20 now.. but this hesitation I dont like at all. It only does it when I accelerate hard in 2nd or 3rd gear and when I shift at 8500 or higher the car hesitates like a bitch and then the power kicks in.. The power seemed to be more seemless with the "K" flash.... After I shift in those gears and apply the power it dies for a second and then the power comes on...
Thankx, David...
Thankx, David...
03-12-2004, 05:45 AM
#157
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Has anyone else experienced this?
Last edited by rxeightr; 03-12-2004 at 05:48 AM.
03-12-2004, 09:48 PM
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OK, a few clairifications (I hope).
There is no Stage 1.1. My bad, I once said "maybe we'll call it 1.1". It's just Stage 1 (current). Visable difference is you have two leds visible on the front and a USB port. Caution, that is not a standard USB, so don't just plug something in and try to use it. It's for the special programming USB cable (sold separatly
.
The Stage 1s are now being shipped steadily, so more of you should get notification soon. I'm much happier with the quality of construction, though you will not see it externally. If any of you break the switch during installation, better return it for repair. If broken, it may not be reliable. There is a spring in the toggle that keeps the contacts together and locked in postion.
The car has a very good detonation prevention system. It greatly retards ignition if it detects any detonation events, and keeps it retarded for a few seconds (to let the conditions leading up to it subside). You will experience it as perhaps a strange noise (if it is serious enough) and the car "falling flat on its' face", ie. power dieing. So we have at least three reports of noise from the engine, some with and some without Stage 1. My opinion is you have now seen how good the PCM is at protecting the renesis from detonation. Was what you heard detonation? I doubt it. It is more subtle. Kind of like shaking a can with bolts in it. Not really loud. I suspect what you hear is the noise generated when you suddenly yank the timing to full retard (any play in the engine gearing will be taken up with a bump or clang). This is what the new detonation prevention system does. Those of us with 3rd gen RX-7s sure wish it was built into our cars!
The "L" flash takes the car close to this territory (to improve mileage by leaning out the mixture). If you experience a hesitation etc. try getting a tank of higher octane fuel. We would expect anyone close to sea level to be more susceptable as they are effectively running more "lean" (more O2 molecules per volume of air as pressure is higher the lower your altitude). We think the pressure sensor is inexpensive and may not be very good.
So, if you are at sea level you will slightly lean the mixture. If you put on a freer flowing exhaust you will slightly lean the mixture. If you put on a freer intake you will slightly lean the mixture. If you get the "L" flash you will slightly lean the mixture. If you install the Stage 1 module you will slightly lean the mixture. Add them all up and you could get it too lean. You will have to use higher octane fuel. If you want to run all these things you may need to richen the mixture. Tuning will be required. Hence the availablilty of tuning enabling hardware/software. You will need a wideband O2 sensor.
This is exactly what we have been worried about. Mazda scared us when we looked at what the "L" flash did. It had more benefits than risk, but it got us worried and Maurice worked out a new tune "just in case". This is something that normally happens when people start modifying cars. They go too far and have to "adjust".
If you are worried Stage 1 will not be usable in your car, don't be. We will fix it if it turns out you need the program richened. We will refund your money if you can't use it or are too worried to use it.
I hate to bring this up, as it is very inaccurate and uninformative, but perhaps we have discovered a "two mod" rule. Intake and catback are ok. Intake and Stage 1 are ok. Catback and Stage 1 are ok. Intake, catback and Stage 1 = possible trouble.
Perhaps now some of you who thought I was crying "wolf" in my warnings of Stage 2 suitability are now beginning to understand. It takes a certain amount of skill to properly tune a car close to its' maximum possible output. It's something that is fun to learn, if you have the proper outlook.
There is no Stage 1.1. My bad, I once said "maybe we'll call it 1.1". It's just Stage 1 (current). Visable difference is you have two leds visible on the front and a USB port. Caution, that is not a standard USB, so don't just plug something in and try to use it. It's for the special programming USB cable (sold separatly
.The Stage 1s are now being shipped steadily, so more of you should get notification soon. I'm much happier with the quality of construction, though you will not see it externally. If any of you break the switch during installation, better return it for repair. If broken, it may not be reliable. There is a spring in the toggle that keeps the contacts together and locked in postion.
The car has a very good detonation prevention system. It greatly retards ignition if it detects any detonation events, and keeps it retarded for a few seconds (to let the conditions leading up to it subside). You will experience it as perhaps a strange noise (if it is serious enough) and the car "falling flat on its' face", ie. power dieing. So we have at least three reports of noise from the engine, some with and some without Stage 1. My opinion is you have now seen how good the PCM is at protecting the renesis from detonation. Was what you heard detonation? I doubt it. It is more subtle. Kind of like shaking a can with bolts in it. Not really loud. I suspect what you hear is the noise generated when you suddenly yank the timing to full retard (any play in the engine gearing will be taken up with a bump or clang). This is what the new detonation prevention system does. Those of us with 3rd gen RX-7s sure wish it was built into our cars!
The "L" flash takes the car close to this territory (to improve mileage by leaning out the mixture). If you experience a hesitation etc. try getting a tank of higher octane fuel. We would expect anyone close to sea level to be more susceptable as they are effectively running more "lean" (more O2 molecules per volume of air as pressure is higher the lower your altitude). We think the pressure sensor is inexpensive and may not be very good.
So, if you are at sea level you will slightly lean the mixture. If you put on a freer flowing exhaust you will slightly lean the mixture. If you put on a freer intake you will slightly lean the mixture. If you get the "L" flash you will slightly lean the mixture. If you install the Stage 1 module you will slightly lean the mixture. Add them all up and you could get it too lean. You will have to use higher octane fuel. If you want to run all these things you may need to richen the mixture. Tuning will be required. Hence the availablilty of tuning enabling hardware/software. You will need a wideband O2 sensor.
This is exactly what we have been worried about. Mazda scared us when we looked at what the "L" flash did. It had more benefits than risk, but it got us worried and Maurice worked out a new tune "just in case". This is something that normally happens when people start modifying cars. They go too far and have to "adjust".
If you are worried Stage 1 will not be usable in your car, don't be. We will fix it if it turns out you need the program richened. We will refund your money if you can't use it or are too worried to use it.
I hate to bring this up, as it is very inaccurate and uninformative, but perhaps we have discovered a "two mod" rule. Intake and catback are ok. Intake and Stage 1 are ok. Catback and Stage 1 are ok. Intake, catback and Stage 1 = possible trouble.
Perhaps now some of you who thought I was crying "wolf" in my warnings of Stage 2 suitability are now beginning to understand. It takes a certain amount of skill to properly tune a car close to its' maximum possible output. It's something that is fun to learn, if you have the proper outlook.
Last edited by RX-8 friend; 03-13-2004 at 05:26 AM.
03-13-2004, 01:29 AM
#161
Squishy Like a Lufa?
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any idea when the "new" stage 1 and the L flash dyno's might be available?
I keep hearing about more power over all, not just 5K RPM and above, but nothing more concrete.
Just interested, I am going to buy it anyways.
I keep hearing about more power over all, not just 5K RPM and above, but nothing more concrete.
Just interested, I am going to buy it anyways.
03-13-2004, 02:26 AM
#163
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I think that if you can touch the Ocean then you're at sea level....
If you are at the top of a mountain and see clouds 10 feet above your head, you're probably not at sea level..
If you are at the top of a mountain and see clouds 10 feet above your head, you're probably not at sea level..
Originally posted by RX-Nut
dang, how do you know what level you're at? I'm in Hawaii, that would probably make me real close to sea level. Does that mean no CZ for me.. hmmmm
dang, how do you know what level you're at? I'm in Hawaii, that would probably make me real close to sea level. Does that mean no CZ for me.. hmmmm
03-13-2004, 02:32 AM
#164
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well then.. I'm sea level alright.. haha, as close as one could possibly get I reckon.
Dang with this thread.. makes me not want to even touch the CZ with a 10 foot pole then.
Dang with this thread.. makes me not want to even touch the CZ with a 10 foot pole then.
03-13-2004, 02:39 AM
#165
Humpin legs and takin nam
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Rx-8 nut...
I'm going to get my unit next week and hook it up. I'll let you know what I experience. I have the L flash.. I'm at sea level.
Genom (i think)also has the L flash, new stage I, is at sea level and does not seem to have any problems yet. There are a couple others who have/about to install Stage I with L flash at sea level..
Just be patient, it may be an isolated incident. Also, as stated above, mods might make a diff.. I can test this too as I have an aftermarket intake that is not currently installed in my 8.
I'm going to get my unit next week and hook it up. I'll let you know what I experience. I have the L flash.. I'm at sea level.
Genom (i think)also has the L flash, new stage I, is at sea level and does not seem to have any problems yet. There are a couple others who have/about to install Stage I with L flash at sea level..
Just be patient, it may be an isolated incident. Also, as stated above, mods might make a diff.. I can test this too as I have an aftermarket intake that is not currently installed in my 8.
03-13-2004, 05:40 AM
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That's a good policy for a beginner (if that is what you are). One mod at a time. I edited my post above with more info. I thought up while sleeping (well, laying awake thinking .
Maurice's car has stock intake and exhaust. The Stage 1 tune was developed just below 1000 metre elevation, but the temperature was low (which means lean - more O2 per volume of intake). We think it was conservative enough to be ok at sea level. In Hawaii you have very high humidity, and that will effectively "richen" the mixture, so I suspect it would be fine.
We are going to do a dynojet run as soon as we can. Been rather busy just getting the units out the door. Last night we got lots more snow, so it's still winter, and that tends to slow us down a bit.
.Maurice's car has stock intake and exhaust. The Stage 1 tune was developed just below 1000 metre elevation, but the temperature was low (which means lean - more O2 per volume of intake). We think it was conservative enough to be ok at sea level. In Hawaii you have very high humidity, and that will effectively "richen" the mixture, so I suspect it would be fine.
We are going to do a dynojet run as soon as we can. Been rather busy just getting the units out the door. Last night we got lots more snow, so it's still winter, and that tends to slow us down a bit.
03-13-2004, 08:02 AM
#168
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Good point about the humidity.. That may be why people in Florida are not reporting any problems, despite being at sea level.
Originally posted by RX-8 friend
That's a good policy for a beginner (if that is what you are). One mod at a time. I edited my post above with more info. I thought up while sleeping (well, laying awake thinking.
Maurice's car has stock intake and exhaust. The Stage 1 tune was developed just below 1000 metre elevation, but the temperature was low (which means lean - more O2 per volume of intake). We think it was conservative enough to be ok at sea level. In Hawaii you have very high humidity, and that will effectively "richen" the mixture, so I suspect it would be fine.
We are going to do a dynojet run as soon as we can. Been rather busy just getting the units out the door. Last night we got lots more snow, so it's still winter, and that tends to slow us down a bit.
That's a good policy for a beginner (if that is what you are). One mod at a time. I edited my post above with more info. I thought up while sleeping (well, laying awake thinking
.Maurice's car has stock intake and exhaust. The Stage 1 tune was developed just below 1000 metre elevation, but the temperature was low (which means lean - more O2 per volume of intake). We think it was conservative enough to be ok at sea level. In Hawaii you have very high humidity, and that will effectively "richen" the mixture, so I suspect it would be fine.
We are going to do a dynojet run as soon as we can. Been rather busy just getting the units out the door. Last night we got lots more snow, so it's still winter, and that tends to slow us down a bit.
03-13-2004, 10:24 AM
#169
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Just to confirm I am at sea level, have the L firmware, have a Greddy exhaust and the stage 1. No intake mods. No problems so far after a VERY hard 300 miles using both 89 and 93 octane gas.
03-13-2004, 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by RX-Nut
well then.. I'm sea level alright.. haha, as close as one could possibly get I reckon.
Dang with this thread.. makes me not want to even touch the CZ with a 10 foot pole then.
well then.. I'm sea level alright.. haha, as close as one could possibly get I reckon.
Dang with this thread.. makes me not want to even touch the CZ with a 10 foot pole then.
03-13-2004, 10:42 PM
#172
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RX-Nut
The couple of times I was in Hawaii I'm pretty sure I went from Sea Level to 4,000' several times a day. Run up to Haleakala and you are at 8,000'. Drive up to the turn around at the Onizuka Astronomy Center, short of the Mauna Kea peak and you are at 9000'. You live in CO? then don't count on staying at 5000 in Denver unless you don't plan any trips. My point is, don't count on one elevation. And with Hilo getting 200 to 300" of rain each year and the Kona coast getting 10 to 15", I wouldn't count on just seeing one humidity level either.
The couple of times I was in Hawaii I'm pretty sure I went from Sea Level to 4,000' several times a day. Run up to Haleakala and you are at 8,000'. Drive up to the turn around at the Onizuka Astronomy Center, short of the Mauna Kea peak and you are at 9000'. You live in CO? then don't count on staying at 5000 in Denver unless you don't plan any trips. My point is, don't count on one elevation. And with Hilo getting 200 to 300" of rain each year and the Kona coast getting 10 to 15", I wouldn't count on just seeing one humidity level either.
Last edited by islandsoon; 03-13-2004 at 10:53 PM.
03-15-2004, 01:38 AM
#174
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Originally posted by Scotchee
I'm confused about your fuel economy results:
1. I was under the impression that your maps only adjust "wide-open throttle" conditions which are 85% or greater throttle positions. I wouldn't think that the throttle would be open that far on cruise control going 84-90 mph so why is there a difference between old Stage1 map and NEW Stage1 map?
2. If your Stage1 kit is now making adjustments for partial throttle conditions (like I would expect when using cruise control), won't the car's ECU "learn" about your adjustments and "correct" away your new partial throttle maps?
I'm confused about your fuel economy results:
1. I was under the impression that your maps only adjust "wide-open throttle" conditions which are 85% or greater throttle positions. I wouldn't think that the throttle would be open that far on cruise control going 84-90 mph so why is there a difference between old Stage1 map and NEW Stage1 map?
2. If your Stage1 kit is now making adjustments for partial throttle conditions (like I would expect when using cruise control), won't the car's ECU "learn" about your adjustments and "correct" away your new partial throttle maps?
If you only adjust fuel/air ratios under closed loop mode, partial throtlle under 80%, the ECU will try to adjust to 14.6, so you gain little or nothing.
BUT, one can also do some useful things with ignition timing.
And by setting it up so that when cruise control is on we crank up a bunch of advance, we can gain quite a bit on highway runs.
Also, the one side effect we get from the use of more ignition adjustment is that we are able to get a bit more power, with a LESS lean mixture, and keep the exhaust gas temps lower.
This means less risk of catalytic converter damage, at higher outputs than we had before.
That was one of the big reasons we decide to buld ( or rebuild of you send us back an older unit) ALL units as what was originally planned to be our Stage2 design.
The benefits to be had with the ignition control were such that it was so much better than before that we felt there was no point doing it the old way.
Plus the new builds have the programming port, and the connector for rpm output, so they are Stage3 ready.
Simply plug in the Stage3 hardware and you are set.
Multi-map on the fly, in-car fine adjustment on the tune, and boost application controls at your fingertips.
03-15-2004, 09:17 PM
#175
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Today I took my 8 in for the recall. I also had them do an oil change as I just reached 3k. While in I requested that they perform a reflash on the PCM. I stated that I had some rough idling in cooler weather and since cooler weather here in Texas is like 45, I didn't think this should be doing so. I mentioned that I heard about the reflash online and politely asked them to reflash it.
Without hassle and with a smile the dealership performed the reflash and I have verified it. Written on the service ticket was the following Description.
____
Customer Reports: Car is running rough in cool weather. Client requests to have the pcm reflashed.
Caused by: road test vehicle
Corrected by F0010XfX: Powertrain Control Module Reflashing.
F0010XFX 0.3hrs Reflash PCM with the latest updates to pcm program.
____
I am very pleased that they did as I requested as I am looking forward to receiving my Stage 1 from Maurice within the next few weeks.
As for noticing any difference. I took the 8 out and drove about 50 miles tonight. Had some hard accelerations with both DSC off and on. It seems to me that with the DSC off I can tell a bit of a difference but it could be in my head. I'll be watching the smoot build up on the tail pipes and carefully mapping my fuel economy. Sucky thing is, I filled up a day or so before taking it in and I didn't look at the gauge before they took the car. The reflash reset the Trip odometer and so I'll have to wait for a full tank to see the difference. First tank I haven't kept track of. Oh well.
I know this is probably old news to most of you, but thought I'd add to the chorus.
Without hassle and with a smile the dealership performed the reflash and I have verified it. Written on the service ticket was the following Description.
____
Customer Reports: Car is running rough in cool weather. Client requests to have the pcm reflashed.
Caused by: road test vehicle
Corrected by F0010XfX: Powertrain Control Module Reflashing.
F0010XFX 0.3hrs Reflash PCM with the latest updates to pcm program.
____
I am very pleased that they did as I requested as I am looking forward to receiving my Stage 1 from Maurice within the next few weeks.
As for noticing any difference. I took the 8 out and drove about 50 miles tonight. Had some hard accelerations with both DSC off and on. It seems to me that with the DSC off I can tell a bit of a difference but it could be in my head. I'll be watching the smoot build up on the tail pipes and carefully mapping my fuel economy. Sucky thing is, I filled up a day or so before taking it in and I didn't look at the gauge before they took the car. The reflash reset the Trip odometer and so I'll have to wait for a full tank to see the difference. First tank I haven't kept track of. Oh well.
I know this is probably old news to most of you, but thought I'd add to the chorus.