Flashwing

Nitrous is a great pick-me-up but I don't normally suggest it out of the gate to everyone.

I can say on my current Nitrous setup I pulled out 35whp and 40 lb/ft of torque. difference.

blackenedwings

You would be surprised. There will always be cars out there with more power, but I've found very few cars with the same combination of handling and power. A turbocharged 8 is an entirely different car from a naturally aspirated one.

cliffkemp

I agree with all but #2 and you left out wheels too.

I will say this again, I have worked with electricity for my whole working life making wire at Southwire. I make the wire that is in these cars. Electricity is not hard to understand. As it relates to transformers, which, we have dozens of them that operate at high voltage and amperes as well, the stock coils are just fine for NA use. I am not knocking BHR by any means as their system has a purpose for FI and I am sure that they do well. I do have a problem with people that think the stock coils are crap without knowing the truth about why they act the way they do so, I am going to explain it to people in a simple form.

The rotary engine sits on its side and therefore, the connections at the plugs are horizontal. Even though the engine has less vibration, it still has some nonetheless. The stock wires don't have that good of a connection at the plugs and is why you can see some discoloration on the end of the sparkplugs when you change a set and you normally rev the fool out of the car (that covers pretty much every owner). Over time (could be a week could be years) the vibration combined with a bad connection or poor connection (you may not even be aware of it nor can you see it but the proof is there when you change the plugs and/or notice a significant power loss either driving or on the dyno) will start to arc slightly at the plug ends. By this time, the wires and coils will be heating beyond their 'normal' range. So what does this all mean?

It means that, the wires can take more of a licking than the coils themselves and something has to give with the increase temperature due to the waning connections at the plugs, due to the placement of the engine. At high rpms, the coils (mini transformers) will have to work harder to bridge the gap at the plugs due to more resistance from the waning connection. In electrical terms, what is resistance? Ohms right? When you have more resistance, what goes up? Amperes. Amperes or amps is the heat. As the heat rises, the coils will begin to overheat and thus will start to function improperly by missing on topend where the most voltage is used.

It has been proven time and time again on dynos that simply providing a better spark will not give more hp. It will as said by a few in here, restore lost hp if you stock coils are not firing as they should. My coils lasted nearly 60k miles and I have just replaced them and the car is running fine and was running decent before I replaced them anyway. I just wanted to make it crystal clear that having a more powerful spark will not give any more hp, none, zero, zip to a car that has properly functioning coils. It will restore lost hp if the coils were not functioning properly for what ever reason and will agree with that wholeheartedly.

Lastly, why not mention wheels. If you get light wheels for the 8, you get double the pleasure. Stock wheels weigh in at 22lbs or 10kg. I have seen some for sale that are close to 16lbs. If you lose 6lbs per wheel, the weight of the car goes down 24lbs and is like getting about (i know this is debateable) 2.4 hp for free. The double dip come from losing it in the form of unsprung weight. The suspension will be a big more lively due to not having to work as hard to stay glued to the road and less rotational mass to move to get going. This is better bang for the buck than just about anything else as it helps in 3 ways actually.

I will also say again. I have the ap pulley and according to the dyno, I gained 6 hp for $160 installed. I have yet to see anything compare as far as dollars spent vs hp gained for an NA mod. To each their own.

PhillipM

The pulleys and flywheel very much depend on how the car was dyno'd, they're both mods that reduce the amount of drag whilst the engine is in an acceleration state, so a steady state or slow pull dyno won't show the same gains that are apparent in say, a second gear pull.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

the problem in general is that everybody who has zero to minimal direct experience with what they're proposing thinks they're an expert ...

sure, tell people to bridgeport their NA Renesis even though there is zero info to back it up, all while ignoring everything else that should be done inside the engine while it's apart ...

sure, tell them to illegally delete the cat converter even though it's illegal, pollutes the environment, and there are alternatives that avoid those issues and make the same power ...

I could have called out more replies if I wanted to continue climbing through this stinking pile of BS, but this one served the general purpose with minimal effort, it's not personal which is why I deleted the username from the quote

to the OP, do yourself a favor and try to figure out who knows and who blows around here first, it's a needle in the haystack approach for sure but posing a general question like this for public opinion is guaranteed to be more misleading than informative

cliffkemp

I have the dyno for each of my mods that was done in fifth gear at dynolab inc. The only mods I didnt do a dyno run for is the I/E cause the exhaust was heavier than stock and negated any gains that it was supposed to have. It is the RB one and I like the way it looks and less so how much hp it may have given me. When I had the AP pulley put on, I went to go and dyno it that day. I know that weather plays a factor and the tank of gas has some significance so, I cannot say that the jump from 185.3 to 190.9 was 100% of the pulley but, it is what the dyno said so that is all I have to work with. I gained about 2 wtq with it as well. Remember this was a 5th gear pull to 150+mph.

I agree with Team in that you really have to look around to see who might be spitting out BS. Before some speak something to be absolute fact, make sure you have 'good and repeatable' facts to back it up and not just take someone's word for it or post it to be true just cause you say it is. I dont know anything about the Accessport so, I cannot comment on it. I have seen repeatable results with wheels, pulleys and, flywheel that are repeatable and the results vary based on the baseline and condition of the engine as well as a few other factors.

mzbenz

i weigh 93 lbs...so i'm already a little faster than anybody hehe

PhillipM

My car's only 1600lb including a full tank of gas, so I think I've got you beat there even if I only eat burgers for a year.

dozer

iTrader: (3)

93 pounds! youre a spinner

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

I have also done most of the below and concur with Jedi that they provide the best NA bang for the performance buck.

Flashwing

Now there's a modification that few people really understand yet think it really provides performance benefits.

The guy who did the initial testing for the AP pulley is a friend of mine. The dyno numbers published for advertising purposes are false. The dyno was calibrated incorrectly and thus showed an approx 8whp to 10whp increase over the baseline. After the car was dyno'd again they found only a 3whp increase which could simply have been because of a warmed drivetrain.

On the flip side you underdrive your electrical system and your water pump both of which are already under powered as it is. I ran with the AP pulley for 2 years along with "lightweight" pulleys on the water pump and alternator. No difference in drive ability that I can speak of.

However, using the dyno as a means of justifying a purchase shows simply that one doesn't understand the purpose of the dyno or even how it relates to the car.

Peak power is not the most important thing people should focus on. Focusing on "the area under the curve" is.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Choosy mothers choose Jif.
4 out of 5 dentists surveyed recommend Trident gum for their patients who chew gum.
Ribbed for her pleasure.
Nearly 300 owners of N/A RX-8's can't all be idiots, can they?

cliffkemp

I didnt believe the 8-10 whp. My car is a base model and I dont have an amp or anything like that to power. My car has never run hot and have been running the AP for about 2 years myself. My quote was max hp but area under the curve was increased on average of 2-3 whp til 7200 at which it rose to 6 by 8300. I have both graphs right here in front of me. Wtq was about 2-3 throught the whole curve and up to nearly 4 by redline. It is a top end producing product. The higher up the curve, the more the gains were but there was consistant gains the whole way.

I will say that when I do a dyno run, I do it a certain way so that the numbers are repeatable and consistant.

Flashwing

Clearly the process you're using to evalute the parts and dyno numbers is excellent. In fact, your process is much more scientific than almost all of the vendors out there that make parts like this.

That being said, you should know that Black Halo Racing has followed a process nearly as scientific as the one you described for evaluating any performance or durability gains with our own ignition kit.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

LOL I'd like to think not.

I'm an electrical engineer and the single best thing I did for my 8's NA performance was to upgrade my electrical/ignition system from end to end - including the BHR system. Closely followed by the MazdaManiac AP tune.

cliffkemp

I just want to clear this up. I believe the stock coils are good but, the connections at the sparkplugs are terrible and cause the coils to go out prematurely due to the bad connections that I described earlier. I also believe that the main problem is the design as the engine's plugs are on the side and are subjected to shakes and vibrations that will help the already poor connections become worse. That being said, a good set of wires can fix this problem and the NA folks can be happy and not have coil problems anymore. The problem is, there are no good sets of wires out there yet, that I have seen (not saying they dont exist).

Lastly, the BHR ignition system has a purpose and, I am not against it like many seem to think. I believe it is a good ignition system that solves nearly every problem that could cause the coils to go out, mainly the upgraded coils can take a much better 'lickin' than the stock ones and therefore you dont see the problems associated with the stock system on the BHR system. If I may my car FI, I will consider them strongly as an upgrade to use then.

My point for those out there that missed the point, if the stock system is firing as it should (opinions vary) this system is not an upgrade to produce more horsepower, period. Some on here understand this. I know that BHR doesnt claim a horsepower gain. There are many on here that think that it does and say that it does due to being either ignorant or just stupid. This system's coils are powerful enough to keep the 8 running well even if the connections either from the coil to wire or wire to plug are not in that good of shape.

I changed out my coils, wires, and plugs last week. On the back of my second coil was a white spot that USUALLY indicates it is in the process of failing. That being said as well, the plug tip corresponding to that coil was slightly discolored ( not the electrode but the connecting end to the wire, that plug tip) The wire to plug connection was going bad and heating up due to the arcing, although slight.

I dont have anything against BHR, I just have something against the ones that say stuff without thinking or properly testing the results and stating them to be true. To BHR, I say anyone that is trying to better the rotary family of engines is cool to me. Keep up the good work

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

My Auto EXE wires have excellent connections ............. FWIW

chancejat

iTrader: (2)

dont wast your money. youll spend 2k and shave .1-.2 off you quarter mile. definatly not worth it. i wish i wouldve listened when i first got my 8. just get an AP from MM and your engine will last longer, also upgrade the igntion so you dont burn coils every year. beside that everything else is just sound(intake/exhuast) and like 5 hp.

Flashwing

Cliff, I can appreciate your theory on the matter and I'm not going to comment one way or another as to whether or not there are other contributing factors to coil problems. While the stock coils might be fine for N/A use it's clear that Mazda still left performance on the table.

Without going into too much detail I can tell you that we've already equipped an RX8 with our coil upgrade that had only a few thousand miles on it. That person has posted up a commentary about their experience and needless to say there was noticable differences.

What proof do you have to backup this statement?

Isn't that what you just did with your above statement? Have you properly tested the BHR ignition upgrade and determined that there's no gains to be had?

DubbsLuvs8s

iTrader: (1)

V=IR

Ohm's Law.

More resistance means less current means less power means less spark means less boom means less power.

Most likely, the power (times time, to be correct in units) you lose from less spark manifests itself in the overheating of the plugs.

cliffkemp

I hope so. I have only tried one ther brand so this is why I stated that the stock wires are not that good but, there may be some out there that are. I am picky about my car. I would like to have my car running as well as yours on day, too.

cliffkemp

Stock systems always have room for improvement. That is part of the fun sometimes.

Not much I can say on comment #2 as I was not there.

As far as proof that there are no gains against a properly working stock ignitions system, yes, I do have proof. I was shown a dyno that showed several runs with the stock system in place then, a corresponding run with the BHR upgrade and both dynos were nearly identical with the same hp graphs. Granted there are going to be fluxuations from run to run, they were practically identical and, yes, everything was done properly and as scientific as possible and no, not just one run just to say 'see, I told you so'.

Personally, if I upgrade my car to nitrous or FI, no doubt that the upgrade is probably the best choice as I have heard the Okeka coils are junk and even more expensive. Again, I am not against your product(s). Everything has a purpose and a reason. I agree with you and your team that, the coil upgrade is good for certain applications and should be upgraded when those applications are going to be applied.

DubbsLuvs8s

iTrader: (1)

Energy is energy is energy, whether it's electrical, potential, thermal, mechanical or whatever, the internal potential energy of the fuel is transformed to thermal energy (the boom) by the electrical energy (the spark) with an efficiency that is related to the energy contained in the spark. -> Less spark, less boom, less power.

Just for technical lingo sake, you build charge, and that creates a voltage (a synonym for voltage is potential, as in potential to make current move).

Correct, but it is not simply "it works or it doesn't." Not all sparks are created equal, and won't ignite fuel in the same way. If we waited for plugs to stop firing, we would only change plugs when we got a blinking CEL for a misfire. That's why we change plugs, a brand new plug will put out a more powerful spark and ignite the fuel the most efficiently.

That's actually happened to me. My first car lit on fire the first day I had it.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

The reason we don't advertise the BHR Ignition System as a horsepower upgrade is for reasons wholly separate from the idea that it does not. We have measured gains with factory dwell settings and even more gains with MM's altered dwelll settings so we know the factory coils are not optimizing the engine's power potential. We prefer not to discuss the matter for purely political reasons and nothing more. Further, there are more and more dyno shops around the country who were also skeptical, including HKS themselves, and we are pleased to have the local shops now promoting our product at no fiduciary benefit to themselves.

kennyfrc1

iTrader: (6)

Here is the best mod for the RX8.