Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Actually, white "burn marks" are not conclusively indicative of near term stock coil failure. See the TSB for inductive and resistive tests to be performed.

btw: not performance in the same vein, but more human-performance related is the AFE short shifter which should be on your near future mod list as well.

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the info - I guess there's a caveat to just reading threads on the forums. Everytime I see someone say power-loss, I see a post saying "look for burn marks on the coils"

I'll look into the symptoms a bit more.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Here's the TSB. You'll need a timing light and ohmeter to do both test evolutions.

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

Thanks again, Huey.

Weight loss is pretty important towards a N/A car. I don't really consider stripping the car as the solution for everyone, but weight reduction in wheels, brake rotors ($$$ usually), body parts (not too much here), and possibly bucket seats can be a good way to gain the extra oomph.

Unsprung weight in the wheels and brake rotors are especially helpful.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

A PM will be sent to the Original Poster to see what he want done about this thread. Most of what is being "debated" here is about minutia and not about Power Mods at all.
It may be severely edited or closed all together.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

^^ That's very true. The Lotus Elise owes much of its performance to low vehicle weight, to even include an option-out for heating and no option for a/c.

Note that the new Porsche Boxster Spyder is going the low weight route as well.

Even tho' unsprung, low weight wheels enhance performance on the '8 (the OEM's are reasonably light, but there are better, e.g. Enkei RPF1).

If you can't improve Hp, then lowering the weight is a good way to go. It's all about thrust to weight ratio.

btw: you really don't need to do the coil inductive test in that all it tells you is that you have some high voltage and it is at least flowing thru the cables, and you already know this in your case. Most folks haven't had a timing light since distributors went the way of the Dodo. But do the resistive test.

btw2: why close the thread; there's good topic insight, if a bit of minutia?

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

It's not up to me It's up to the OP at this point. It was his question.
80% of this thread is offtopic. Bringing it back on topic now and making it useful would take some heavy editing.
TeamRX8 said it best. "... do yourself a favor and try to figure out who knows and who blows around here first, it's a needle in the haystack approach for sure but posing a general question like this for public opinion is guaranteed to be more misleading than informative"

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

I don't blow. Does that help?

Flashwing

Can we leave the part about Cliff having respect for me? I don't get that often and it would be good to have evidence! Thanks!

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

You should ask a mod to sticky that single post

Flashwing

The only real advise I don't recall seeing in this thread is the fact that N/A mods of any kind made for power reasons are going to net very little compared to their large cost. I think the majority of modifications listed are the best ones to choose from but the overall gains will be small.

Take it from a guy who has spent thousands upon thousands of dollars chasing a 200whp barrier.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

No doubt, true - the $$$/hp is very high.

However, that doesn't mean the gains aren't worthwhile. When I finally got serious about N/A power, it was because I was autocrossing in STX. I did the mods to get a few extra tenths of a second, and I didn't expect them to have much of an impact on the street, from a subjective standpoint.

Boy was I wrong. My car went from 180 to 210 rwhp. In doing so, it went from just the wrong side of "too boring" to just the right side of "exciting enough." It's almost like Mazda knew what it was doing when they first specified/hoped for 250 (crank) hp. The car has enough zip now to be entertaining - it used to be, when I'd punch it, I'd chant to myself "Yeah, but it handles great." Now I just grin.

I'm not saying the car is now super fast - far from it. Big Hp guys will still want big Hp. But 210 rwhp is a good number, subjectively speaking, for the RX-8, IMO. It's not cheap to get there but it does make the car more fun. Of course, I have a 2004 Sport, which in stock trim is lighter than most other RX-8s out there, and I have made the car lighter still, so I suppose most owners should take this with a grain of salt.

And, for the record, the component that added the most power for me was a custom mid-pipe with a 100 cell cat.

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

I see this echo'd a few times from people who do racing. I'd imagine midpipe with a 100 cell cat, with either a custom single-sided catback or one of the mass produced ones (HKS) would net quite a lot of HP with a good tune, while keeping the car street legal.

Not to mention, you'd probably save a ton of weight there too.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Correct on all accounts, although I can't say for sure how much power some of the mass produced high-flow cats produce. Many of them are 300 cell, if I am not mistaken. FWIW, I'm still using the stock intake, but with a K&N panel filter.

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

Was it the Davesport CAT?

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Yes, it was the Davesport cat, which, along with a RB resonator, was welded into a RB midpipe. It was an expensive bugger in the end. Pics can be found in the STX thread in the Racing section - search on my username.

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

I believe TeamRX8 pointed out the Davesport 100 cell cat (which Nemesis linked), and suggested that anyone who wanted a high flow cat bring the 100 cell cat to a shop and have them fit it into a midpipe of your choice.

Regarding the intake, that's a very touchy ground for a lot of people, and I myself believe the K&N with a racing beat duct should be sufficient for a lot of things NA. BHR has an article on this somewhere.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

If you look at my torque curve and compare it to Team's, they are virtually identical up to 8,000 rpm, at which point my torque curve starts to fall off, where as his stays flat. Hence the 210 vs. 220 rwhp. The difference is presumably in the intake, header, and 3" catback (mine is a 2.5" Corksport). In the STX thread earlier today Team indicated that the intake (along with a tune, of course) was instrumental in getting to 220, but whether or not the intake would have made that last 10 hp without the header & exhaust that was already present is unclear. It's all one system and when you get everything working together properly, you will get results.

epikeddie

I'm not sure I understand this whole fascination with NA power. I've built my Miata with probably every imaginable NA mod in the book. If you're not really racing in a series that requires you to stay NA, why bother?

There's no magic mod that'll get you to 210 - 215 whp. Look at how much Eric Meyer, Team RX8, and others have had to spend (hint: exhaust flow) to get to those numbers. If I'm correct, those guys also are restricted by their racing class on what modifications are allowed. Part of which bans the use of forced induction.

I'm sure if their class allowed it, they would have no issues jumping on the forced induction bandwagon.....so they can stay competitive in that class.

I'm not discounting the merits of NA power on the track. Trust me. When you start messing with Alpha-N values blending TPS and MAP values to get your individual throttle bodies working right.....only to be destroyed by some kid that has an ebay chinacharger on his Miata - you really start to question if all my money was spent in the right place or not.

Let's see:

NA Setup - Long-Nose 1.6L Crate Engine from Mazda Motorsports Program, Solid Lifters, Shim Under Bucket Setup, Flyin' Miata Port & Polished Head w/ 5 angle valve cut, Wiseco 11.0:1 High Comp Pistons, ACR Main Bearings, ATI Damper, Knife-edged stock crank w/ full balancing, ARP hardware, Viton seals, Fuji Racing IRTB Kit, RS Aizawa Fuel Rail, AE111 throttle bodies, Pipercross air horns, M-tuned dual feed rail, Carrillo H-Beam Rods, and much more.

Total Cost: (I assembled this motor myself over the course of 6 months on an engine stand w/ all machining done by Flyin' Miata) $8900

I did this purely out of my curiousity and only obtained 139 whp out of this setup. Yes....the throttle response was amazing with the ITBs. But I had a very illegal car that's quick. But for about 1/4 of that money, I could've had a reliable turbocharged car and still been street-legal.

Like I said, if you're not restricted by your racing class - dont' even bother. I'm saving money for a turbo on my RX8 at the moment. Lessons were learned before.

PhillipM

That's the only reason ours has made the power it has, it holds onto that torque peak for longer, even though the rest of the graph is relatively similar to a stock '8,, just lifted slightly.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Different horses...

Your is of course a legitimate viewpoint. But I've known plenty of others, including people in the Miata community, who have removed their forced induction systems after a year or two in the name of simplification. I had a supercharged Miata and it was fun. But let's make no bones about it - bolting on some N/A mods and spending the afternoon at the dyno shop is a much smaller investment, time-wise, than going forced induction.

But yes, I may just go forced induction some day. It would be fun. And there is a class for it in Solo - it's just a much more expensive class than STX.

Speed costs money, pure & simple. But simplicity is also a consideration for many.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Another point worth mentioning - since I am using the stock intake & header, all my N/A power mods (mid-pipe, cat-back, Cobb AP) are directly applicable & useful in a turbocharged setup. The only thing I "loose" is the dyno tune. So, this stuff does scale, if you choose carefully.

Flashwing

My personal decision to stay NA has been one of reliability. Granted I have enough experienced people around me to solve problems quickly but at the end of the weekend I need to drive to work Monday morning. I couldn't chance having my car down because of turbo problems, engine problems or PCM issues. Only until a few months ago did I even have enough space to leave a car project overnight without taking up someone else's garage space.

The most important thing to remember is chasing power is an expensive trip. Just be prepared for that fact.

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

The way I understand it, having a midpipe and single-sided exhaust would be conducive to force induction afterwards anyways right? Same thing with weight loss techniques and flywheels.

Also, header design is much more applicable in FI too right? So most of these things being asked for in an N/A motor would work as well, and most likely increase the effect of a FI modification.

*edit*
You know, flash, I keep confusing you with blackenedwings

cliffkemp

the white marks are a sign that the coil(s) are getting hotter than they should and may still be working properly. Test the coil itself to determine if it is within specs based on what Mazda says it should be. Depending on the connections at the coil and plug(s) this may be the problem. Most coils have been misdiagnosed as being the problem. The fact is, the coil is designed to fail first. I have explained this before. Due to bad connections at either the coil or plug or both, the coil will start to overheat due to demanding more voltage to fire the plug. It has been explained before how this works. The coils failing is an effect of a problem that has been going on for a time. The coil on my car was white on the back side and it could be that the plug was not connected correctly or losely, in which case, would by my own fault. It could be that the connector was poorly made and yet passed inspection when the car was built. It could be many things and most people dont think about the acutal connections as they hear a click 'usually' and think it is all ok. As Huey and I agree, not all plug wires, even if the same maker, are built the same with the same precision. It really depends on if they followed thier ISO, if applicable, quality assessments. Electricity is not nice and will find the weakest link. Sometimes the end result is due to something underlying. I fixed mine by changing the plug wires to something that connects much better than the stock wire I had. Some will say that the stock wires are excellent, they may very well be and I got a bad set or one, in this case.

Best thing to do is to look at the connections and look for signs as to what is going on with your particular set. Either make an educated guess or, get someone that knows more about wiring.