Sigma

You won't see flywheel gains on a dyno because flywheels primarily only affect 1st and 2nd gears and no one does 1st or 2nd gear dyno pulls. But that doesn't mean that the gains aren't there. My Mazda6s has stock flywheel, my buddy's does not. Put the two on the dyno (we've done it) and their dead-on the same. Drive his and it's very distinctly faster off the line and very much pulls on my car. Of course there the difference was a whopping 10lbs off the beast of a flywheel that the 6s has.

You also won't see a flywheel have much affect on horsepower numbers, it has more affect on torque numbers which is what the RX-8 is lacking. A RB flywheel should be good for about 10lb/ft to the wheels in 1st gear and about half that in 2nd -- that's about a 8% gain or so off the line. And there is an immeasurable impact on the driving dynamic which definitely has some value -- could be positive or negative value depending on one's driving style.

And the CanZoomer is also a bit unreliable on the dyno. A 20hp gain is on the extreme of reported gains and the recent tuning by Mazda in subequent flashes has made most of the gains that people were seeing with CZ obsolete.

They both certainly have their pluses and minuses. If CanZoomer didn't seem like such a roll of the dice as the whether one sees gains or not (even with individual tuning), let alone gains of 20hp, I'd choose it. But, for my money, I'd take the flywheel.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

well maybe 1st or 2nd gear...

MadDog

That's funny, I don't remember hearing of anyone who was disappointed when they actually tuned it.

When I got the flywheel, it was nice. A good mod, but not a huge difference. Then I installed the CZ. Now I can't wait to hit the 6k RPM mark and feel the surge of power that it gives me. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Take it from someone who has actually done the mods. The CZ is a better mod as far as acceleration performance goes - hands down. I wish I could find it now, but there is a dyno done on a flywheel install. (Rotor, do you remember it? ) Anyway, it was litterally a -couple- of HP. I've seen a dozen dynos, G-techs, CanScan dynos, etc. that show 20HP peak gain with a lot of area under the power curve gained from the CZ. If you expect to see a large difference in performance from a flywheel, you are wasting your $.

-MD

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

I believe this was the most well informed flywheel thread with actual facts (but always overlooked...) https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...light=flywheel



I still don't understand why the CZ gets such a bad rep on this board - people go crazy for an intake that gives 3-5hp but won't even give something that will give you 20+hp the time of day... oh well

Sigma

That funny I hear it at least as often as I hear people happy with their CZ.

As I said, you won't see the primary benefits of flywheel gains on a dyno since most gains are in 1st, little in 2nd, and less and less thereafter and dyno pulls are almost always in 3rd.

But, looking at the thread posted, which does have 2nd gear pulls, we can see that the gain was a lot more than "a couple hp".

Gains in 2nd were 7hp/9tq.
Gains in 3rd were 3hp/6q.
One can surmise that the gains in 1st were roughly 13hp/15tq, perhaps even a few more. That's a lot more than "a couple hp". And it's available right off the line, not at 6000+ RPMs. And then of course there's the additional driving dynamic benefits of a more freely revving engine which are certainly beneficial to those that drive their cars hard but have little to do with acceleration.

And every single car will see those gains. Not some cars like with CanZoomer. CZ is great IF you have a car that actually takes to the tuning.

CZ is too up-in-the-air for people to want to blow so much money on.

It's like if there's an online retailer that offers far and away the best prices on something, but half the time you don't get your stuff and you're out the money. To those that get the item, it's a great deal. To those who don't they wasted their money.

At least when you buy your intake and get your 3hp you know that you're going to get that 3hp. The RX-8 has such a wide factory variance that some people get cars that take well to CZ because it was so crappy when they got it, and some people have cars that get nothing significant at all from CZ. If you're dynoing stock at 170hp -- you might can get 20hp. If you're lucky and dynoing stock at 190hp -- chances are you're not going to get anything close to that.

As Mazda has come further and futher along in their flashes the gains people are getting from the CZ get smaller and smaller and smaller. Yes, it was common to see people post of 20+ gains back a year ago when the factory tune sucked ***. But find someone posting 20hp gains with an '05 with an "N" or "P" flash. Tthe engine only has so much power to give in tuning on a stock motor, and as Mazda has gotten more and more of that power through its' own flashes, it leaves less and less for tuners to recover on their own.

Again, CZ is a great product if you're one of the ones that can get a good boost from it, or if you're going to do additional mods in the future allowing you to tune to get max benefit from each of them. But, if I was short of mod funds and had to choose one thing, I'd personally throw it at something that I knew was going to work.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

No, the power recovered by a lightened flywheel is not available "right off the line" as it increases with rpms (due to the nature of inertial loads) and starts out with no gain and you really don't get anything until after 5000 rpms.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

I'm on the N flash, I still am getting a remarkable gain. The factory tune still leaves ALOT to be desired - I have still yet to see ANY car with a/f ratio's in the 13's. Power differences are a combination of engine tolerances, flow, restrictions, and (but not only) tuning.


For less then the price of a flywheel and installation, you can have a CZ installed and dyno tuned to pick up more power then you ever will with a flywheel.

Sigma

The link that you yourself posted says otherwise.

At 3000RPMs (when the dyno began recording) the difference in 2nd gear is 8 lb/ft -- less than 1lb/ft shy of the peak gain at 5939RPMs. After 6000RPMs the gains decrease. It's also clear from the dyno that the 8 lb/ft gain existed long before the dyno began recording at 3000RPMs as well. That would most definitely qualify as "off the line" power.

What is a "remarkable gain"?

BlueEyes

600 dollars should be able to get you a racing instruction course. You would probably see more benifits from that then any 600 dollar mod.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Remarkable gain as in 25hp increase and instead of being able to just chirp the tires on the 1-2 shift being able to break the tires loose on the 1-2 shift and almost on the 2-3 shift (well the DSC kicks in anyway).....

I call that remarkable... not "oh it seems to feel faster to me"

RotaryManiac

I was able to break the tires loose on the 1-2 shift even before i installed the REVi.

therm8

While I agree that a good driving school is a great thing to spend money on, it's thrown out there too much. It's fantastic if you want to track your car. It will not make your car accelerate any quicker on the street (or anywhere for that matter).

DreRX8

Thats probably right--cause with the skill you'd be amazed at what you can extract out of vehicles.

BlueEyes

Maybe it won't help in that area as much, but it will help a bit, and depending on the school you may even learn proper 1/4 mile techniques. Certainly, however, decelerrating, and turning will be vastly improved. I guess if you're a stoplight racer, you might not get as much out of it, but who buys an 8 to race in straight lines.

I am always amazed at how many people mod their cars who cannot handle the car in stock form. I know everyone is reading this and saying, he's not talking about me, but I am. I do it too. People would be amazed at how much faster their car is if they could drive it better. I don't claim to be a great driver by any means, nor do I want to sound like I am on a soap box here, but, I have raced a lot and recieved a lot of instruction. Go to a track day with someone who can really drive, and one will quickly realize the benifits of driving instruction over mods. I easily cut seconds off the laptimes of many of my freinds who think they can drive and have big wallets for mods. It's pretty embarrasing, and has convinced many to go to racing schools. None of them have come away dissapointed. Something to think about.

Sigma

I wanna see this dyno of your stock RX-8 doing 210+ to the wheels with only a CZ.

That or I can presume that you were one of the less fortunate ones that has a lame one out of the factory and can benefit from some individual tuning outside of the factory flash much more than others.

As I stated, I dunno, what 4 times now? I don't doubt that the CZ can pull a guy dynoing a 'lame' RX-8 with 160hp up to a 180hp. What I want to see if a CZ pull an otherwise bone-stock RX-8 from 185hp to 210hp (on the same factory flash). I've seen lots of dynos with great CZ results from people who were dynoing relatively low to begin with(160-170) but diminishing returns with users who were dynoing well to begin with (175-185+).

So when I see a baseline dyno of 185hp go over 200hp with an CZ install and tune I'll no longer doubt the CanZoomer one bit. But I've yet to see it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist; just that I haven't seen it.

MadDog

Has anyone else noticed that there is something wrong with the HP/Torque numbers as given on that thread? They don't add-up HP=TQ*RPM/5250. That formula apparently doesn't apply to that dyno. :p Wish he had posted the HP graphs so we could diagnose that problem....


You do have some good points, though.
Lets not forget that changes in power or torque smaller than 2-3 (insert units here) are probably not significant due to measurement variance.

to have 15ft# and 13HP gain at the same engine speed you would be at 4550 RPM
If the engine is turning "more freely" while in gear, then it has everything to do with acceleration

agreed

I'd be willing to bet there is the same variance for the intake. Why wouldn't there be? It seems to me a lot of the variance has to do with the MAF which is directly in line with the intake. I believe the only way an intake would make more power is to fool the ECU (by changing airflow around the MAF) into thinking there is less air than there actually is entering the engine. So, the unit-to-unit variability would still be there for intakes, too.

Are you suggesting that the new flashes are giving 10+ to 20HP? WTF!? I don't think that's a reasonable statement. The one dyno that I know about saw a 3HP/3ft# increase going to the P flash. That might be measurable, but barely.

I agree with your points, in general. But having done both the mods, I would STRONGLY say that the CZ has a more tangible increase in performance.

Sigma

Agreed on most of your points, MadDog. Lemme respond to a couple...

Agreed. Saying that someone "will" get a gain from an intake is a bit hasty. I just believe it's much more likely than a CanZoomer giving 20hp. But, you're right, it's probably more likely that one will get at least 3hp from a CZ than they'll get the same 3hp from an intake. You probably get more of a gain (or loss) from removing and reinserting the MAF and reseating it than anything.

Oh no, I'm not suggesting that Mazda's tuned out all the gains. Not at all. But, taken cumulatively, they do add up to something of some significance, at least in certain portions of the powerband. Who knows just how much, as every car takes to them in a different matter, such is the finnickiness of the rotary. The fact that the bigger gains with CZ are becoming far less common and requiring far more work to get than they used to is evidence of that. It's not common to just plug it in and get 20hp like you could a year ago.

MadDog

cool brotha... cool.

BTW, do any of us actually have a job we should be attending to? :p

GrRx8MaZdA

you could hold your money to buy a turbo...:D
Serious now..I believe a good catalytic system(i love my canzoomer midp-4)is the best and most felt change in an 8 before fi....Also revi is very good..But for the money i would definately buy a catalytic system if i had to choose and i ll had some money....

TheColonel

Wasn't there some new super cat that came out in the last few months that showed some good gains? Let us not forget why we only have 238hp and not 250hp... they changed the cat... I agree there's much HP to be scavanged there. (and by much I mean 12... maybe... probably not that much w/ the newer flashes, but still more than the 2hp you'll get from an intake or the negative 5hp from the Typhoon, lol)

RotorManiac

guys, I dont have the time to read all the posts about the CZ unit, but I've read this file in the past
http://www.rxtuner.com/farticles/Can...dExplained.pdf
and I think its quite true. I'm not bashing the CZ but I think the results differ from car to car...
because for me, tuning it is hard (maybe impossible) I think its not the ideal mod for everyone at that price range...

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

not mine but...
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...9&page=3&pp=15

-shrug-

rx8wannahave

Just save up a little bit more and get all 3 or them (CZ, Mid Pipe, and REVi) or...better yet save up a little more and get all 4 (CZ, Mid Pipe, REVi, and flywheel)

Can we all just get along? lol

Personally, when the time comes for me to mod my 8 I'm going to save up and stick several mods on at once to REALLY feel a difference. I rather save up and get smacked in the face with more power than to do it little by little reducing the JOLT of more HP

But...who said I'm patient?

Let it breath better, let it fart louder, teach it to use it's food better, give it better shoes, make it's brain smarter (the driver), make it more flexable (handling), and lose some weight...

Now that, will make a much better RX8!

maxrx8

hey rx8wannahave, I like what you have to say on your avatar.

I just took the plunge and for about 600 bills, I got the Revi intake and the rp short shifter.

That will make what I do with the 8 a whole like better. The other day I was trying to beat a car going up a hill (the right hand lane would soon go bye bye), which I did with no problem, but when I went from 2nd to 3rd I missed, but didn't accelerate (didn't press the pedal) which would have wound that thing up something. That was a little nail bitting because I had to negotiate a curve at the same time. Poor me

I think this will smooth everything out. I am hearing a lot of good reviews. It seems as though RP did some good work.

Now if he can pull through with the AFSC, then maybe that will be the ticket. :D or the way to get a ticket :p

Peace, and Grace. NOTW

Bill